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Calgary-Philadelphia Proposal

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Old
01-01-2008, 01:35 PM
  #1
IlkaScoraGoala
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Calgary-Philadelphia Proposal

Does Calgary think about this deal:

Carter, Giroux, Parent, 1st Round pick, 2nd Round pick

FOR

Phaneuf

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01-01-2008, 01:39 PM
  #2
Ice Cream Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Does Calgary think about this deal:

Carter, Giroux, Parent, 1st Round pick, 2nd Round pick

FOR

Phaneuf
It's not terrible value-wise, but if I'm Calgary I keep looking.

What is your reasoning behind this proposal?

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01-01-2008, 01:44 PM
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I think Sutter would consider it... but the Flames have a lot of centres in the system as it is.

Any slam-dunk prospects on the wing?

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01-01-2008, 01:44 PM
  #4
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Carter, JVR, Parent, and the picks.

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01-01-2008, 01:45 PM
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phaneuf is not worth all that in my eyes. We r losing a top prospect ( my favorite one), carter who has alot of potential is havign a good year, AND two future picks

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01-01-2008, 01:55 PM
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Fine value but the flyers cant really afford phaneufs RFA demands.

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01-01-2008, 02:00 PM
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the Flames are in a win now mode with key guys signed to long term contracts... Iginla and Regehr are signed through 2013... Kipper through 2014 and to a less extent Sarich through 2012... letting Phaneuf leave after investing all that money in long term contracts would be very counter productive to acomplishing the goal of winning a stanley cup... while the trade is at least fair value it doesn't make sense for the Flames to step back into a bit of a rebuilding mode

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01-01-2008, 02:01 PM
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Fine value but the flyers cant really afford phaneufs RFA demands.
They would pay Phaneuf whatever he wants and then worry about the cap ramifications. Hatcher, Knuble, and Kapanen's salary could be easily be gone one way or another.

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01-01-2008, 02:03 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
the Flames are in a win now mode with key guys signed to long term contracts... Iginla and Regehr are signed through 2013... Kipper through 2014 and to a less extent Sarich through 2012... letting Phaneuf leave after investing all that money in long term contracts would be very counter productive to acomplishing the goal of winning a stanley cup... while the trade is at least fair value it doesn't make sense for the Flames to step back into a bit of a rebuilding mode
What if they are forced to? What if they cannot sign him longterm and know that they couldn't match an RFA deal in the $7-9 million dollar range. Aren't guys like Carter, Giroux, JVR, and Parent better than the picks that they would receive for compensation?

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01-01-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Carter, JVR, Parent, and the picks.
The Flyers would laugh at that.

I think the first offer is very fair. If JVR is to be involved, something else drops.


Last edited by thedjpd: 01-01-2008 at 02:13 PM.
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01-01-2008, 02:08 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
the Flames are in a win now mode with key guys signed to long term contracts... Iginla and Regehr are signed through 2013... Kipper through 2014 and to a less extent Sarich through 2012... letting Phaneuf leave after investing all that money in long term contracts would be very counter productive to acomplishing the goal of winning a stanley cup... while the trade is at least fair value it doesn't make sense for the Flames to step back into a bit of a rebuilding mode
Fair enough.

The Flyers' motivation in this is to get another puck mover back there. Parent, while has the potential to be a top pairing d-man, is still just a top pairing shutdown.

Flyers need puck movers, first and foremost.

Timonen-Smith
Coburn-Phaneuf
Jones-Vandermeer

is a great D lineup.

Personally, I'd take a package like that (without Parent maybe), and take a run at one of the other young d-man in the game (i.e., Suter, Weber). They aren't quite as good as Phaneuf, and will cost less overall to acquire and pay, and while may not have the same potential as Phaneuf, will have more than enough. They will serve the Flyers' needs the same.

I like Weber myself, especially because he's also a right handed shot.

