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Can we now mention Sundin among the giants who have never won a Cup

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Old
01-24-2008, 02:04 AM
  #26
octopi
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
He's played 13 years in Toronto and all he's lost is his hair, I'd say that's pretty remarkable.
I'm guessing he tore it out. Poor Mats.


Oh, and the answer to the title qustion is yes.

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01-24-2008, 04:48 PM
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HOF lock, anybody who's watched him play through his years with the Laffs knows he's been CONSISTENTLY GREAT. I'm a Habs fan and I have nothing but respect for him.

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01-26-2008, 04:10 PM
  #28
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Sundin is better than Norm Ullman for sure, and especially in a Maple Leafs jersey. But I would not put him in the same tier as LaFontaine, Hawerchuk, or Dionne. Or Park. Or the goalies listed (although I have always thought Giacomin was overrated a bit). But, yes, he can be listed as one of the greats to not win a Cup.

The face of the Leafs for over a decade straight.

And he will make the HHOF, and it should be on his first year of eligibility.

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01-26-2008, 04:56 PM
  #29
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why is there no mention of Cam Neely among the greats who've never won a cup? 50 goals in 44 games, while dealing with the bad knee. and he's already in the HOF. much like Lemieux i would have loved to have seen the numbers he could have put up if he had been healthy his entire career

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01-26-2008, 05:14 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikFromSweden View Post
-- Ranked 25th all time in career goals (541) - Tied with Stan Mikita
Speaking of great players who never won the Cup...


This subject seems to arise a lot in this forum - mentioning that a certain great player didn't win a Cup. So what if Sundin doesn't? It adds to the resume for great players, but it shouldn't count against them for playing entire careers with teams that didn't reach the pinnacle. Think of the mediocre/poor players who were fortunate enough to get their names etched.


His reputation/legacy are already solidified. From Wiki:

Awards

Quote:
Swedish Champion in 1990.
First European born player to be drafted first overall in the NHL entry draft. (1989)
Named to the Elitserien World All-Star Team in 1991, 1992, 1994 and 1998.
Named to the World Championships All-Star Team in 1992 and 2003.
World Championships' Best Forward in 1992.
Named to the Canada Cup All-Star Team in 1991.
Named to the World Cup of Hockey All-Star Team in 1996.
Played in the NHL All-Star Game in 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 (injured) and 2004.
Named to the NHL Second All-Star Team in 2002 and 2004.
Named to the Olympic Tournament All-Star Team in 2002.
Achieved 500 goal plateau on October 14th, 2006.
Achieved 1,200 points on December 26th, 2006.
Records

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Currently holds the NHL record for most overtime goals (15, shared with Jaromir Jagr)
Ranked 24th all time in career goals (544) - Tied with Maurice Richard
Ranked 37th all time in career assists (746)
Ranked 30th all time in career points (1287)
First European hockey player to be drafted first overall in the NHL Entry Draft (1989 by the Quebec Nordiques)
Longest serving European captain of an NHL franchise in league history
First Swedish player to reach the 500 goal milestone
Most career points, goals and assists by a Swedish hockey player
Fastest overtime goal (6 seconds, tied with Alexander Ovechkin and David Legwand)
Only Swedish player to reach 1000 points

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01-26-2008, 05:50 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob View Post
Speaking of great players who never won the Cup...


This subject seems to arise a lot in this forum - mentioning that a certain great player didn't win a Cup. So what if Sundin doesn't? It adds to the resume for great players, but it shouldn't count against them for playing entire careers with teams that didn't reach the pinnacle. Think of the mediocre/poor players who were fortunate enough to get their names etched.


His reputation/legacy are already solidified. From Wiki:

Awards



Records
Most of those items are superficial. Aside from two or three of those items listed the rest do not make a case for Sundin to be considered a great. Sundin is a good not a great. Sorry but facts are facts.

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01-26-2008, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Most of those items are superficial. Aside from two or three of those items listed the rest do not make a case for Sundin to be considered a great. Sundin is a good not a great. Sorry but facts are facts.
Is Shanahan good or great?

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01-26-2008, 05:58 PM
  #33
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Is Shanahan good or great?
Shanahan is good

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01-26-2008, 06:04 PM
  #34
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mat ssundin never did have linemates that were in the prime careers

thats got to have an effect on how he is percieved

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01-26-2008, 06:10 PM
  #35
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mat ssundin never did have linemates that were in the prime careers

thats got to have an effect on how he is percieved
Great players dominate no matter who is on their line. Gretzky, Lemieux, Dionne, Bathgate, Ovechkin....

Linemates is no excuse.

