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players that if they announced their retirement today would be hall of famers

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Old
12-19-2007, 08:57 PM
  #1
vadim sharifijanov
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players that if they announced their retirement today would be hall of famers

first ballot
chelios
sakic
jagr
lidstrom
hasek
brodeur
forsberg

not first ballot but almost surely hall of famers
shanahan
fedorov
belfour
niedermayer
selanne

debatable
recchi
modano
blake
sundin
pronger

highly debatable
roenick
brind'amour
tkachuk
zubov
naslund
kariya
alfredsson

this doesn't count recently retired players who deserve consideration like lindros, bondra, and mogilny.

who am i missing?

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12-19-2007, 09:00 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Don't think you're missing any, but I don't see what seperates Fedorov and Forsberg...

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Old
12-19-2007, 09:02 PM
  #3
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Don't think you're missing any, but I don't see what seperates Fedorov and Forsberg...
Agreed.

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Old
12-19-2007, 09:02 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
unquestionable
chelios
sakic
jagr
lidstrom
hasek
brodeur
forsberg

not first ballot be almost surely hall of famers
shanahan
fedorov
belfour
niedermayer
selanne

debatable
recchi
modano
blake
sundin
pronger

highly debatable
roenick
brind'amour
tkachuk
naslund
kariya
alfredsson

this doesn't count recently retired players who deserve consideration like lindros, bondra, and mogilny.

who am i missing?
Oh yeah debating Hall of Famers never gets old no matter what. Umm, everyone on the "for sure" list is correct. The 2nd list is pretty accurate too. After that, Recchi and Modano are debatable for sure but I think by now Sundin and Pronger are locks. A lot of people dont like Blake but it would be hard to see him out. Pronger is in for sure. Sundin, the more you talk about him the harder it will be to see him not make it.

The highly debatable is pretty acurate too. Kariya should make it eventually but not today, maybe in 5 years more of playing. Alfie, is questionable too. In 5 years we'll know for sure.

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Old
12-19-2007, 09:02 PM
  #5
Walkingthroughforest
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You seriously think mike modano is "debatable"?
Hell no, he's a first ballot

And I really doubt Naslund gets into the HHOF

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Old
12-19-2007, 09:29 PM
  #6
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I'd say Modano and Recchi should switch places, maybe even Modano and Federov. I don't see Recchi getting into the HHOF.

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Old
12-19-2007, 09:43 PM
  #7
Nalyd Psycho
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I'd say Modano and Recchi should switch places, maybe even Modano and Federov. I don't see Recchi getting into the HHOF.
Modano and Recchi are in the same place, how can they switch places?

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Old
12-19-2007, 09:53 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
first ballot
chelios
sakic
jagr
lidstrom
hasek
brodeur
forsberg

not first ballot but almost surely hall of famers
shanahan
fedorov
belfour
niedermayer
selanne

debatable
recchi
modano
blake
sundin
pronger

highly debatable
roenick
brind'amour
tkachuk
zubov
naslund
kariya
alfredsson

this doesn't count recently retired players who deserve consideration like lindros, bondra, and mogilny.

who am i missing?
Switch Pronger and Scott Niedermeyer and your list is pretty good.... though I didn't think too much about it... you might have missed someone. Alomost all of the debatable guys would make the HHOF if they retired.... but they would be debated more than the guys you had in the category above.

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Old
12-20-2007, 12:18 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Switch Pronger and Scott Niedermeyer and your list is pretty good

You really think Scott Niedermayer's HOF worthiness is debatable, while Pronger is surely in?

If anything, Scott should move up a group.

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Old
12-20-2007, 12:29 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STYG View Post
You really think Scott Niedermayer's HOF worthiness is debatable, while Pronger is surely in?

If anything, Scott should move up a group.
Pronger has had a better career than Niedermeyer. IMO. Pronger has been a truly elite player for several more years than Niedermeyer has. Niedermeyer has more Cups... But Pronger has had several great playoffs.. debatably he has been a better playoff performer than Niedermeyer.

I personally HATE Pronger... but he has had a better career than Niedermeyer has. Both are probably gonna make the HHOF if they retired today... but Pronger would be the earlier selection.

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Old
12-20-2007, 12:40 AM
  #11
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Well, now that I actually look at their stats and achievements, I think they're pretty even. You're right about the postseason though, Pronger is a gamer come playoff time, while Niedermayer has been good but not great most years. However, I think Scott playing at his full ability is slightly better than Pronger playing at his full ability. The only reason I'd put Niedermayer ahead of Pronger in HOF worthiness, however, is the Cups.

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Old
12-20-2007, 12:54 AM
  #12
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Modano debatable? Forsberg clearly above Fedorov? Or even in the first group? He's like an eyesore in there compared to the others... And Niedermayer and Selanne over Modano? Bah.

