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Calgary-Philadelphia Proposal

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Old
01-01-2008, 09:20 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krantan View Post
A player could always take a team to arbitration, but star players never did, because arbitration is an artificial system that forces the team to pay something, but still significantly less then market value. What changed is that a team can now take a player, which prevents them from receiving offer sheets. I Vanek was arbitration eligible last offseason he'd be making maybe $2.5-$3m on a one year deal, and with the season he's having he'd be lucky to get $5m a year for his new contract. Instead he banked $10m this year.

Brad Stuart wanted a one year deal for the exact reason Phaneuf is never going to sign one. Last offseason Stuart was a RFA, this one he is a UFA. Thats a significant increase in leverage.

Phaneuf has tons of leverage right now, he is young, already one of the top 5 defensemen in the league. There will be a line of clubs willing to part with a couple first round picks to get a player like that. As you said, his team is built to win now, so he doesn't even really care who signs on the dotted line since it's probably gonna get matched anyway. The threat of the offersheet will force the Flames to give him an early high offer, to keep him off the market.

If he signs a one year deal, (let's say $3m) there is no threat of an offersheet, and he gets a low offer or goes to arbitration. Lets say he gets $4m in arbitration, he would be losing $5m in potential income. Is he going to get $23/3 to make up for it? Not likely, he'd have to give up more free agent years to get $7m a year. Thats all assuming both this year and next are played at the same high standard, and he doesn't get injured.

I'll say it again, no player is going to give up money and leverage. They might trade one for the other, but they won't give up both. I'm confident that Phaneuf will be wearing a Calgary jersey next year, but he'll have a nice new long-term contract to go along with it.
Stuart was already a UFA or he'd still be in Calgary

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01-01-2008, 09:39 PM
  #27
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I LOVE Phaneuf, but the Flyers will not trade Giroux, JVR, or Parent unless it is someone like Phaneuf. In my opinion, Carter would make an better winger then center, he cant pass.

Oh, and the Flyers can EASILY clear cap space. Gauthier is making 2 million a year on the Phantoms, and he will probably be joined by Hatcher next year. Thats the benefit big market teams like the Flyers and Rangers have because they can send all their cap mistakes into the AHL.

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Old
01-01-2008, 09:51 PM
  #28
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I also love Phaneuf, but I would not want to give up the massive return he looks to command.

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01-01-2008, 10:12 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Well, then lets start a Richards trade proposal thread, because they expectation that you could get Phaneuf or Weber is about as realistic.

Its fun to fantasize though and as far as hypothetical discussoins go, you guys are least offering value for value.

Honestly, I think this was the whole point. Everyone knows that Phaneuf isn't available and really, only someone with their heads in the clouds would think that Calg couldn't and wouldn't clear enough cap space (or self imposed LOWER cap limit) to keep Phaneuf. However, the point was, from a Flyers POV we DO have the assets to offer that might be enough to attract interest IF (and again, we all know this is just a fantasy dream) he were available.

Honestly, I don't think the package offered in the original post would be enough. I think that if the Flames were to trade Dion that they'd want a good young dman ready right now, not a prospect who may or may not work out in a few years. I think any deal with the Flyers would start with Carter and Coburn and work up from there. From a logical POV, for the Flyers to re-sign Dion, not only would Hatcher, Smith, Vandermeer and Kapanen have to go, they'd either have to shed Knuble to be able to re-sign Umberger or they'd have to include Umberger in the trade for Phaneuf.

I think, from Calgs POV, I would be looking for Carter, Umberger, Coburn and a pick for Phaneuf. That's an awful lot for Philly to give up but lets face it, Phaneuf is (or at least will be) and elite player and the guys Philly would be looking to send back are at best just very good players. Dion will be a perenial allstar and Noris canidate while it would be a long shot for any of the Flyers players to be allstars. To get an elite, franchise type player, you are going to have to give up a lot. If the Flyers are NOt going to offer JVR, then I'd expect any package to include a number of very good looking young players currently in the NHL, not a bunch of prospects that may or may not work out.

Even if Dion wasn't available (and we know he isn't), the package I suggested would at least get looked at by their GM. He'd still have to turn it down because you just CAN'T trade a franchise type player unless either they demand to be traded or you are getting a franchise player in return. Though I've suggested a very good package for Dion, it doesn't meet either of the 2 circumstances necessary to trade a franchise type player.