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01-26-2008, 06:33 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Great players dominate no matter who is on their line. Gretzky, Lemieux, Dionne, Bathgate, Ovechkin....

Linemates is no excuse.
Marcel Dionne had Simmer & Taylor in LA. Gretzky had Kurri to feed in Edm & LA, then Brett Hull in St. Louis. Can't remember what the line combinations were in Pittsburgh - did Lemieux have Jagr and Stevens or were they wit Ronnie Francis?

A case could be made for having decent linemates, but, yes, it's true that the elite pivots make their wingers play better.

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01-26-2008, 06:51 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Badger Bob View Post
Marcel Dionne had Simmer & Taylor in LA. Gretzky had Kurri to feed in Edm & LA, then Brett Hull in St. Louis. Can't remember what the line combinations were in Pittsburgh - did Lemieux have Jagr and Stevens or were they wit Ronnie Francis?

A case could be made for having decent linemates, but, yes, it's true that the elite pivots make their wingers play better.
Some seasons those players had good linemates and some years they had crappy ones. The point is, they always dominated they were always at or near the scoring lead with or without. Heck, Gretzky broke the single season points record with 164 on a team where the #2 scorer had 75 points.

Linemates is no excuse.

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01-26-2008, 06:54 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Badger Bob View Post
Marcel Dionne had Simmer & Taylor in LA. Gretzky had Kurri to feed in Edm & LA, then Brett Hull in St. Louis. Can't remember what the line combinations were in Pittsburgh - did Lemieux have Jagr and Stevens or were they wit Ronnie Francis?

A case could be made for having decent linemates, but, yes, it's true that the elite pivots make their wingers play better.
Players who produced well on Dionne's line, only produced well on Dionne's line.

Gretzky had Kurri, but he also won a scoring title with Blair MacDonald as his RW.

Lemieux had Stevens and Jagr at times, he also had Rob Brown at other times.

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01-26-2008, 07:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Great players dominate no matter who is on their line. Gretzky, Lemieux, Dionne, Bathgate, Ovechkin....

Linemates is no excuse.
Therein lies the problem though. Sundin is not as good as any of those guys (going on the assumption that Ovechkin is like this in his career).

That is the misconception of Sundin. He IS a hall of Famer, to me there's no bones about it. That being said he isnt Gretzky or Lemieux. He wouldnt have scored 50 goals with a fire hydrant. He was never as good as Dionne either. Bathgate won a Hart Trophy and is one of the best RW of all time. Sundin is a legit Hall of Famer but is not these guys. If Dionne was a Leaf and had Sundin's hand dealt to him than maybe you can criticize him for not winning a Cup. But Sundin is just a normal Hall of Famer that isnt expected to have carried the WHOLE team on his back.

If you want a good comparison for him go no further than Sittler. Both had great careers. Both were at times top 10 players in the game. Both had decent but could have been better linemates. Neither won a Cup. Neither should ever be blamed for not winning a Cup. Because neither were expected or good enough to lead a team that far SOLELY. Sundin is like Sittler. He's at the level of a guy like Modano. Hall of Famer yes, but to compare him to those above names is assinine.

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01-26-2008, 08:05 PM
  #40
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Therein lies the problem though. Sundin is not as good as any of those guys (going on the assumption that Ovechkin is like this in his career).

That is the misconception of Sundin. He IS a hall of Famer, to me there's no bones about it. That being said he isnt Gretzky or Lemieux. He wouldnt have scored 50 goals with a fire hydrant. He was never as good as Dionne either. Bathgate won a Hart Trophy and is one of the best RW of all time. Sundin is a legit Hall of Famer but is not these guys. If Dionne was a Leaf and had Sundin's hand dealt to him than maybe you can criticize him for not winning a Cup. But Sundin is just a normal Hall of Famer that isnt expected to have carried the WHOLE team on his back.

If you want a good comparison for him go no further than Sittler. Both had great careers. Both were at times top 10 players in the game. Both had decent but could have been better linemates. Neither won a Cup. Neither should ever be blamed for not winning a Cup. Because neither were expected or good enough to lead a team that far SOLELY. Sundin is like Sittler. He's at the level of a guy like Modano. Hall of Famer yes, but to compare him to those above names is assinine.
I wouldn't put Sittler, Modano or Sundin in the HOF. Comparing him to legit HOFers like Gretzky, Dionne and Bathgate is valid -Sundin is like Federko and Gillies, not worthy but he will be put in by the pro-Toronto comitte.

That is why the HOF has no credibility. The comittee puts their buddies and favorites in. The HOF is a novelty but in no way shape or form should be confused with a list of the games all time greatest players.

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01-26-2008, 08:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Therein lies the problem though. Sundin is not as good as any of those guys (going on the assumption that Ovechkin is like this in his career).