The rest of the list seems reasonable, well maybe except Alfredsson, who NEEDS to maintain good level of play for a few more seasons or win a Cup/major award to warrant consideration in my opinion.

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Old
12-20-2007, 12:57 AM
  #13
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Niedermeyer has played one more year than Pronger... and is also a year older.

Starting in 97/98 when either one first got Norris votes

97/98
Pronger 3rd in Norris 16th in Hart 3rd in All-Star voting
Niedermeyer 5th in Norris 4th in All star voitng

98/99
Pronger 4th in Norris 5th in All-Star
Niedermeyer 12th in all star

99/00
Pronger Wins Hart, Wins Norris, Unanimous 1st in All-Star voting
Niedermeyer 13th in All star voting

00/01
Pronger 11th in Norris voting 10th in All-star voting (missed 31 games)
Niedermeyer 16th in All-star voting (missed 25 games)

01/02
Pronger 5th in Norris voting, 5th in All-star voting
Niedermeyer 20th in All star voting

02/03
Pronger (only played 5 games)
Niedermeyer 13th in Norris voting, 12th in all-star voting

03/04
Pronger 3rd in Norris Voting, 16th in Hart voting, 3rd in All Star Voting
Niedermeyer Wins Norris, 9th in Hart voting, 1st in All-Star voting

05/06
Pronger 7th in Norris voting, 26th in Hart Voting, 5th in All-Star voting
Niedermeyer 2nd in Norris Voting, 8th in Hart Voting, 2nd in All-Star voting

06/07
Pronger 3rd in Norris, 22nd in Hart voting, 3rd in all-Star voting
Niedermeyer 2nd in Norris, 7th in Hart voting, 2nd in All-Star voting, Wins Conn Smythe

The trophy voting tells the Story. Pronger has been a Top Defenceman for ten years... while Niedermeyer has been one since only 03/04. Niedermeyer didn't even get a single vote for the Norris in 4 consecutive years right in his prime from 25-28 years old.

Both are great defenders... even in years they didn't get Norris votes, but Pronger is better and Pronger has been a huge winner in his career and a big playoff performer just like Niedermeyer.

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Old
12-20-2007, 01:00 AM
  #14
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I'd remove Naslund and replace him with Koivu. And I still don't think Koivu can make it in.


Lets ask ourselves a harder question and say a guy like Thornton or Lecavalier retires right now, in their prime to persuit another career (like Dryden). Do they make it in? Is it highly debateble? Who has the better chance between the two of them? Is there anyone else in the NHL under 30 years old who could get in tomorrow?

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Old
12-20-2007, 01:18 AM
  #15
Blades of Glory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
first ballot
chelios
sakic
jagr
lidstrom
hasek
brodeur
forsberg

not first ballot but almost surely hall of famers
shanahan
fedorov
belfour
niedermayer
selanne

debatable
recchi
modano
blake
sundin
pronger

highly debatable
roenick
brind'amour
tkachuk
zubov
naslund
kariya
alfredsson

this doesn't count recently retired players who deserve consideration like lindros, bondra, and mogilny.

who am i missing?
This is if they retired today:

Depending on who is in their class, and as long as there are not three other HOF-first balloters in their class, Fedorov, Shanahan, and Belfour are first-balloters.

First-ballot:
Chelios
Sakic
Jagr
Hasek
Brodeur
Fedorov
Niedermayer (you bet he's a first balloter, he's won everything there is to win)
Shanahan
Lidstrom
Forsberg

Will get in:
Modano
Selanne
Pronger (Two words: Hart Trophy)
Recchi (1300 points, key piece of Cup-winning teams)
Roenick (probably the second or third best American forward ever)

Borderline:
Zubov (Led a Cup champion in scoring)
Tkachuk (a lot of people forget how good this guy was in his prime)
Blake (I don't know about him, honestly. Has a Norris and was a key piece of a Cup team, but he's basically on or off (no consistency).
Brind'Amour (unlikely, but who knows)
Kariya (if he retired today, he would not get in)

No chance:
Alfredsson (Minimal playoff success, only one spectacular season (that too on a ridiculous line, he will get in if he plays 5-6 more seasons, but right now? No way.)
Naslund (He has less of a chance than Alfie)


Last edited by Blades of Glory: 12-20-2007 at 01:23 AM.
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Old
12-20-2007, 01:23 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Pronger has had a better career than Niedermeyer. IMO. Pronger has been a truly elite player for several more years than Niedermeyer has. Niedermeyer has more Cups... But Pronger has had several great playoffs.. debatably he has been a better playoff performer than Niedermeyer.

