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Top 10 Spoiled Talents

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Old
12-27-2007, 07:52 PM
  #51
Heat McManus
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Yes, he was considered a potential superstar - that is why he was drafted before Joe Sakic by the Nords. His OHL record of 47 goals by a defenceman is phenomenal.

"He had everything. He could skate like the wind. He could see anybody on the ice. He could make the perfect pass. He was as talented as anybody I've seen in junior hockey. He broke all of Bobby Orr's records. Everybody was telling me you can't go wrong with him."
-Maurice Filion, former Quebec GM, who drafted Bryan Fogarty with the Nordiques' first pick in 1987, six picks ahead of Quebec's second selection, Joe Sakic

"Bryan Fogarty could skate faster, shoot harder and pass crisper drunk than the rest of us could sober." - Mats Sundin

"Fogie and I lived in the same apartment complex as Sakic. One night we came back late and had to help him to bed. We were worried about him making practice the next day. The next morning, we went knocking on his door. He was already at the rink, whistling and having coffee. Then he's skating circles around people. I thought, "If I drank like he did last night, I wouldn't be able to drag myself out of bed in the morning." But it wasn't affecting him. That's when we all became more concerned." -Ron Tugnutt, Fogarty's teammate in Quebec

Fogarty gets my vote for a lost career and what might have been.
Absolutely. ESPN had an article on him about five years back. It's worth a read:

http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol5no20fogarty.html

I'll add Pavel Bure to that list. How much more he could have produced with good knees.

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Old
12-27-2007, 07:57 PM
  #52
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Paul Kariya.

What could have been had Suter not crosschecked him in the face...

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Old
12-27-2007, 08:09 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Korean View Post
Bryan Berard. I believe that he would have been better than what he is today. Not saying that he is terrible now but...
+1, amazing how well he has done with what would be a career ending injury for lesser players.

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Old
12-27-2007, 08:57 PM
  #54
pappyline
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I don't think anybody cares. Everyone knows Hull was one of the 2 or 3 best left-wingers of all time, regardless of where he played.

Injuries are one thing (they happen), but self-inflicted stupidity to me constitutes "wasted talent" because they could have done so much more.

Two guys stand out who haven't been mentioned: Brian Lawton and Howie Young

Lawton was supposed to be a superstar but just never was; the fact that Yzerman, Lafontaine, Barrasso, Neely and Claude Lemieux were drafted behind him just rubs salt in the wound. He never put up more than 44 pts in a season and spent way too much time in the Vowel-HL.

Howie Young was a talented, mean, slightly-crazy defenseman back in the 60's for the Red Wings. He could have been Scott Stevens -- the fact that you've never heard of him tells you just how much he liked to drink. What a waste.
About Hull, I believe if he had stayed in the NHL, He would have had several more productive NHL seasons (plus might have won another cup) & be included up there with Howe, Lemieux & Gretzy (should be anyway).

Howie Young, I do remember. Great ability but a wild man with a drinking problem. I specifically remember him taking runs at Johnny Bower one year in the playoffs.

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Old
12-27-2007, 09:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
A lot of guys careers have gone down the tube when they were traded to the New York Islanders for some reason.

Trevor Linden completely lost his offensive game, as did Kirk Muller. Wendel Clark lost his ability to play a physical game there. Felix Potvin lost his ability to stop pucks. Yashin lost his ability to produce and score a ton of goals. Seems like the Island was the NHL's graveyard for a lot of guys.
most of these guys lost their abilities before they got to the Island
Linden had a bad year and a half before he got traded to Isles
Potvin was AWFUL in the beginning of the 98-99 season he actually got better with Isles
Wendel Clark's game had begun to change the year he spent in Quebec and he was on 35 goal pace for Isles that year
Kirk Muller 19 pts in 33 gms for MTL in 94- 95 and 15 pts in 27 games for Isles
Yashin never had decent line mates around him which affected him early. His game was really hurt by new NHL because he is really slow.
these are analytical only and do not represent the views of the writer (who hates Muller and thinks Yashin has no heart)

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Old
12-27-2007, 09:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Gord Kluzak hasn't been mentioned, but should be.
gary nylund and bill barillko(sp?) deserve mention as well .

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Old
12-27-2007, 09:57 PM
  #57
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
About Hull, I believe if he had stayed in the NHL, He would have had several more productive NHL seasons (plus might have won another cup) & be included up there with Howe, Lemieux & Gretzy (should be anyway).

Howie Young, I do remember. Great ability but a wild man with a drinking problem. I specifically remember him taking runs at Johnny Bower one year in the playoffs.
Hull is never quite going to be mentioned with the "big 4" simply because his lack of Cups hurt him. Just one for a player of his calibre is the main reason he gets put closer to the Top 10 of all time rather than top 5

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Old
12-27-2007, 10:06 PM
  #58
pappyline
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Hull is never quite going to be mentioned with the "big 4" simply because his lack of Cups hurt him. Just one for a player of his calibre is the main reason he gets put closer to the Top 10 of all time rather than top 5
Teams win cups. Orr & Lemieux only were on 2 cup winners. Some great players never won any. You are probably right though. Montreal players tend to get over-rated because of winning a lot of cups. I don't agree with it. Its how you perform in the playoffs that should matter. Not whether you win or lose.

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12-27-2007, 10:32 PM
  #59
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Teams win cups. Orr & Lemieux only were on 2 cup winners. Some great players never won any. You are probably right though. Montreal players tend to get over-rated because of winning a lot of cups. I don't agree with it. Its how you perform in the playoffs that should matter. Not whether you win or lose.
Yeah but there were many opportunities Hull had. Of course it isnt all his fault just like Mikita, Hall and Pilote arent solely to blame. But in '65 they lose a 7th game in the Cup finals, in '67 they lose to a Leaf team that they had no business losing to and in '71 they blow a lead in the 7th game of the Cup finals. Hull isnt to blame for all of this but winning is something he didnt do regularily. By winning I mean Cups. Beliveau had 10, Hull had 1. Both had similar regular seasons but I'll take Beliveau on my team 100% of the time. When you win at the most important time of year that counts.

