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Was Keon's #1 Leaf status a suck up?

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12-31-2007, 03:48 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Was Keon's #1 Leaf status a suck up?

Let's be honest. I like Keon and have no beef with him whatsoever but with his indifferent relationship with the Leafs was his status as the #1 Leaf of all time (in a recent well respected vote) a little way of sucking up to him?

Personally I dont think its a good thing when Keon is the best player that has played for the Leafs. The Habs have Beliveau/Lafleur/Harvey/Richard, Boston has Orr/Espo, Chicago has Hull/Mikita, Detroit has Howe/Lindsay. Only the Rangers might have worse all time greats among the Original 6 but even then I'll take Bathgate over Keon 10 days a week.

Alright so Keon never had a bad game. I'll admit he was extremely solid. But Mike Richards never has a bad game either. Rod BrindAmour doenst either. Gainey rarely did. Being extremely solid is a great asset. He was a winner and a leader and his two way game is rivaled by few but he was never a DOMINANT player, just a very, very good one for many years. Never was he a top 5 player in the game, not once. And I doubt someone can find a season where he was. Is this what we should call the best Leaf of all time?

To me he's benefitted from the Leaf fans that have cried over his dismissal of the team. Stuff like this might help him feel more respect from the Leafs. Kind of like Patrick Roy being considered the best Hab of all time. If that happened wouldnt you think to yourself "oh yeah they're just trying to get back on good terms with him again." I know I did with Keon. Again nothing against him as a player but he's not #1.

Syl Apps, Turk Broda, Charlie Conacher, Ted Kennedy can all make a good case for being much better. At least one of these guys had a high peak and within the NHL were considered to be among the best in the game if not the best. Anyone else feel what I'm feeling?

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12-31-2007, 04:38 PM
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No I don't feel what you're feeling at all. I'm not a Leaf fan, never have been so I have no need to suck up to Keon and he is without a doubt the best player I've seen in a Leaf uniform. You're like all the rest who continually underrate how valuable Keon was to a team. You see, Keon is the perfect example of why you can't rate a player by stats and awards. You had to see him play to understand all of the things he did so well.

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12-31-2007, 05:42 PM
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Keon was great, and a case could probably be made for his as best leaf, but I'll take Conacher followed by Horton and Apps. Because of his clutch play I'll take Teeder Kennedy next.

Phil, you're right when you say that the Leafs would be last as far as best single player ever is concerned in the original six. Orr, Howe, Rocket, Hull, and Messier/Park (depending if you'll count Messier) would all be ahead of any Leaf IMO.

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12-31-2007, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Let's be honest. I like Keon and have no beef with him whatsoever but with his indifferent relationship with the Leafs was his status as the #1 Leaf of all time (in a recent well respected vote) a little way of sucking up to him?

Personally I dont think its a good thing when Keon is the best player that has played for the Leafs. The Habs have Beliveau/Lafleur/Harvey/Richard, Boston has Orr/Espo, Chicago has Hull/Mikita, Detroit has Howe/Lindsay. Only the Rangers might have worse all time greats among the Original 6 but even then I'll take Bathgate over Keon 10 days a week.

Alright so Keon never had a bad game. I'll admit he was extremely solid. But Mike Richards never has a bad game either. Rod BrindAmour doenst either. Gainey rarely did. Being extremely solid is a great asset. He was a winner and a leader and his two way game is rivaled by few but he was never a DOMINANT player, just a very, very good one for many years. Never was he a top 5 player in the game, not once. And I doubt someone can find a season where he was. Is this what we should call the best Leaf of all time?

To me he's benefitted from the Leaf fans that have cried over his dismissal of the team. Stuff like this might help him feel more respect from the Leafs. Kind of like Patrick Roy being considered the best Hab of all time. If that happened wouldnt you think to yourself "oh yeah they're just trying to get back on good terms with him again." I know I did with Keon. Again nothing against him as a player but he's not #1.

Syl Apps, Turk Broda, Charlie Conacher, Ted Kennedy can all make a good case for being much better. At least one of these guys had a high peak and within the NHL were considered to be among the best in the game if not the best. Anyone else feel what I'm feeling?
Odd that he is brought up as he reminds me a lot of Dave Keon, but is your point that Richards will never be considered great? I find that odd considering his well rounded game at such a young age.

