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Who would be in the Hall of Fame if you got to choose?

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Old
12-27-2007, 10:40 PM
  #26
cupcrazyman
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many of the players before the 40's i don't have an opinion.

Please remove: Sid Abel ,Butch Bouchard ,Bernie Federko,Fetisov,Clarke Gilles,Syd Howe,Rod Langway,Cam Neely,Bert Olmstead,Bob Pulford,Bill Quackenbush.


Last edited by cupcrazyman: 12-28-2007 at 12:01 AM.
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Old
12-27-2007, 10:59 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Johnny O View Post
This does not address your Kurri post. I think he's 1 of the top 25 players of the last 40 years. Do you?
I don't think so. Very good and a certainl Hall of Famer, but not one of the best 25 players post expansion.

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Old
12-28-2007, 01:57 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
many of the players before the 40's i don't have an opinion.

Please remove: Sid Abel ,Butch Bouchard ,Bernie Federko,Fetisov,Clarke Gilles,Syd Howe,Rod Langway,Cam Neely,Bert Olmstead,Bob Pulford,Bill Quackenbush.
For a 6-7 year period Bouchard and Quackenbush were 2 of the 3 great defensemen in the league. That would be like inducting Neidermeyer but not Lidstrom and Pronger. Syd Howe held the record for most points in a career.

Those three belong.

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Old
12-28-2007, 02:46 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
many of the players before the 40's i don't have an opinion.

Please remove: Sid Abel ,Butch Bouchard ,Bernie Federko,Fetisov,Clarke Gilles,Syd Howe,Rod Langway,Cam Neely,Bert Olmstead,Bob Pulford,Bill Quackenbush.
You have got to be kidding. Slava Fetisov is one of the greatest hockey players ever, and one of the most important people in hockey history. A Hall of Fame without him would be a complete joke.

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Old
12-28-2007, 02:57 AM
  #30
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Tiger Williams
Guy Carbonneau
Eric Lindros
Adam Oates

What defines excellence and exceptional play and a career worthy of remembering and celebrating is TOO NARROWLY defined. Hockey is for the worse if these guys are forgotten.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:35 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Tiger Williams
Guy Carbonneau
Eric Lindros
Adam Oates

What defines excellence and exceptional play and a career worthy of remembering and celebrating is TOO NARROWLY defined. Hockey is for the worse if these guys are forgotten.
Tiger Williams??? You can't be serious.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:38 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Korean View Post
I wouldn't put Jarri Kurri, Howie Morenz, or Mike Modano in.
Then what is the point of a HHOF is you don't put in the "Babe Ruth of Hockey" or Kurri. Modano is indeed debatable. Kurri and Morenz are not unless your Hall only includes 40 or so players.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:43 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I cannot speak for morenz, but Kurri was just never considered among the best in the game.
Yeah he was.. for 8 or so years. He played in a high scoring era... so no "raw stats". Led the NHL in goals once, playoff goals FOUR times, First team All-Star twice, Second team 3 times.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:47 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
You have got to be kidding. Slava Fetisov is one of the greatest hockey players ever, and one of the most important people in hockey history. A Hall of Fame without him would be a complete joke.
Abel won a Hart Trophy, was a 2nd team All-star twice and 1st team twice. He led the NHL in goals and was a member of 3 Cup teams and one of the most famed lines ever... then he coached over a 24 year period. If Abel is not a HHOfer then there is not much point in even having a HHOF.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:48 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Tiger Williams
Guy Carbonneau
Adam Oates

What defines excellence and exceptional play and a career worthy of remembering and celebrating is TOO NARROWLY defined. Hockey is for the worse if these guys are forgotten.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Tiger Williams??? You can't be serious.
A fighter, yes. Tiger Williams, no. Make it Bob Probert (the unquestioned heavyweight champ in what was a golden age for fighters) or Zeus Schultz (as a symbol of Fred Shero hockey, which changed the game) and you've got my vote.

I think Guy Carbonneau will get in eventually, and, with 3 Cups, 3 Selkes and a warrior's reputation, rightfully so.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:50 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Micd Up View Post
And the Yzerman over Jagr example is what makes the list sad? Boy, I'm a huge Jagr fan and having watched both, I think Yzerman was better by a little bit, and I think that's a pretty common opinion of the hockey world.

I think the list was a solid effort. Of course, many people criticize it because it doesn't match what they want in their rankings, but I guess I'm realistic and expect opinions to differ from mine.
Having watched both careers for their entirety. Both are clear and obvious HHOFERS. Jagr, Yzerman... there is not point in having a HHOF if both are not included.

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Old
12-28-2007, 03:47 PM
  #37
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The poster who suggested Morenz should have the guts to come back and explain his statement, or have his posting privleges revoked. Most assinine comment in HF history.

