HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Oates trade revisisted

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-23-2004, 06:14 PM
  #1
Brodeur
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 11,898
vCash: 500
Oates trade revisisted

I know I'm probably in the minority in this, but the Flyers/Caps trade with Oates isn't the worst trade I've ever seen. I only mention this because it's generally considered to be one of the most lopsided trades in recent memory.

The final tally:

Washington:
G Maxime Ouellet
26th overall (pick was traded, Dallas used it on D Martin Vagner)
59th overall (G Maxime Daignault)
92nd overall (C Derek Krestanovich)

Philadelphia:
C Adam Oates
85th overall (D Alexander Picard) -- 2003 draft pick compensation for losing Oates to Anaheim

Even with Oates' lackluster performance in Orange and Black, I think losing Ouellet was worth taking a shot in their situation. Don't think Clarke is really sweating bullets on missing out on a guy like Vagner, or a 2nd tier goalie prospect like Daignault; trading up and getting Pitkanen helps out a bunch too.

Plus, wasn't 2002 expected to be a really subpar draft year past the top 5 picks? I dunno, I think this trade just epitomizes how we sometimes overrate draft picks/prospects.

Brodeur is online now  
Old
01-23-2004, 06:49 PM
  #2
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,111
vCash: 500
Oates was leading the league in assists I believe, or close to it, upon the time of the trade.

Had the Flyers won the cup, Clarke would have been looked back on as a genius.

The trade wasn't a bad one, but it looks a lot worse than it was in hindsight.

I would say that Daigneault is a lot better than a '2nd teir goalie prospect' though.

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 06:53 PM
  #3
NJ_Devil_Boy
Registered User
 
NJ_Devil_Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,840
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Had the Flyers won the cup, Clarke would have been looked back on as a genius.
Agreed. I'm not a huge Clarke fan, but you have to admire a GM who has the ability/guts to pull the trigger on a deal when he thinks the team is x player(s) away from winning it all.

NJ_Devil_Boy is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 06:57 PM
  #4
PEli*
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: abroad
Posts: 8,901
vCash: 500
I'll admit that I was a non believer when the deal was made. I thought it was pretty stupid but as a newbie at HF, I completely overrated picks and prospects. It looks like a decent deal now.

Ouellet is a tough loss but the Flyers have decent goaltending prospects. None are as good as Ouellet but they're nothing to turn your nose up at. Getting Picard was a bonus too. I see him play a lot and as a Mooseheads homer, I like him a lot. Heh.

PEli* is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:17 PM
  #5
Fire Bobby Clarke
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
Funny how non flyer fans seem to think this wasn't a bad trade. Sure you look at who the picks were...never know could pan out but losing Oulette was brutal. The stigma of the Flyers has been goaltending yet they have never given a youngster time to grow in the organization since Hextall. Boucher they let go mind you wwe got pretty good value in return but Oulete was a very highly rate goalie who was thought to become an elite player.

Fire Bobby Clarke is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:19 PM
  #6
spence___
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
Washington:
G Maxime Ouellet
26th overall (pick was traded, Dallas used it on D Martin Vagner)
59th overall (G Maxime Daignault)
92nd overall (C Derek Krestanovich)

Philadelphia:
C Adam Oates
85th overall (D Alexander Picard) -- 2003 draft pick compensation for losing Oates to Anaheim
Is it even worth it to compare? Had the Flyer's kept those picks, they would've drafted different players.

spence___ is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:22 PM
  #7
spence___
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Bobby Clarke
Funny how non flyer fans seem to think this wasn't a bad trade. Sure you look at who the picks were...never know could pan out but losing Oulette was brutal. The stigma of the Flyers has been goaltending yet they have never given a youngster time to grow in the organization since Hextall. Boucher they let go mind you wwe got pretty good value in return but Oulete was a very highly rate goalie who was thought to become an elite player.

It was a bad trade, but the Flyers have more than enough resources available to land someone comparable to Ouellet.

spence___ is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:24 PM
  #8
Reign Nateo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,396
vCash: 500
Oullet will eventually make this an ugly trade on his own.

Reign Nateo is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:30 PM
  #9
Fire Bobby Clarke
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence___
It was a bad trade, but the Flyers have more than enough resources available to land someone comparable to Ouellet.
Sure they do but that is the point I am trying to make theydon't let the young goalies grow in the system.