That is the misconception of Sundin. He IS a hall of Famer, to me there's no bones about it. That being said he isnt Gretzky or Lemieux. He wouldnt have scored 50 goals with a fire hydrant. He was never as good as Dionne either. Bathgate won a Hart Trophy and is one of the best RW of all time. Sundin is a legit Hall of Famer but is not these guys. If Dionne was a Leaf and had Sundin's hand dealt to him than maybe you can criticize him for not winning a Cup. But Sundin is just a normal Hall of Famer that isnt expected to have carried the WHOLE team on his back.

If you want a good comparison for him go no further than Sittler. Both had great careers. Both were at times top 10 players in the game. Both had decent but could have been better linemates. Neither won a Cup. Neither should ever be blamed for not winning a Cup. Because neither were expected or good enough to lead a team that far SOLELY. Sundin is like Sittler. He's at the level of a guy like Modano. Hall of Famer yes, but to compare him to those above names is assinine.
Good post. I am also a Leaf fan, and I agree.

Sundin's a no-contest HOF'er, but he's not an all-time great. He is at the level of guys like Modano and Sittler, IMO.

And there's nothing, at all, wrong with that.

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01-26-2008, 10:01 PM
  #42
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Players who produced well on Dionne's line, only produced well on Dionne's line.
Charlie Simmer potted 30+ twice for the Bruins, both in < full seasons.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=4958

Dave Taylor was still good for 20+ a couple of times with the Kings, while Dionne after had returned from retirement to play with the NYR.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=5318

Dionne was one of the all-time greats, but Simmer and Taylor were fine players.

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I wouldn't put Sittler, Modano or Sundin in the HOF.
Do you vote?

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Comparing him to legit HOFers like Gretzky, Dionne and Bathgate is valid -Sundin is like Federko and Gillies, not worthy but he will be put in by the pro-Toronto comitte.
By what standard does 544/1282 (and counting) not make him Hall-worthy, thus comparable to Federko & Gillies? (For the record, Federko did crack the top-50 - and there's no doubt that his selection was questioned by many.) Don't turn around and claim that Sundin should be evaluated like Ciccarelli and Verbeek.

Yes, there is definitely an atmosphere of "Toronto as the center of the hockey universe" but Mats Sundin will eventually be inducted with little controversy. Ditto for Modano. You may not like it, but that's the way it's going to be.

Whomever else is still following this thread, can review the career leaders lists in goals, assists and points and see the names above Sundin and decide the strength of his credentials.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stical_leaders

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01-26-2008, 10:11 PM
  #43
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Most of those items are superficial. Aside from two or three of those items listed the rest do not make a case for Sundin to be considered a great. Sundin is a good not a great. Sorry but facts are facts.
Sorry, which of those records/achievements are superficial besides fastest overtime goal? Amuse me please.

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01-26-2008, 10:29 PM
  #44
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Therein lies the problem though. Sundin is not as good as any of those guys (going on the assumption that Ovechkin is like this in his career).

That is the misconception of Sundin. He IS a hall of Famer, to me there's no bones about it. That being said he isnt Gretzky or Lemieux. He wouldnt have scored 50 goals with a fire hydrant. He was never as good as Dionne either. Bathgate won a Hart Trophy and is one of the best RW of all time. Sundin is a legit Hall of Famer but is not these guys. If Dionne was a Leaf and had Sundin's hand dealt to him than maybe you can criticize him for not winning a Cup. But Sundin is just a normal Hall of Famer that isnt expected to have carried the WHOLE team on his back.

If you want a good comparison for him go no further than Sittler. Both had great careers. Both were at times top 10 players in the game. Both had decent but could have been better linemates. Neither won a Cup. Neither should ever be blamed for not winning a Cup. Because neither were expected or good enough to lead a team that far SOLELY. Sundin is like Sittler. He's at the level of a guy like Modano. Hall of Famer yes, but to compare him to those above names is assinine.

You make good points, and I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I remember a little while back you made thread about the selection standards of goalies vs. the rest for the HOF.

Maybe I misinterpreted but you listed a bunch of goalies and said you didn't think most of them belonged in the HOF. So what does Sundin and comparable players like Modano have that make them surefire HOFers that the goalies you listed (Richter, Joseph, Vachon) don't?

The only thing I can think of is, like you said, there are no controversial goalie selections while there are for the rest that lowers the bar.

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01-26-2008, 11:10 PM
  #45
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Sorry, which of those records/achievements are superficial besides fastest overtime goal? Amuse me please.
Don't argue. "Facts are facts."