Howie Morenz was hockey's first true superstar. He played his flair and skill never seen before. He was the first to transcend the game. He had a charisma that drew people to the sport. He's one of the top 20 players of all-time.

Kurri absolutely belongs in the HHOF. More than just Gretzky's lackey, he was the perfect linemate for Gretzky, with his hand-eye coordination, defensive ability and big-game mentality. Top 10 RW of all-time.

I'll throw out a few names who belong who haven't been inducted in the real HHOF: Rogie Vachon, Lorne Chabot, Mark Howe, JC Tremblay, Carl Brewer, Glenn Anderson, Igor Larionov (coming in 2008), Doug Gilmour, Adam Oates, Claude Provost, Ralph Backstrom, Guy Carbonneau.

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Old
12-28-2007, 04:11 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Korean View Post
I wouldn't put Jarri Kurri, Howie Morenz, or Mike Modano in.
Good Idea. We could call it the "Hall of Famous Hockey Players Not Including Howie Morenz".

Kind of has a ring to it.

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Old
12-28-2007, 11:09 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
For a 6-7 year period Bouchard and Quackenbush were 2 of the 3 great defensemen in the league. That would be like inducting Neidermeyer but not Lidstrom and Pronger. Syd Howe held the record for most points in a career.

Those three belong.
delete


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Old
12-29-2007, 12:27 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny O View Post
I'd like to see any poster have veto power so we only get the cream of the crop. In my personal book Jari Kurri and Howie Morenz are now permanently out of this thread.


Anyone who thinks Jari Kurri isn't a hall of famer doesn't deserve 'veto power' in any serious discussion. Regardless of what numbers he put up or awards he won, the fact that Jari Kurri was consistently on Gretzky's line during Gretzky's prime means Kurri is a hall of famer. The fact that the coaches never thought, "Wow, Kurri is really holding Gretzky back. I wonder who else could go on that line?" is all the proof you need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Good Idea. We could call it the "Hall of Famous Hockey Players Not Including Howie Morenz".

Kind of has a ring to it.

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Old
12-29-2007, 07:30 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Then what is the point of a HHOF is you don't put in the "Babe Ruth of Hockey" or Kurri. Modano is indeed debatable. Kurri and Morenz are not unless your Hall only includes 40 or so players.
I never saw why Morenz even belonged to the Hall in the first place. I'd take out even more players, but I wont list them all, because there is too many. I wouldn't induct Brett Hull in. Maybe Steve Yzerman. Definitely Chris Chelios though.

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Old
12-29-2007, 09:18 AM
  #42
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Honestly.... offensive guys I'm not sure they belong.

Bert Olmstead
(I really like the guy, but is he really a better player than Rick Martin? Leadership skills praised, but playing with Maurice Richard, Butch Bouchard and Jean Béliveau makes your leadership skills, well, somewhat useless. Career numbers might be impressive at the time he retired, but they're nothing more than footnotes now. Had only 2 LW AST (and they were both 2nd AST) nominations, and while he was against Ted Lindsay for a spot, he SHOULD have had more nominations considering he played the game for rather long. Also, his replacement player, Marcel Bonin, was able to do great things when he took his roster spot, and nobody will ever consider Bonin an induction-worthy player.)
Bernie Federko : what justifies Federko in and Bobby Smith out?... or the other way around -- don't think Smith is induction-worthy to begin with. Career totals are still impressive today, no post-season success to speak of (even if he was a good playoff performer, and played on not very skilled squads), and he got his career totals by playing against the absolute worst division in hockey history, one that featured dreadful defenses and/or goaltending. Playing the pre-Demers Wings, the post-Chra Leafs (that's pretty much a 10-year span at that point) and the post-'85 Stars was good for your offensive totals, even when you had Mark Hunter to complete your setups. The fact that Peter Stastny was able to get more points than Federko in the '80 in the Adams division is more revealing about Stastny's skills than Federko's one. I'd even to as far as to say that Bobby Smith's totals are more impressive than Federko for the same reason -- Smith totals took a drop when he moved to Montreal, but he played on a mainly defensive squad against better defenses/goaltending.


Last edited by MXD: 12-29-2007 at 10:23 AM.
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Old
12-29-2007, 09:20 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
many of the players before the 40's i don't have an opinion.

Please remove: Sid Abel ,Butch Bouchard ,Bernie Federko,Fetisov,Clarke Gilles,Syd Howe,Rod Langway,Cam Neely,Bert Olmstead,Bob Pulford,Bill Quackenbush.
Bill Quackenbush was arguably (and IMO) NHL's best D-Men for a five year stretch, and can be considered the best D-Men in the '40ies as well.