Fire Bobby Clarke is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:33 PM
  #10
Marshall
Too right, man.
 
Marshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Old Town Alexandria
Posts: 11,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence___
It was a bad trade, but the Flyers have more than enough resources available to land someone comparable to Ouellet.
Until they actually DO land a decent goalie, this is not particularly relevant.

Marshall is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:37 PM
  #11
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,345
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall
Until they actually DO land a decent goalie, this is not particularly relevant.
Until Ouellet proves himself to be a #1 NHL goalie, he's not particularly relevant.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:38 PM
  #12
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
I know I'm probably in the minority in this, but the Flyers/Caps trade with Oates isn't the worst trade I've ever seen. I only mention this because it's generally considered to be one of the most lopsided trades in recent memory.

The final tally:

Washington:
G Maxime Ouellet
26th overall (pick was traded, Dallas used it on D Martin Vagner)
59th overall (G Maxime Daignault)
92nd overall (C Derek Krestanovich)

Philadelphia:
C Adam Oates
85th overall (D Alexander Picard) -- 2003 draft pick compensation for losing Oates to Anaheim
Indeed. People completely overrate picks. That wasn't such a bad trade. In this case, it just didn't work all that great.

One thing to keep in mind: Trades involving picks are tricky. Trying to analyze them based on what the Capitals drafted is completely irrelevant. That's what the Captals drafted. I much prefer how the Flyers draft. Forget the guys in brackets. They don't mean anything despite the fact this seem like a popular way to evaluate trades.

It is very early to assess those young players anyway. I mean, sure, Daignault doesn't look great (and probably never will) but hey, how many goalies this age do?

All in all, there was only a big outcry because we're at HF. It was an insignificant deal. Much more significant is how the Lightning could trade so easily a SUREFIRE star in the form of a top 4 pick for a loser and some pocket change.

In the case of Clarke, we're talking about a contender-level team who had the bad luck of losing their top 2 centers. This was alarming and justified getting one of the best setup man of all-time for some unknown quantities.

In the case of the Bolts, it was a middle of the road team with no pressure AT ALL to trade at this specific time simply bending over and taking it Button or Houle-style. The intent was good because Feaster felt he needed to shake things up but it was a terrible deal.

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:55 PM
  #13
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Another thing people need to keep in mind is that Roenick and Primeau went down in the same game, and both of their returns were unknown. The Flyers weren't the only team in the running for Oates. Clarke had his back against the wall. Does that mean it isn't a bad trade? No. But you have to factor in the situation leading to the trade.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 07:58 PM
  #14
Liquidrage*
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tallahassee
Posts: 2,721
vCash: 500
Who cares how the players pan out?
That's hindsight. The value of what he gave up could have been better used to help the team in other ways. As parts to another trade, or just building up the farm system. Or, you know, like having Outlette in goal and seeing how it works out.

The trade sucked because Clarke drastically overpaid for a rental of Oates.
Clarke panicked after injuries and gave up a LOT of value for a soon to be UFA.

It really made no sense. Sure, losing your top two centers means you're weak at center. He gave up a ton of value even though and even after the trade, the team wasn't as good as the team before the injuries. Sometimes you just have to accept the injuries and stand pat where you are.

If Brodeur got injured should the Devil's trade away youth and picks to get a fill-in goalie for a cup run? Most certinaly not. You swallow hard and hope for the best. But giving up tons of value for a fill-in goalie would not be a good move. And giving tons of value for a fill-in center wasn't a good move either.

Bonehead move in Clarke's career. Generally, he's done very well in trades though.

Liquidrage* is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 08:00 PM
  #15
spence___
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall
Until they actually DO land a decent goalie, this is not particularly relevant.
I was quoting 'Fire Bobby Clarke' and what I meant was, is that the Flyer's organization is better now than it was before the Oates trade.

spence___ is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 11:03 PM
  #16
thestonedkoala
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
You do realize that the 26th pick overall was traded along with another pick to move up to the 13th pick overall?