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01-01-2008, 02:14 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
What if they are forced to? What if they cannot sign him longterm and know that they couldn't match an RFA deal in the $7-9 million dollar range. Aren't guys like Carter, Giroux, JVR, and Parent better than the picks that they would receive for compensation?
if Philly can make sap space why couldn't Calgary?? you claim the Flyers could shed salary to make room for Phaneuf... but yet the Flames couldn't??

the Flyers have $34,395,000 tied up between Briere, Timonen, Gagner, Hartnell, Biron, Hatcher, Knuble and Lupul... thats assuming the additional 5.6 million between Gauthier and Rathje won't matter

the Flames have about 2 million less tied up next season among their top 8 salaries... the Flames have the money to sign Phaneuf... it will just be at the expense of keeping Huselius and/or Langkow... and lets be honest here... its a no brainer to keep Phaneuf over those 2 guys... plus there is the option of signing Phaneuf to a smaller 1 year deal that takes him into arbitration... at that time the Flames will also have 13.1 million in 4 contracts expiring (Tanguay, Aucoin, Warrener and Eriksson)... the Flames cap situation IMO is alot more favorable than that of the Flyers

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01-01-2008, 02:47 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Fair enough.

The Flyers' motivation in this is to get another puck mover back there. Parent, while has the potential to be a top pairing d-man, is still just a top pairing shutdown.

Flyers need puck movers, first and foremost.

Timonen-Smith
Coburn-Phaneuf
Jones-Vandermeer

is a great D lineup.

Personally, I'd take a package like that (without Parent maybe), and take a run at one of the other young d-man in the game (i.e., Suter, Weber). They aren't quite as good as Phaneuf, and will cost less overall to acquire and pay, and while may not have the same potential as Phaneuf, will have more than enough. They will serve the Flyers' needs the same.

I like Weber myself, especially because he's also a right handed shot.

What makes you think Suter or Weber would even be available? In many ways, Weber is as important to the Preds franchise right now as Richards is to Philly and he would probably be untouchable form a Nash perspective.

The Flyers obvioiusly have the young talent to package for guys like Weber, Phaneuf et al, but it takes two to tango and no GM wants to trade a core young dman.

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01-01-2008, 03:00 PM
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What makes you think Suter or Weber would even be available? In many ways, Weber is as important to the Preds franchise right now as Richards is to Philly and he would probably be untouchable form a Nash perspective.

The Flyers obvioiusly have the young talent to package for guys like Weber, Phaneuf et al, but it takes two to tango and no GM wants to trade a core young dman.
That's why I said take a run, not do what it takes to acquire.

Every player is available. Every player. The question is a matter of cost.

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01-01-2008, 03:02 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
if Philly can make sap space why couldn't Calgary?? you claim the Flyers could shed salary to make room for Phaneuf... but yet the Flames couldn't??

the Flyers have $34,395,000 tied up between Briere, Timonen, Gagner, Hartnell, Biron, Hatcher, Knuble and Lupul... thats assuming the additional 5.6 million between Gauthier and Rathje won't matter

the Flames have about 2 million less tied up next season among their top 8 salaries... the Flames have the money to sign Phaneuf... it will just be at the expense of keeping Huselius and/or Langkow... and lets be honest here... its a no brainer to keep Phaneuf over those 2 guys... plus there is the option of signing Phaneuf to a smaller 1 year deal that takes him into arbitration... at that time the Flames will also have 13.1 million in 4 contracts expiring (Tanguay, Aucoin, Warrener and Eriksson)... the Flames cap situation IMO is alot more favorable than that of the Flyers
Gauthier and Rathje don't matter. Knuble would be traded or waived. Ditto Hatcher. Ditto Kapanen. Smith wouldn't be resigned or he would be traded. The Flyers wouldn't care if they had a Phantoms payroll of $50 million and a Flyers payroll of 50 million. The Flyers don't even show up on Comcast's books, so they can do whatever they please money wise. The acquisition of a Phaneuf and a similar contract to Richards would follow. That's the way Ed Snider does business.

Do you think Phaneuf's agent is an idiot? Phaneuf's agent just saw the deal Mike Richards got and knows that his guy plays a position of more importance. Phaneuf on the open RFA market, which is now better than being a UFA and will be a Wild West this summer, would command a minumum of $7 million dollars. More than likely, you would get a team that would offer more. Why would Phaneuf accept a 1-year deal? When was last time arbitration was used?

Calgary can't afford to have a payroll near the $50 million dollar mark. Calgary can't afford to allow Phaneuf to set his own price because they cannot afford to match $7-8 million dollar a year deal. So, if Phaneuf doesn't get extended before the season is over, Calgary would have to think about trading him before losing him for nothing. And Calgary is cheap, I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a package of prospect and picks.

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01-01-2008, 03:03 PM
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That's why I said take a run, not do what it takes to acquire.

Every player is available. Every player. The question is a matter of cost.
Cost is the point. I'm not sure I completly buy your "every player is available" argument but the bottom line is that the price you would have to pay to acquire a guy like Shane Weber (even if he was available) would simply no be practical. You'd have to overpay grossly, just like a team would have to overpay to get Richards, etc.