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12-31-2007, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by raleh View Post
Keon was great, and a case could probably be made for his as best leaf, but I'll take Conacher followed by Horton and Apps. Because of his clutch play I'll take Teeder Kennedy next.

Phil, you're right when you say that the Leafs would be last as far as best single player ever is concerned in the original six. Orr, Howe, Rocket, Hull, and Messier/Park (depending if you'll count Messier) would all be ahead of any Leaf IMO.
It might just be me, but favoring nearly EVERY player for Dave Keon on "clutch play" basis doesn't make sense. There had to be another reason.


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12-31-2007, 07:47 PM
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Kinda splitting hairs between Kennedy's and Keon's clutch play.

The Leafs lack a defining superstar, they do have a rich history or great players though. There are 5-10 players worthy of the title.

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12-31-2007, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
Keon was great, and a case could probably be made for his as best leaf, but I'll take Conacher followed by Horton and Apps. Because of his clutch play I'll take Teeder Kennedy next.

Phil, you're right when you say that the Leafs would be last as far as best single player ever is concerned in the original six. Orr, Howe, Rocket, Hull, and Messier/Park (depending if you'll count Messier) would all be ahead of any Leaf IMO.
You can make a point about Turk Broda being a better player than Brad Park as well. And, well, I'd take Terry Sawchuck ahead Brad Park.... And I'm really no Sawchuck fan.

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12-31-2007, 09:28 PM
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I would not call it a suck up at all. Dave Keon was probably the most popular Leaf during his tenure. Plus the teams he played on won the most recent cups in Leaf history. Sittler & Sundin are also quite popular but those teams didn't win anything.

My personal choice as best Leaf ever would be Charlie Conacher. However, not much chance of him being picked best ever as no one alive today saw him play. Keon played in an era that a lot of people who are still around watched. Also he was the face of a team that won cups. that is why he is # 1.

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01-01-2008, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Odd that he is brought up as he reminds me a lot of Dave Keon, but is your point that Richards will never be considered great? I find that odd considering his well rounded game at such a young age.
No, Richards can be considered great someday, I mean he's only 22. But he was just an example I thought. He plays an errorless game and does almost everything right. Maybe BrindAmour is a better example.

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01-01-2008, 05:00 PM
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You can make a point about Turk Broda being a better player than Brad Park as well. And, well, I'd take Terry Sawchuck ahead Brad Park.... And I'm really no Sawchuck fan.
Cant really take Sawchuk since he only played 3 years for Toronto. Is he the best player to ever wear a Leaf uniform? I think so, but he isnt the best LEAF. He'd be more like an all time great Red Wing

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01-01-2008, 05:17 PM
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The best Leafs player - that spent the majority of his career in Toronto - is Ted Kennedy. Had they awarded the Conn Smythe pre-1965 he would have won 3 of them (SIHR/HOF Projected Conn Smythe Winners List). He is #47 on my all-time playmakers list, #91 on my all time goals list and #31 in all-time Hart Trophy balloting.

The greatest Leaf is Ted Kennedy. The greatest Leaf goaltender is Turk Broda.


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01-02-2008, 10:51 AM
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Certainly not. Keon is on the top of my list, but as another poster mentioned, the Leafs don't have a consensus #1. Apps, Keon, Conacher,Salming, Kennedy, Horton, Broda and even Sundin could all warrent legitimate consideration.


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01-02-2008, 11:15 AM
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Cant really take Sawchuk since he only played 3 years for Toronto. Is he the best player to ever wear a Leaf uniform? I think so, but he isnt the best LEAF. He'd be more like an all time great Red Wing
Well, somebody included Messier as a Ranger, so...

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01-02-2008, 11:43 AM
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I have no problem with Keon being cited as the Leaf's top all-time player. Get a perverse sort of pleasure at having a Quebecer hold that distinction.

His skills and tenacity played a big part in what was the Leafs' Golden Age, a period of time when they were almost autonatic Cup contenders at the outset of every season, culminating with the Over The Hill Gang and their 1967 title.

(Stephen Cole's The Last Hurrah is an interesting look at the last season of the 6-team NHL)

Keon deserves consideration as possibly the smartest Leaf of all time if only for being the only NHLer not to sign on with the NHLPA. Seems Mrs. Keon just didn't trust this lawyer fellow, Eagleson, at all and her hubby was of the same opinion.