Last edited by phlocky: 01-01-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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Old
01-01-2008, 11:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Honestly, I think this was the whole point. Everyone knows that Phaneuf isn't available and really, only someone with their heads in the clouds would think that Calg couldn't and wouldn't clear enough cap space (or self imposed LOWER cap limit) to keep Phaneuf. However, the point was, from a Flyers POV we DO have the assets to offer that might be enough to attract interest IF (and again, we all know this is just a fantasy dream) he were available.

Honestly, I don't think the package offered in the original post would be enough. I think that if the Flames were to trade Dion that they'd want a good young dman ready right now, not a prospect who may or may not work out in a few years. I think any deal with the Flyers would start with Carter and Coburn and work up from there. From a logical POV, for the Flyers to re-sign Dion, not only would Hatcher, Smith, Vandermeer and Kapanen have to go, they'd either have to shed Knuble to be able to re-sign Umberger or they'd have to include Umberger in the trade for Phaneuf.

I think, from Calgs POV, I would be looking for Carter, Umberger, Coburn and a pick for Phaneuf. That's an awful lot for Philly to give up but lets face it, Phaneuf is (or at least will be) and elite player and the guys Philly would be looking to send back are at best just very good players. Dion will be a perenial allstar and Noris canidate while it would be a long shot for any of the Flyers players to be allstars. To get an elite, franchise type player, you are going to have to give up a lot. If the Flyers are NOt going to offer JVR, then I'd expect any package to include a number of very good looking young players currently in the NHL, not a bunch of prospects that may or may not work out.

Even if Dion wasn't available (and we know he isn't), the package I suggested would at least get looked at by their GM. He'd still have to turn it down because you just CAN'T trade a franchise type player unless either they demand to be traded or you are getting a franchise player in return. Though I've suggested a very good package for Dion, it doesn't meet either of the 2 circumstances necessary to trade a franchise type player.

I think the fact that you are able to put together a fair offer, shows what a great job your GM has done in recent years. As an Islander fan, I simply couldn't come up with a package of assets that would equal Phaneuf.

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Old
01-02-2008, 02:32 AM
  #31
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From my point of view the Flyers need a dynamic all around defenseman. Phaneuf IS one and he's got franchise potential.

They are very strong at wing and are set at #1 and #2 center. So they're in a good position to move from that point.

Carter- His days are likely numbered with the Flyers. If he gets as good as people expect him too he'll be unaffordable. And if he doesn't get that good he'll never be good enough in an all around game to be an effective 3rd line center.

Giroux/JVR- They are very deep at winger and with all the current people in our system we will not be able to keep them all. Giroux, JVR, Downie, Lupul, Umberger, Upshall, Nodl, Gagne, Hartnell. This guys are all already or have top-6 potential. This doesn't even account for guys who will come in and suprise people like Kyle Greentree. This makes it a very good position to trade from for the Flyers.

Parent- He's an excellent defensive prospect who I wouldn't want to lose. But your getting a much better (now and future) defenseman back so it makes up for that loss.

The picks- They're picks. The players may or may not pan out. They are certainly valuable but even with this trade the Flyers will have good depth in the system (except and goaltender) in the coming years.

The only real problem from a Flyer's perspective I see is the salary cap. Calgary would certainly have to take some offsetting salary in the deal and in this case they would be taking very little.

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Old
01-02-2008, 03:33 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Does Calgary think about this deal:

Carter, Giroux, Parent, 1st Round pick, 2nd Round pick

FOR

Phaneuf
Sutter says no.

The picks are intriguing if the Flyers were as bad as last year but right now their not.

Theres probably only 4-5 guys Sutter would consider trading Phaneuf for. And they don't play for the Flyers.

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Old
01-02-2008, 08:20 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Sutter says no.

The picks are intriguing if the Flyers were as bad as last year but right now their not.

Theres probably only 4-5 guys Sutter would consider trading Phaneuf for. And they don't play for the Flyers.
I would think that Mike Richards would get his attention, not that he would be offered.

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01-02-2008, 10:10 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I would think that Mike Richards would get his attention, not that he would be offered.
I doubt it with Richard's new contract... Sutter had never signed anyone to anything longer than a 3 year contract until this summer... and if the rumors are correct he is only offering Phaneuf 5 years... so I don't see him all that interested in a player under contract for longer than a decade

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01-02-2008, 10:12 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Carter, JVR, Parent, and the picks.
Thats a huge price..