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Old
12-29-2007, 10:15 AM
  #44
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Old
12-29-2007, 10:25 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Wisent View Post
Boris Mikhailov
Bingo for the best (eligible) player not in the HHOF. I said a while ago that it was JC Tremblay, but that was a gross mistake.

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Old
12-29-2007, 12:56 PM
  #46
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Claude Provost?

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Old
12-29-2007, 08:39 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post

Bert Olmstead
(I really like the guy, but is he really a better player than Rick Martin? Leadership skills praised, but playing with Maurice Richard, Butch Bouchard and Jean Béliveau makes your leadership skills, well, somewhat useless. Career numbers might be impressive at the time he retired, but they're nothing more than footnotes now. Had only 2 LW AST (and they were both 2nd AST) nominations, and while he was against Ted Lindsay for a spot, he SHOULD have had more nominations considering he played the game for rather long. Also, his replacement player, Marcel Bonin, was able to do great things when he took his roster spot, and nobody will ever consider Bonin an induction-worthy player.)
On a related note, does anybody know about Olmstead's playoff reputation? He drops from 0.71 ppg in the RS to 0.51 ppg in the PO. There are a few years with massive drops in PO production.

In 1953, he dropped from 9th in scoring in the regular season to 4 pts in 12 games. In 1954, he fell from 5th in scoring (second in assists) to 1 point in 11 games! In 1955, he fell from 7th in scoring to 4 pts in 12 games.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that Olmstead has a lot of things in his favour. He had a fantastic playoff run in 1956, he played an excellent all-around game, and of course he won the Cup numerous times. Still, his drop in offense is a bit puzzling and I've never been able to find out why it happened.

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Old
12-29-2007, 08:56 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by The Korean View Post
I never saw why Morenz even belonged to the Hall in the first place. I'd take out even more players, but I wont list them all, because there is too many. I wouldn't induct Brett Hull in. Maybe Steve Yzerman. Definitely Chris Chelios though.
You wouldn't induct an 86 goal scorer that has a Hart and Pearson Trophy... and 103 playoff goals? I mean Brett scored 844 meaningful NHL goals.... played 20 NHL seasons and was a huge part of TWO Cup Champs leading the playoffs in goals twice. Unless you only want to induct Gretzky, Mario, Howe and Orr in the HHOF Brett is a no-brainer. Yzerman is a "MAYBE"?!?!?!?!!?. Yzerman has been overrated at times... but a "maybe"? He was a dominant scorer for like 7 seasons... then he becomes near the ultimate leader and a top defensive forward on THREE Cup teams. One legged Cup winning 23 year career... 1755 point scoring 196 playoff game playing 155 point scoring two time 60 goal scorers are not a "maybe". They are a LOCK. A mortal undeniable first ballot LOCK.

Is Yzerman a top 20 player ever or top 40 or 50? Really it doesn't matter.... he is a Hall of Famer by any measure in any time in any sport.... There can be NO DEBATE about MAYBE.....

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Old
12-29-2007, 11:51 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
On a related note, does anybody know about Olmstead's playoff reputation? He drops from 0.71 ppg in the RS to 0.51 ppg in the PO. There are a few years with massive drops in PO production.

In 1953, he dropped from 9th in scoring in the regular season to 4 pts in 12 games. In 1954, he fell from 5th in scoring (second in assists) to 1 point in 11 games! In 1955, he fell from 7th in scoring to 4 pts in 12 games.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that Olmstead has a lot of things in his favour. He had a fantastic playoff run in 1956, he played an excellent all-around game, and of course he won the Cup numerous times. Still, his drop in offense is a bit puzzling and I've never been able to find out why it happened.
A lot of guys saw their production drop significantly in the post-season in the O6 era. Teams didn't get to beat up on Marc Denis or Johan Holmqvist in the playoffs back then. When you're playing two best-of-sevens against HHOF goalies, and against teams loaded with HHOFers, it doesn't take a genius to realize that goals will be few and far between.

Olmstead's also one of those guys who can be the best player on the ice without getting a point.

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Old
12-30-2007, 09:40 AM
  #50
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A lot of guys saw their production drop significantly in the post-season in the O6 era. Teams didn't get to beat up on Marc Denis or Johan Holmqvist in the playoffs back then. When you're playing two best-of-sevens against HHOF goalies, and against teams loaded with HHOFers, it doesn't take a genius to realize that goals will be few and far between.

Olmstead's also one of those guys who can be the best player on the ice without getting a point.
Hence why the mention "Offensively, I think those guys doesn't belong".

I think the main knack about Olmstead was that Bonin was able to step, do roughly the same job... and earn a Retroactive C.S. in place of Olmstead. I understand that Bonin had an injury-shortened career, and could have been a HHOF, should his career would have been longer (hypothesis...), but still, we can argue that, for a short time, the replacement player was better than the original player.

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