It's not all bad though Hull was still a good playoff performer and won one Cup to boot. It's just that when you compare the top 10-15 players of all time he's pretty much all alone with that one Cup. Others won multiple championships and I think that's what hurts him. But it should as well to a certain extent

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Old
12-28-2007, 02:00 AM
  #60
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It should hurt him, but not much, his regular season play is without a doubt 4th among forwards and 5th or 6th among players. (Shore being the questionable one.) So to drop him out of the top ten is exceedingly harsh, he simply never had the supporting cast.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:27 AM
  #61
pappyline
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah but there were many opportunities Hull had. Of course it isnt all his fault just like Mikita, Hall and Pilote arent solely to blame. But in '65 they lose a 7th game in the Cup finals, in '67 they lose to a Leaf team that they had no business losing to and in '71 they blow a lead in the 7th game of the Cup finals. Hull isnt to blame for all of this but winning is something he didnt do regularily. By winning I mean Cups. Beliveau had 10, Hull had 1. Both had similar regular seasons but I'll take Beliveau on my team 100% of the time. When you win at the most important time of year that counts.

It's not all bad though Hull was still a good playoff performer and won one Cup to boot. It's just that when you compare the top 10-15 players of all time he's pretty much all alone with that one Cup. Others won multiple championships and I think that's what hurts him. But it should as well to a certain extent
I don't want to get into a big debate but the cup is won by Teams and IMO should not be a huge factor in ranking players. Have Beliveau & Hull switch teams and maybe Hull has 10 cups & Beliveau only 1 And Hull has better regular seasons to boot. Lemieux & Orr didn't win cups regularly either but nobody thinks less of them for it (nor should they). Hell some of those Montreal teams had players that were 3rd liners or utility players (Marshall & Goyette, for example) who became stars on other teams. You put far to much emphasis on number of cups. I guess you would take Bob Turner over Bill gadsby because he won 4 cups to Gadsby's zero. That seems to be the logic you are using.

Hell, by your logic all the top ATD players were Habs

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:36 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Teams win cups. Orr & Lemieux only were on 2 cup winners. Some great players never won any. You are probably right though. Montreal players tend to get over-rated because of winning a lot of cups. I don't agree with it. Its how you perform in the playoffs that should matter. Not whether you win or lose.
I agree to a point.... but regardless Beliveau and Richard are right there with Hull. Harvey was great, Plante, Lafleur, Dryden, Robinson were great. To me it is the sencond tier stars that get overrated by being on Montreal or the other dynasties.

To me... and you likely agree! as a Hawks fan at the time. Mikita gets underated. For what 4 years in a row he was pretty much better than Hull, Howe, Beliveau who all were at or near their best.... Mikita doesn't get the credit he deserves... maybe because he only had one Cup? He was amazing in a long stretch... and yet few awknowledge him as the best player of that period.

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Old
12-28-2007, 06:37 AM
  #63
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Don't forget Valeri Kamenski. He played an awesome game but he broke his foot twice and injuries hampered him.

Cheers..

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Old
12-29-2007, 05:32 PM
  #64
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Donny Murdoch
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Old
12-29-2007, 08:13 PM
  #65
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Wayne Presley

He was starting to breakout for Hawks. His 86-87 season was great but then Injuries derailed his career and his speed dropped! After that he was nothing more then a 3rd liner!

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Old
12-29-2007, 08:32 PM
  #66
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The first page seems to have gotten the big one's. Here is a smaller one. A guy who most definitely would be challenging for a few norris trophies. Vladmir Konstantinov

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Old
12-30-2007, 02:55 AM
  #67
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by flyin_finn View Post
Eric's brother - Brett Lindros - never got a proper shot for the NHL. We'll never know if he actually had the talent, but definitely the 1st round draft pick indicated so.
brett lindros might have gotten more of a shot than he ever deserved. he had great size and some talent, obviously, but i've heard that a lot of his great numbers in junior b and the ohl were due to his father's meddling. granted, this was from a guy on lindros' st. mike's junior b team who didn't get the plum ice time on jason allison's line, so there might be some bitterness clouding that account. but i've heard that there were plenty of more talented players than lindros every step of the way, who didn't get the chances he got because they weren't eric's brother and carl and bonnie's son.

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While Konstantinov is certainly a wasted talent... I don't think he would have ever sniffed the Norris.
oh i beg to differ. he was runner up for the norris in '97 and no less than steve yzerman has said that he probably deserved the conn smythe that year. at the same age, he was better than nik lidstrom. scott bowman and igor larionov both said this. jimmy develanno once said he wouldn't trade konstantinov for any defenceman in the league. there is a lot to suggest that konstantinov could very well have won at least one norris.

another name to add to the discussion would be slava kozlov. scouts were saying that, before his accident, he looked like he would be the best russian player of his generation, that he was better than fedorov, bure, and mogilny were when they were his age. i don't know that he would have outperformed those three in the nhl because they were all so much stronger than kozlov, but his talent was reportedly off the charts before the crash. when he was drafted in the third round by detroit, he was the highest drafted russian ever.


Last edited by vadim sharifijanov: 12-30-2007 at 03:08 AM. Reason: oops, typed "calder" instead of "norris" for some reason.
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Old
12-30-2007, 03:03 AM
  #68
Blades of Glory
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To the guy who said Konstantinov probably wouldn't have sniffed the Norris, he was second in 1996-97 Norris Voting. Second!

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