Sundin isn't as good as the players mentioned, no. But someone has to be the worst of the bunch, why not Sundin? He's certainly a large piece for a Stanley Cup winning team. He does have the ability to put a team on his back, thought maybe not for extended stretches. He'd need some help to get a team all the way, but if he doesn't (there's still time) win a Cup, it'll certainly be a surprise to someone thinking back 30 years from now.

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01-26-2008, 11:18 PM
  #46
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I wouldn't put Sittler, Modano or Sundin in the HOF. Comparing him to legit HOFers like Gretzky, Dionne and Bathgate is valid -Sundin is like Federko and Gillies, not worthy but he will be put in by the pro-Toronto comitte.

That is why the HOF has no credibility. The comittee puts their buddies and favorites in. The HOF is a novelty but in no way shape or form should be confused with a list of the games all time greatest players.
Should Naslund be in the HOF when all is said and done?

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01-26-2008, 11:26 PM
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When all is said and done him being top 30 all time in goals, assists and points with all of his credentials do not get into the HHOF something is terribly wrong.

Plus who is to say he does not win a cup this year or next? Also if he were to play again this year with another consistent 80 point season he could get himself into the top 20 point getters of all time.

To say he will only get in because of a Pro-Toronto Committee is a joke, nobody could ever be serious to say gaging HHOFs as All time greatest players is again a joke.

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01-27-2008, 12:47 AM
  #48
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You make good points, and I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I remember a little while back you made thread about the selection standards of goalies vs. the rest for the HOF.

Maybe I misinterpreted but you listed a bunch of goalies and said you didn't think most of them belonged in the HOF. So what does Sundin and comparable players like Modano have that make them surefire HOFers that the goalies you listed (Richter, Joseph, Vachon) don't?

The only thing I can think of is, like you said, there are no controversial goalie selections while there are for the rest that lowers the bar.
Yes I remember that thread. Although Vachon was a guy that I thought should be in there. I've always supported him as a guy that should get in, so maybe you misread that but yeah I dont agree with Joseph or Richter being in there.

Now what does Sundin have that they dont? Good question, because to be honest not a LOT separates Sundin from Richter and Joseph who barely miss out IMO. Sundin wont be the best Hall of Famer inducted but he wont be the worse either so lets consider him to be somewhere near maybe the bottom 25%.

Unlike Richter Sundin has consistency. In the last 12-13 years he has never had a questionable season, considering he often plays with questionable talent. Richter was streaky. He won a Cup but he also missed the playoffs the last 6 years of his career and had losing seasons in more years than not. Joseph failed to ever win the big one and had very little success outside of the 1st round. While the same may be said for Sundin the truth is as a goalie if you dont have Cups or all-star selections you arent getting in. Because a goalie is coupled with a quarterback in football the most important position in sports. They ARE the last line of defense. Sundin never cost the Leafs a playoff series. He wasnt awesome any particular year but just merely average. Goalies CAN cost a team playoff series and Joseph quite often did that. Plus Sundin has 2 all-star selections at Centre, while Joseph has none at the goalie position.

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01-27-2008, 05:23 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Badger Bob View Post
Charlie Simmer potted 30+ twice for the Bruins, both in < full seasons.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=4958

Dave Taylor was still good for 20+ a couple of times with the Kings, while Dionne after had returned from retirement to play with the NYR.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=5318
Exactly, they weren't anything special. Given the era, that makes them really good 2nd liners, sub par 1st liners. Does that make them better than Alex Mogilny or Steve Thomas? No.

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When all is said and done him being top 30 all time in goals, assists and points with all of his credentials do not get into the HHOF something is terribly wrong.
What credentials? That's the problem, aside from nice career numbers, his relative performance to peers is simply not HHoF worthy. He has two top ten scoring finishes, for a scoring forward that makes him VERY far from the HHoF.

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01-27-2008, 08:46 AM
  #50
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Exactly, they weren't anything special. Given the era, that makes them really good 2nd liners, sub par 1st liners.
It was toward the end of their careers, playing for less than stellar teams most of their time in the league. When they were in LA, the team was basically Simmer-Dionne-Taylor with Rogie Vachon in net. That's all they had. Pat Quinn might've been their best d-men. First you stated that they only produced when they had Dionne, then it's down to just 'nothing special.' They had very respectable careers. If you want to continue on believing that they sucked, that's fine.

Next time Marcel Dionne is interviewed, somebody should make the point of telling him that a "Global Moderator" on a message board doesn't believe that Dave Taylor and Charlie Simmer were good enough to skate on the same line with him. Wonder what he'd say?

Quote:
Does that make them better than Alex Mogilny or Steve Thomas? No.
Don't recall anybody making that assertion.


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