So basically it was:

To Washington
Maxime Ouellet
26th Overall Pick (Traded to Dallas with I believe another Pick??? for Alexander Semin, Dallas used that pick to pick Martin Vagner)
59th Overall Maxime Daigneault
92nd Overall for Derek...Long last name

To Philadelphia
Adam Oates
Compensation Pick, which they used to pick Alexander Picard

You seem to miss that because Washington got another pick the 26th, they used that coupled with their 2nd round pick, since they already got one from Philadelphia to pick up Semin, who in some rankings I saw was the second best skater from Europe, which could be true or not, BUT Washington got two high ranked players in the draft, due to having an extra first rounder and an extra second rounder.

The other thing is this: I find it really hypocritical of the Flyer fans to think that this trade was even when they think trading Ruslan Fedotenko and 2 2nd round draft picks (WHICH THEY USED to move around and grab other useful players) for the 4th overall pick.

Yeah, Pitkanen is world class talent but what good would he have done for Tampa if he was still developing through their systems? They needed good veteran, older players ready to play now they had a bunch of young gun guys like Richards and Lecavalier and needed to balance it out. Also Ruslan is still pretty young, he could still develop a little more, but to me these trades look about the same...

Flyers get had on the Oates trade, TB gets had on the Fedotenko trade BUT these trades happen for needs, not future.


Last edited by thestonedkoala: 01-23-2004 at 11:12 PM.
 
Old
01-23-2004, 11:19 PM
  #17
stanley
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
In the case of Clarke, we're talking about a contender-level team who had the bad luck of losing their top 2 centers. This was alarming and justified getting one of the best setup man of all-time for some unknown quantities.
For the sake of accurate discussion, I'm glad you mentioned, this, Vlad. On the weekend before the trade deadline, the Flyers lost Primeau to a knee injury. On the Monday night before the Tuesday deadline, Roenick was lost to a knee injury. Clarke really had no choice if he hoped to have his club have any chance in the off-season. Reviewing draft pick selections is a nice experiment, but it doesn't accurately reflect what would have happened had the trade not been made. It's just something to talk about, but it's meaningless in the grand scheme.

Another point that always gets to me is the fact that Oates didn't resign in Philadelphia, and how this somehow made the trade even worse. I'll never understand that one. The price was paid the minute the NHL approved the deal. The only thing the Flyers gained were exclusive rights to negotiate with Oates until July 1, and as it turned out, compensation because they incurred a net loss of free agents that summer.

As John mentioned, Ouellet isn't any closer to a full-time job than the guy the Flyers determined could replace him (Niittymaki).


Last edited by stanley: 01-23-2004 at 11:22 PM.
stanley is offline  
Old
01-23-2004, 11:21 PM
  #18
thestonedkoala
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
*shrugs* Goalies take time you know? I mean look at Fleury, Blackburn, DiPietro, Raycroft, Aebischer, Suave...all those goalies took time or are going to take time to become good or at least starters for their clubs.

 
Old
01-24-2004, 12:40 AM
  #19
Brodeur
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 11,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
Who cares how the players pan out?
That's hindsight. The value of what he gave up could have been better used to help the team in other ways. As parts to another trade, or just building up the farm system. Or, you know, like having Outlette in goal and seeing how it works out.

The trade sucked because Clarke drastically overpaid for a rental of Oates.
Clarke panicked after injuries and gave up a LOT of value for a soon to be UFA.
Well, I don't think Avs fans will argue that Pierre Lacroix gave up a ton of value in order to acquire Ray Bourque and Rob Blake. Fortunately for him, Bourque and Blake both decided to skip the open market and re-sign after being acquired.

And we hardly ever hear of the failed Theo Fleury to Colorado experiment (Robyn Regehr and a mid 2nd in a deep draft year). I'd rather have Robyn Regehr/mid 2nd over Ouellet + late 1st/late 2nd in a shallow draft year.

Basically, if Bourque had bolted the Avs to sign with somebody like the Flyers, would we be calling Lacroix an idiot for giving up a good 2nd liner in Brian Rolston, a then top 30 prospect in Sami Pahlsson, and a 1st rounder?

The value was there, the outcome was not for the Flyers and Oates.

Brodeur is online now  
Old
01-24-2004, 12:46 AM
  #20
thestonedkoala
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Value wasn't there for the Flyers...