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01-02-2008, 10:21 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Thats a huge price..
Yeah, the way JVR is playing right now, I would probably offer up Giroux first, but it's still a huge amount to deal.

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01-02-2008, 10:55 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Yeah, the way JVR is playing right now, I would probably offer up Giroux first, but it's still a huge amount to deal.
So far he is the best forward in 2008 WJC.

Phaneuf is great but Flyers giving up 25 goal scorer in Carter (he will score that much this season), JVR looks like a real deal, Parent has all the tools to become a very good top 4 stay home d-man not to mention picks. Carter is 6'3 so is JVR and Parent is about 6'2. We would have to sign Phaneuf to a long term around 6M a year.. No cap flexibility. As good as Phaneuf is I think we better off.

Flyers would have to move Timonen in this deal. Timonen plus young players and picks? I think we should start with Timonens contract going back to CAL.

JVR plus Timonen for Phaneuf?
Carter + Timonen and 1st for Phaneuf?

Or if CAL interested in Gagne, he is making 5M.
Gagne + Carter and 1st? Roughly 7.5M in contracts.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 01-02-2008 at 11:04 AM.
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01-02-2008, 11:08 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
So far he is the best forward in 2008 WJC.

Phaneuf is great but Flyers giving up 25 goal scorer in Carter (he will score that much this season), JVR looks like a real deal, Parent has all the tools to become a very good top 4 stay home d-man not to mention picks. Carter is 6'3 so is JVR and Parent is about 6'2. We would have to sign Phaneuf to a long term around 6M a year.. No cap flexibility. As good as Phaneuf is I think we better off.

Flyers would have to move Timonen in this deal. Timonen plus young players and picks? I think we should start with Timonens contract going back to CAL.

JVR plus Timonen for Phaneuf?
Carter + Timonen and 1st for Phaneuf?

Or if CAL interested in Gagne, he is making 5M.
Gagne + Carter and 1st? Roughly 7.5M in contracts.
i dont think there is any deal that would get calgary interested to be honest... nothing short of another blossoming superstar would be considered IMO

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01-02-2008, 02:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Or if CAL interested in Gagne, he is making 5M.
Gagne + Carter and 1st? Roughly 7.5M in contracts.
I like this deal but the flames need a d-man in return. Swap out the 1st for Parent.

Gagne + Carter + Parent for Phaneuf

Sold from a flames fan.

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01-02-2008, 03:21 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
What makes you think Suter or Weber would even be available? In many ways, Weber is as important to the Preds franchise right now as Richards is to Philly and he would probably be untouchable form a Nash perspective.

The Flyers obvioiusly have the young talent to package for guys like Weber, Phaneuf et al, but it takes two to tango and no GM wants to trade a core young dman.
Isn't Nashville Philly's farm team??

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01-02-2008, 03:53 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post
I like this deal but the flames need a d-man in return. Swap out the 1st for Parent.

Gagne + Carter + Parent for Phaneuf

Sold from a flames fan.
you both imo are over-valuing phanuef. he's not worth a first line winger, a potential first line centre and a top 4 dman.

secondly, i dont think calgary has the cap space to take in these three players. carter is a RFA after this season, and the flames will probably have to resign langkow. ditto for the flyers.

if this trade were to go down, i can see a lot of flames fans being happy, but id be pissed as a flyers fan

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01-02-2008, 06:49 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Does Calgary think about this deal:

Carter, Giroux, Parent, 1st Round pick, 2nd Round pick

FOR

Phaneuf
That's a lot to give up. Two very-real potential first line forwards, a potential first line defenseman and a first + second for a certain first two defenseman? Take out the picks and i'd talk.

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01-03-2008, 09:55 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Does Calgary think about this deal:

Carter, Giroux, Parent, 1st Round pick, 2nd Round pick

FOR

Phaneuf
overpayment by the flyers, take out giroux.

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01-03-2008, 10:07 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Java View Post
I like this deal but the flames need a d-man in return. Swap out the 1st for Parent.

Gagne + Carter + Parent for Phaneuf

Sold from a flames fan.
You are getting roughly 55-60 goals plus both Gagne and Carter ok on D. Settle for Picard instead?

Wasn't Huselius waived by Florida.. He played very well yesterday, great moves around NYR D.