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01-02-2008, 05:13 PM
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Big Phil
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Keon deserves consideration as possibly the smartest Leaf of all time if only for being the only NHLer not to sign on with the NHLPA. Seems Mrs. Keon just didn't trust this lawyer fellow, Eagleson, at all and her hubby was of the same opinion.
And there is the reason why Keon was not picked for Team Canada in '72. The team was picked for the large part by Eagleson.

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01-02-2008, 05:51 PM
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I don't think it's a suck-up at all.

Is Keon the best player to ever play for the Leafs? No. But there is a world of difference the best player a franchise has ever had, and the greatest player a franchise has ever had. The greatest player is the face of the franchise, the guy the knowledgeable fans associate with the team, a guy who made a big contribution on the ice and off the ice, the guy who made a big contribution to their greatest triumphs.

Would Keon be my pick for the greatest Leaf of all-time? No. Teeder Kennedy would be my pick. But Keon would be right up there, likely in the top three. I certainly don't fault anyone who has Keon at No. 1. As stated before, there are several players who could be No. 1 on an all-time Leaf list. The Leafs and the Rangers are the two O-6 franchises that don't have a consensus No. 1. Montreal has Richard. Boston has Orr. Chicago has Hull. Detroit has Howe. Toronto has a list.

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01-02-2008, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
Keon was great, and a case could probably be made for his as best leaf, but I'll take Conacher followed by Horton and Apps. Because of his clutch play I'll take Teeder Kennedy next.

Phil, you're right when you say that the Leafs would be last as far as best single player ever is concerned in the original six. Orr, Howe, Rocket, Hull, and Messier/Park (depending if you'll count Messier) would all be ahead of any Leaf IMO.
Brad Park?

Are you kidding me? Brian Leetch was much, much better than
Brad Park

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01-02-2008, 06:24 PM
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Brad Park?

Are you kidding me? Brian Leetch was much, much better than
Brad Park
Brian Leetch was a much, much lesser player than players lesser to Brad Park.

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01-02-2008, 08:16 PM
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Brian Leetch was a much, much lesser player than players lesser to Brad Park.
'94 Leetch was pretty good. Good enough to be one tier below Park.

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01-02-2008, 09:05 PM
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Brad Park?

Are you kidding me? Brian Leetch was much, much better than
Brad Park
Not a chance

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01-03-2008, 03:44 PM
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raleh
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You can make a point about Turk Broda being a better player than Brad Park as well. And, well, I'd take Terry Sawchuck ahead Brad Park.... And I'm really no Sawchuck fan.
I'll take Park over any Leaf of all time, but there's probably some bias there. I have Park being pretty darn close to top 10 Dmen all time. I would most certainly take Sawchuck ahead of Park, but I consider him a Red Wing. I did mention Messier as a Ranger, but to be fair I did put in brackets "depending on if we count him".

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01-03-2008, 03:52 PM
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I'll take Park over any Leaf of all time, but there's probably some bias there. I have Park being pretty darn close to top 10 Dmen all time. I would most certainly take Sawchuck ahead of Park, but I consider him a Red Wing. I did mention Messier as a Ranger, but to be fair I did put in brackets "depending on if we count him".
Fair enough... But Broda is IMO Top-10 goaltender, and I probably have him higher than most does...

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01-03-2008, 03:55 PM
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Fair enough... But Broda is IMO Top-10 goaltender, and I probably have him higher than most does...
Agreed. A couple Vezinas, Cups on either side of the war, and a clutch goalie and one I have in my top 10 as well (although there's very little difference between #10 and a lot of the ones I'd slate behind him).

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01-03-2008, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
I'll take Park over any Leaf of all time, but there's probably some bias there. I have Park being pretty darn close to top 10 Dmen all time. I would most certainly take Sawchuck ahead of Park, but I consider him a Red Wing. I did mention Messier as a Ranger, but to be fair I did put in brackets "depending on if we count him".

well we all know how many cups brad park won as a player

teeder kennedy > park

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01-03-2008, 09:10 PM
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I'm curious to know why the guys who have said Kennedy over Keon have done so.

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