What were they going to do with Oates when all their centers came back healthy? I mean they are already deep in center with a lot of old guys, so what would've happened? I know this was a rental player and I believe Clarke knew he was a rental player, and Washington also probably knew Oates wasn't going to stay long either (50/50 on that)...

Also it wasn't a shallow draft year for goalies...

Stephens, Harding, LeNeveu, and Deslauriers were all taken in the 2nd round...

2nd Edit: I don't consider the 2002 draft deep but it wasn't shallow I mean:

After the top 5 you got some good players like:

Alexander Semin
Steve Eminger
Pierre-Marc Bouchard
Keith Ballard
Chris Higgins
Denis Grebeshkov
Anton Babchuk
Cam Ward
Jonas Johansson
Sean Bergenheim

2nd round had
Jeff Deslauriers
Tobias Stephan
Josh Harding
Dave LeNeveu
Trevor Daley
Kirril Koltsov
Matt Stajan
Jiri Hudler
Maxime Daigneault
Johnny Boychuk
Tomas Fleischmann

3rd Round
Matthew Lombardi
Lukas Mensator

Past that
Aaron Rome (4th)
Lasse Pirjeta (5th)
Matt Foy (6th)

Yeah it might not be as deep as the 2003 draft was but there were steals and some good players that moved down to the 2nd round...In a couple years, we'll see how it goes.

3rd Edit: Also get your facts straight, this was the trade. Boston Bruins traded Ray Bourque and Dave Andreychuk to the Colorado Avalanche for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Sami Pahlsson and a 1st round selection (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000.

Pahlsson was moved for some players and so on, this to me is a more balanced trade because it involved two important players, Andreychuk and Bourque to Colorado and gave Boston some players they could use. I don't know why but I feel this was more balanced then anything.


Last edited by thestonedkoala: 01-24-2004 at 01:02 AM.
 
Old
01-24-2004, 01:21 AM
  #21
Brodeur
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 11,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
3rd Edit: Also get your facts straight, this was the trade. Boston Bruins traded Ray Bourque and Dave Andreychuk to the Colorado Avalanche for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Sami Pahlsson and a 1st round selection (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000.

Pahlsson was moved for some players and so on, this to me is a more balanced trade because it involved two important players, Andreychuk and Bourque to Colorado and gave Boston some players they could use. I don't know why but I feel this was more balanced then anything.
This was balanced because the Avs won a Cup and Bourque decided to stick around with the Avs whereas Rolston has been very solid for the B's.

And for the record, I knew the entire trade, I just decided to leave out lesser guys like Grenier out. The entire Fleury (and Chris Dingman) trade was Rene Corbet, Wade Belak, a player to be named later (presumably any Avs prospect not named Alex Tanguay), and a conditional draft pick (ended up being the compensatory pick the Avs got for not resigning Fleury). Happy?

Most people probably don't remember that Pahlsson was pretty hyped up leading to that point. Almost the equivalent to the Ouellet to that point. If anybody has the 2000 THN future watch handy, I think you'll find both Pahlsson and Ouellet in the top 30.

You must have missed the part about Roenick and Primeau going down with indefinite injuries in the same night. I'm just saying that the value (at least a few years ago) for a proven rental was pretty damn high in terms of prospect assets.

And again, I think you might be overrating some prospects there. I don't think anybody you listed past the 1st round have done anything to make me do a cartwheel. Prospects are nice to have, but sometimes you have to decide if you want to win a Cup, or if you want THN to list you high on their future watch once a year. You tell me which should have been the higher priority for the Flyers.

Brodeur is online now  
Old
01-24-2004, 01:44 AM
  #22
PecaFan
Registered User
 
PecaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ottawa (Go 'Nucks)
Posts: 8,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ_Devil_Boy
Agreed. I'm not a huge Clarke fan, but you have to admire a GM who has the ability/guts to pull the trigger on a deal when he thinks the team is x player(s) away from winning it all.
Yeah, Clarke overpaid a bit, but given the alternative of Clarke and someone like Brian Burke, who is too afraid to make a deadline deal, or too cheap to, I'll take Clark every time. Just sitting around doing nothing at deadline time is a sure recipe to *not* win the Cup. Yeah, only one team can win it as Burkie likes to say, but it's never the team that stands pat.

PecaFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2004, 02:35 AM
  #23
thestonedkoala
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
You must have missed the part about Roenick and Primeau going down with indefinite injuries in the same night. I'm just saying that the value (at least a few years ago) for a proven rental was pretty damn high in terms of prospect assets.

And again, I think you might be overrating some prospects there. I don't think anybody you listed past the 1st round have done anything to make me do a cartwheel. Prospects are nice to have, but sometimes you have to decide if you want to win a Cup, or if you want THN to list you high on their future watch once a year. You tell me which should have been the higher priority for the Flyers.
Oates still would've been a rental player even if Roenick and Primeau were out that season and into the postseason because they would've been back the next year. So what could've they done? Signed Oates and put him on wing? And I still think it's still pretty high now.

I am not overrating some prospects. Let's see Matt Foy had over 100 points in the minors, did really good at the prospect camp for the Wild, and the Wild scouts knew Foy had it in him, even though he had a rotten year in college or wherever he played. Stajan is playing for the Leafs. The goalies, all of them, are pretty strong. Ask any Dallas fan about Stephans. He doesn't get a lot of press. Harding is a possible franchise goalie with a good upside as a number 1 goalie for the Wild, including going to the Junior Championship, winning numerous awards. LeNeveau is an awesome goalie for the Coyotes. He's done extremely well for them in the AHL. Daigneault and Deslauriers are nice for the Caps and the Oilers, I can't comment on them. Lombardi is having a great season this year. Boychuk is a pretty good defensive prospect for the Avalanche.

The thing is, it wasn't just this trade that year that Clarke got had on. I know Pitkanen is one of the best, if not the best defensive prospect right now playing in the NHL. But the thing is if you look at the two trades that Clarke made, look at this:

To Philadelphia:
4th Overall Draft Pick (Joni Pitkanen)
Adam Oates
85th Overall in 2003 (Alexander Picard)

To Tampa Bay and Washington
Maxime Oullette
Ruslan Fedotenko
3 Philadelphia 2nds, which ended up being I believe Tobias Stephans and Maxime Daigneault, don't remember what the other one is...Tampa can you help me out here???)
26th Overall (Traded with one of the seconds for the 13th overall, Alexander Semin)

If not anything, depending on who the Flyers picked, they could've had a hell of a return for some of those guys. I know Pitkanen could have a bigger return, but basically that's a lot of prospects that the Flyers shipped out, which kind of feels like the Luongo trade, personally.

Yeah a cup run is nice but when you start really cutting into your draft depth for a rental player, even if he stayed, it would've caused problems.

The other thing is, couldn't they have found a cheaper player?

I mean Newy and Langer were traded for, that would've been nice for the Flyers and I don't think Devils broke the bank for that one, Arnott, McKay, and a 1st...

Cliff Ronning?

The question I have is, was Clarke that under the gun at the deadline to get a center in there. Did Roenick and Primeau have injuries right on the deadline?

I don't think I would've traded ALL that to the Capitals just for Oates but I would've tried to come up with something else and if that didn't work, try talking to Stars (last trade I believe of the day was between them and the Devils) to see what they had to offer,

Here's the thing Flyers don't get Oates, get someone like Ronning as a rental, cheaper, maybe for a 2nd or something (I believe a fourth was traded for him).

They keep their picks, 1st, 2nd and 3rd along with Oullette.

They see Pitkanen, Clarke wants to grab him. He packages up a deal with Dallas (similiar to Washington) to move up to the 13th and then trades that to one of the teams up along with Oullette (probably Tampa Bay)

Now with his remaining second he has, he drafts well one of the goalies in the later rounds. Now he has two good goalies Ni...errr...and the other goalie.

See, I don't know. I mean yes Oates was needed but was he so desperately needed that they had to have him instead of some other player?

Hell York was on the table too but then again, he wouldn't have been traded to to the Flyers.

My biggest problem and the problem I have with Clarke is that it feels like he didn't think it out, and he sacrifices a good chunk of the future for now, or really, really good bargining chips for later trades for now.

I guess I see things differently because I watch the Wild and I would've hated to see them trade:

Harding + their 1st (Brent Burns) their 2nd (Patrick O'Sullivan) and their 3rd (Danny Irmen) for a rental player like Oates to make it deeper into the playoffs.