P.S I loved how Phaneuf leveled Shanny yesterday... Great open ice hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
i dont think there is any deal that would get calgary interested to be honest... nothing short of another blossoming superstar would be considered IMO
I can understand that. Fair enough..


Last edited by Kaktus*: 01-03-2008 at 10:15 AM.
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01-03-2008, 10:37 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Does Calgary think about this deal:

Carter, Giroux, Parent, 1st Round pick, 2nd Round pick

FOR

Phaneuf
That is a great proposal. One that both sides would/should consider. IMO

Kudos to the thread starter

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01-03-2008, 10:57 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
They would pay Phaneuf whatever he wants and then worry about the cap ramifications. Hatcher, Knuble, and Kapanen's salary could be easily be gone one way or another.
They already did that with Mike Richards, and trading Carter is the ramification. If we have enough room to sign Phaneuf, we have enough room to sign Carter and our other RFA's. In fact, the cheap, young, talented players thrown into the trade proposals are precisely the assets we would need to make cap space for Phaneuf.

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01-03-2008, 11:04 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
So far he is the best forward in 2008 WJC.

Phaneuf is great but Flyers giving up 25 goal scorer in Carter (he will score that much this season), JVR looks like a real deal, Parent has all the tools to become a very good top 4 stay home d-man not to mention picks. Carter is 6'3 so is JVR and Parent is about 6'2. We would have to sign Phaneuf to a long term around 6M a year.. No cap flexibility. As good as Phaneuf is I think we better off.

Flyers would have to move Timonen in this deal. Timonen plus young players and picks? I think we should start with Timonens contract going back to CAL.

JVR plus Timonen for Phaneuf?
Carter + Timonen and 1st for Phaneuf?

Or if CAL interested in Gagne, he is making 5M.
Gagne + Carter and 1st? Roughly 7.5M in contracts.
If the Flames could afford to eat Timonen's contract, they can afford to pay Phaneuf. THe inclusion of fat contracts like Timonen and Gagne would kill it from the start since the very premise is that this deal would be made to give the Flames major cap room.

If Phaneuf was available (and I agree with Lunatik that he is not), a package of assets like Parent, JVR, and Carter would be what it would take.

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01-03-2008, 11:06 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post
Calgary can't afford to have a payroll near the $50 million dollar mark. Calgary can't afford to allow Phaneuf to set his own price because they cannot afford to match $7-8 million dollar a year deal. So, if Phaneuf doesn't get extended before the season is over, Calgary would have to think about trading him before losing him for nothing. And Calgary is cheap, I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a package of prospect and picks.
please explain

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01-03-2008, 11:13 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
If the Flames could afford to eat Timonen's contract, they can afford to pay Phaneuf. THe inclusion of fat contracts like Timonen and Gagne would kill it from the start since the very premise is that this deal would be made to give the Flames major cap room.

If Phaneuf was available (and I agree with Lunatik that he is not), a package of assets like Parent, JVR, and Carter would be what it would take.
1. What is wrong with Timonens/Gagnes contract?
2. If Flyers give up Parent, JVR, and Carter for Phaneuf how are we going to sign him with out moving at least one contract.

I understand you are looking for top prospects because you are giving up an excellent young player but there is no way we can sign Phaneuf unless we move someone. mAybe 3 way trade would be a better option.

Lets say Flyers trade Smith to Washington
1.Washington gives up a decent d-sive prospect to CAL (Seabrook/Godfrey/Schultz) plus 2nd or a prospect that CAL GM wants and Washington GM is willing to give up... Not sure.
2. Flyers move Timonen, Carter, Giroux and 1st to CAL.

CAL gets: Good prospect plus 2nd from Washington and Timonen, Carter, Giroux and 1st. Tough to lose Phaneuf who is great but hey this deal can be done.

.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 01-03-2008 at 11:32 AM.
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01-03-2008, 11:15 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
1. What is wrong with Timonens/Gagnes contract?
.
nothing is wrong with their contracts, but I assume any discussion of the Flames trading Phaneuf (who the GM really really likes) is based on them not having the CAP room to fit in his hypothetical demands while filling other team holes

the Flames , as others have pointed out, are in a mode where they want to win with Iginla/Regehr/Kipper locked down long term. I highly doubt they move Phaneuf, but if they do it would be to free up cap space, and ideally still get some players that could contribute

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