The Flyers might find room for another UFA signing, and some of their young players could take a step forward, but you won't be acquiring a Weber via trade (IMO, at least).

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01-01-2008, 03:08 PM
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Cost is the point. I'm not sure I completly buy your "every player is available" argument but the bottom line is that the price you would have to pay to acquire a guy like Shane Weber (even if he was available) would simply no be practical. You'd have to overpay grossly, just like a team would have to overpay to get Richards, etc.

The Flyers might find room for another UFA signing, and some of their young players could take a step forward, but you won't be acquiring a Weber via trade (IMO, at least).
On the same note, there's no indication that Phaneuf is available, either, yet this proposal exists, which is sorta the basis for this since all of it is hypothetical on our end anyway.

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01-01-2008, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Gauthier and Rathje don't matter. Knuble would be traded or waived. Ditto Hatcher. Ditto Kapanen. Smith wouldn't be resigned or he would be traded. The Flyers wouldn't care if they had a Phantoms payroll of $50 million and a Flyers payroll of 50 million. The Flyers don't even show up on Comcast's books, so they can do whatever they please money wise. The acquisition of a Phaneuf and a similar contract to Richards would follow. That's the way Ed Snider does business.

Do you think Phaneuf's agent is an idiot? Phaneuf's agent just saw the deal Mike Richards got and knows that his guy plays a position of more importance. Phaneuf on the open RFA market, which is now better than being a UFA and will be a Wild West this summer, would command a minumum of $7 million dollars. More than likely, you would get a team that would offer more. Why would Phaneuf accept a 1-year deal? When was last time arbitration was used?

Calgary can't afford to have a payroll near the $50 million dollar mark. Calgary can't afford to allow Phaneuf to set his own price because they cannot afford to match $7-8 million dollar a year deal. So, if Phaneuf doesn't get extended before the season is over, Calgary would have to think about trading him before losing him for nothing. And Calgary is cheap, I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a package of prospect and picks.
Wishful thinking and (with no offense meant) a bit of big market arrogance - the expectation that your wealthy team could afford to buy any player in the league. Even the Flyers have limits to what they will or can spend.

You can waive Hatcher and Kapanen tomorow and no team will take them. I don't think it is going to be nearly as easy to clear salary as you suggest.

I agree with Lunatik. The Flyers are in on better a position with regard to the Cap than the Flames.

I expect the Flames will manage to get Phaenuf locked up to a longterm deal, and I predict they'll do exactly as Lunatik suggests - let guys like Huselius walk to free up the space.

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01-01-2008, 03:10 PM
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On the same note, there's no indication that Phaneuf is available, either, yet this proposal exists, which is sorta the basis for this since all of it is hypothetical on our end anyway.

Well, then lets start a Richards trade proposal thread, because they expectation that you could get Phaneuf or Weber is about as realistic.

Its fun to fantasize though and as far as hypothetical discussoins go, you guys are least offering value for value.

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01-01-2008, 04:01 PM
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Wishful thinking and (with no offense meant) a bit of big market arrogance - the expectation that your wealthy team could afford to buy any player in the league. Even the Flyers have limits to what they will or can spend.

You can waive Hatcher and Kapanen tomorow and no team will take them. I don't think it is going to be nearly as easy to clear salary as you suggest.

I agree with Lunatik. The Flyers are in on better a position with regard to the Cap than the Flames.

I expect the Flames will manage to get Phaenuf locked up to a longterm deal, and I predict they'll do exactly as Lunatik suggests - let guys like Huselius walk to free up the space.
If teams don't take Hatcher or Kapanen, and I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that nobody would take them, their salary is still off the books (in terms of the cap) once they get assigned to the minors.

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01-01-2008, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Wishful thinking and (with no offense meant) a bit of big market arrogance - the expectation that your wealthy team could afford to buy any player in the league. Even the Flyers have limits to what they will or can spend.

You can waive Hatcher and Kapanen tomorow and no team will take them. I don't think it is going to be nearly as easy to clear salary as you suggest.

I agree with Lunatik. The Flyers are in on better a position with regard to the Cap than the Flames.