If I could get someone like Ronning, Arnott (not possible for the Flyers, just saying), Newy for a 1st (Burns) and a couple players, I would've done that.

EDIT:

BTW: Antero Niittymäki was drafted one year before Ouellete...so he's had one more year to develop then Ouelette.


Last edited by thestonedkoala: 01-24-2004 at 02:50 AM.
 
Old
01-24-2004, 03:00 AM
  #24
Arastiroth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Manhattan
Country: United States
Posts: 1,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
If I could get someone like Ronning, Arnott (not possible for the Flyers, just saying), Newy for a 1st (Burns) and a couple players, I would've done that.
You're making it sound so nice and easy, but that fact is that it isn't. There is no way Dallas would've traded Newy or Langenbrunner for prospects/picks, which is ALL the Flyers had available. Now lots of teams want to dump player salaries, but at the time that wasn't much of a thought in comparison. Washington wasn't going to make the playoffs, and had Oates, who was leading the league in assists and in the top-5 scoring at the time of the trade. Not many teams are clearly out of the playoff race and have a LEGIT #1 center available. Roenick and Primeau went down literally one or two days before the deadline. There was no idea of when, or even if, they would be back. Washington was smart -- they knew that there really wasn't any other teams looking to move a top flight center for picks/prospects and that the Flyers were desperate. They may have gotten more then what would normally be considered fair for Oates, but keep in mind of how good Oates was then. I don't remember the exact positions, but I'm almost positive he was close to leading the league in points (top-5 if I remember correctly). Right now it would be easier to move all those picks and Oullete for a top flight center who isn't at the end of the road, but at the time value was different. The game's economics were different, which is something important to keep in mind.

Arastiroth is offline  
Old
01-24-2004, 03:15 AM
  #25
Brodeur
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 11,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
I am not overrating some prospects. Let's see Matt Foy had over 100 points in the minors, did really good at the prospect camp for the Wild, and the Wild scouts knew Foy had it in him, even though he had a rotten year in college or wherever he played. Stajan is playing for the Leafs. The goalies, all of them, are pretty strong. Ask any Dallas fan about Stephans. He doesn't get a lot of press. Harding is a possible franchise goalie with a good upside as a number 1 goalie for the Wild, including going to the Junior Championship, winning numerous awards. LeNeveau is an awesome goalie for the Coyotes. He's done extremely well for them in the AHL. Daigneault and Deslauriers are nice for the Caps and the Oilers, I can't comment on them. Lombardi is having a great season this year. Boychuk is a pretty good defensive prospect for the Avalanche.
If Foy were on another team, I somehow don't think you'd really think too much of him. I'm not saying prospects are entirely worthless, I'm just saying certain people tend to overrate prospects before they prove anything against older players. That includes somebody like WJC MVP Zach Parise.

You make it seem like I've never heard of Matt Stajan or David LeNeveau.

And Cliff Ronning? Trust me, I'm a Kings fan too, and plenty of Kings fans were less than pleased with what we got out of Ronning. Sure, we only gave up Jere Karalahti and a 4th round pick, but the old adage of 'You get what you pay for' was in full effect.

And keep in mind that Oates was leading the league in assists that year and was in the top 10 in points. Roenick and Primeau were both injured 2 nights before the deadline. If they had been out for extended periods, Clarke would have looked a bit dopey for not getting a suitable replacement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

But it's not like Clarke has ever made any other quick trades in light of an injury.

Flyers already had Roenick and Primeau. They'd be dumb to want another quality centers on top of that......oh wait, Handzus, Comrie. But you can't be successful with three good centerman.....oh wait, Arnott, Holik, Gomez. Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper. Sakic, Forsberg, Yelle. If Oates had done better in his stint, I'm sure Clarke would have given a thought of offering an extension.

Basically if you say Clarke is an idiot for paying a hefty price for Oates, then you're also calling Lacroix an idiot for giving so much for Fleury, Bourque, and Blake.

Again, having a strong farm system is crucial, but if you have the assets stockpiled, it is perfectly acceptable to tap your pool of prospects or picks in order to get the Cup. Hindsight is 20/20, I'm just saying that the price Clarke paid was typical at the time to what it cost to get a premier rental player.

Brodeur is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.