I personally HATE Pronger... but he has had a better career than Niedermeyer has. Both are probably gonna make the HHOF if they retired today... but Pronger would be the earlier selection.
But the HHOF voters love Canadian national heroes, and all Niedermayer has done in his hockey career from age 17 is win. Win, win, and win.

Niedermayer:
Four International Gold Medals
Four Stanley Cups

Pronger:
Three International Gold Medals
One Stanley Cup

And it didn't help that Pronger couldn't win the big one until he was traded onto whose team? Niedermayer.

While I agree that Pronger has had a better career, from start to finish, than Niedermayer, as far as individual play goes, there's not much chance that matters to HHOF voters.

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Old
12-20-2007, 01:40 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
But the HHOF voters love Canadian national heroes, and all Niedermayer has done in his hockey career from age 17 is win. Win, win, and win.

Niedermayer:
Four International Gold Medals
Four Stanley Cups

Pronger:
Three International Gold Medals
One Stanley Cup

And it didn't help that Pronger couldn't win the big one until he was traded onto whose team? Niedermayer.

While I agree that Pronger has had a better career, from start to finish, than Niedermayer, as far as individual play goes, there's not much chance that matters to HHOF voters.
I disagree. Pronger in 2005/06 was THE BEST PLAYER IN THE PLAYOFFS.... despite not winning the Cup. HHOF voters are knowledgable hockey experts... Sure Niedermeyer's Cups help him.. but Pronger has also won a Cup.. led an extremely average team to the 7th game of the finals.

Some players without a Cup or with only one Cup have not been great playoff players... Pronger is not among them. Pronger raised his game at the most important times.... through his whole career. Niedermeyer being slightly better in awards voting the last 4 or 5 seasons does not erase a HART trophy... and 5 years of far, far better play than Niedermeyer at the time.

Plus the HHOF likes gritty or even dirty players.... Pronger has shown he can win in the trenches as well as on the scoresheet. Pronger has more playoff points in 55 less games.

I in no way mean to diminish Niedermeyer.. I like him more than Pronger.. but Pronger simply has had a better career. It isn't even that close. If Niedermeyer had 4 Cups and Pronger had no great post season success.. it would be one thing but Pronger is a playoff monster.

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Old
12-20-2007, 09:03 AM
  #18
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Belfour, Shanahan and Fedorov are all locks.

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Old
12-20-2007, 09:08 AM
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Sundin is defintly a lock for the HOF

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Old
12-24-2007, 02:22 PM
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i found an interesting thread by Ogopogo fron 2005: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=140085

Read it!! It gives hard statistical answers to some of the questions especially about Forsberg. Has he done enough?? I'm obviously biased in the question

Cheers...

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Old
12-24-2007, 05:07 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Pronger raised his game at the most important times.... through his whole career.
While I agree that Pronger gets in before Niedemeyer, my recollection differs here. The Red Wings ate the Blues for lunch in the playoffs for much of Pronger's early career, and they had a way of making him self destruct as a series wore on. I'm not sure Pronger vs. the Wings of that time is exactly a fair challenge, but I do think it's fair to say that it took him quite some time to become a true playoff warrior. His early playoff career is just marred by too much time in the box and playoff disappointments.

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Old
12-24-2007, 05:17 PM
  #22
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Pronger has a Hart trophy, that has to be the deciding factor. The Stanley Cup advantage that Niedermayer has isn't only because of Niedermayer, its a team trophy. The Hart is pretty much the individual trophy counterpart to the Stanley cup.

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Old
12-24-2007, 10:12 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Pronger has had a better career than Niedermeyer. IMO. Pronger has been a truly elite player for several more years than Niedermeyer has. Niedermeyer has more Cups... But Pronger has had several great playoffs.. debatably he has been a better playoff performer than Niedermeyer.

I personally HATE Pronger... but he has had a better career than Niedermeyer has. Both are probably gonna make the HHOF if they retired today... but Pronger would be the earlier selection.
Agreed. It's ridiculous how high some people put Niedermayer on all-time lists. Pronger has been better, and definitely better for longer.

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Old
12-25-2007, 07:39 AM
  #24
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Agreed. I don't think Pronger is that great, but compared to Niedermayer? No contest.

Thing about D-men like Stevens or Pronger is that the opposing teams fear them. The Lidstroms and Bourques? They need to plan to play around them. But the Niedermayers? I don't think a d-man of Nieds' calibre elicits some special response from opposing team.

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Old
12-25-2007, 11:34 AM
  #25
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I'd be shocked if Sundin doesn't get in. I don't think there's really a lot to debate there. Some may think he doesn't deserve to get in, but I'd be stunned if doesn't actually get in.

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