I expect the Flames will manage to get Phaenuf locked up to a longterm deal, and I predict they'll do exactly as Lunatik suggests - let guys like Huselius walk to free up the space.
The Flyers are owned by Comcast, they've paid more for teams before in the non cap era and those contracts are a drop in a bucket to them. With saying that, there is no chance of Phaneuf going anywheres. If the Flames move him, they're entire front office should be fired.

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01-01-2008, 04:44 PM
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As a Flyers fan I don't make that move. Carter JVR Giroux Parent are all exceptional talents and while Phaneuf is a great player I don't think hes worth those 4. I would consider Carter Parent a 1st and then a lesser spect like Andreas Nodl. But Calgary probably wouldn't bite on that.

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01-01-2008, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
if Philly can make sap space why couldn't Calgary?? you claim the Flyers could shed salary to make room for Phaneuf... but yet the Flames couldn't??

the Flyers have $34,395,000 tied up between Briere, Timonen, Gagner, Hartnell, Biron, Hatcher, Knuble and Lupul... thats assuming the additional 5.6 million between Gauthier and Rathje won't matter

the Flames have about 2 million less tied up next season among their top 8 salaries... the Flames have the money to sign Phaneuf... it will just be at the expense of keeping Huselius and/or Langkow... and lets be honest here... its a no brainer to keep Phaneuf over those 2 guys... plus there is the option of signing Phaneuf to a smaller 1 year deal that takes him into arbitration... at that time the Flames will also have 13.1 million in 4 contracts expiring (Tanguay, Aucoin, Warrener and Eriksson)... the Flames cap situation IMO is alot more favorable than that of the Flyers
Yeah, not really. No player is going to sign a one year deal for less money just to give the team more leverage the following year, that's insane. Phaneuf is getting something in the range of a $30m/5 contract. It'll almost definitely be from Calgary (worst case they match an offer and make room), but I don't see any way he takes less then that.

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01-01-2008, 05:29 PM
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Yeah, not really. No player is going to sign a one year deal for less money just to give the team more leverage the following year, that's insane. Phaneuf is getting something in the range of a $30m/5 contract. It'll almost definitely be from Calgary (worst case they match an offer and make room), but I don't see any way he takes less then that.
you realize the player can take the team to arbitration now right?... plus waiting 1 year to sign a long term deal isn't a bad thing for a player developing... by signing a 1 year deal now when the Flames are tight to the cap he could ensure an even bigger payday the following summer when they have more cap space and he is even further developed

and i think this is the very reason a guy like Brad Stuart wanted 1 year deal this summer... because during a weaker UFA year he will get more money than he would have by signing a long term contract

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01-01-2008, 06:49 PM
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you realize the player can take the team to arbitration now right?... plus waiting 1 year to sign a long term deal isn't a bad thing for a player developing... by signing a 1 year deal now when the Flames are tight to the cap he could ensure an even bigger payday the following summer when they have more cap space and he is even further developed

and i think this is the very reason a guy like Brad Stuart wanted 1 year deal this summer... because during a weaker UFA year he will get more money than he would have by signing a long term contract
A player could always take a team to arbitration, but star players never did, because arbitration is an artificial system that forces the team to pay something, but still significantly less then market value. What changed is that a team can now take a player, which prevents them from receiving offer sheets. I Vanek was arbitration eligible last offseason he'd be making maybe $2.5-$3m on a one year deal, and with the season he's having he'd be lucky to get $5m a year for his new contract. Instead he banked $10m this year.

Brad Stuart wanted a one year deal for the exact reason Phaneuf is never going to sign one. Last offseason Stuart was a RFA, this one he is a UFA. Thats a significant increase in leverage.

Phaneuf has tons of leverage right now, he is young, already one of the top 5 defensemen in the league. There will be a line of clubs willing to part with a couple first round picks to get a player like that. As you said, his team is built to win now, so he doesn't even really care who signs on the dotted line since it's probably gonna get matched anyway. The threat of the offersheet will force the Flames to give him an early high offer, to keep him off the market.

If he signs a one year deal, (let's say $3m) there is no threat of an offersheet, and he gets a low offer or goes to arbitration. Lets say he gets $4m in arbitration, he would be losing $5m in potential income. Is he going to get $23/3 to make up for it? Not likely, he'd have to give up more free agent years to get $7m a year. Thats all assuming both this year and next are played at the same high standard, and he doesn't get injured.

I'll say it again, no player is going to give up money and leverage. They might trade one for the other, but they won't give up both. I'm confident that Phaneuf will be wearing a Calgary jersey next year, but he'll have a nice new long-term contract to go along with it.

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