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Where does Pierre Turgeon rank?

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01-04-2008, 03:19 PM
  #1
Stephen
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Where does Pierre Turgeon rank?

Where does he rank all time? He had some gaudy stats, but even in his prime, he was maligned for not coming through or being a 'tin man.' While I don't remember him ever being mentioned among the elite, or as the go to guy on his team except in Montreal and on the Islanders, he did put up some insane point totals, and statistically is superior to guys like Mats Sundin and Mike Modano, who are held in much higher esteem. In retirement you never hear of him when you talk about this era's elite. For all the criticism he got for not being more, his playoff point totals aren't that bad either, and I'm sure his points came in handy to his teams. So where do you put him, who is comparable?

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01-04-2008, 03:36 PM
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Well, I think he was one of the better players of his day. For comparable talents of his era, I am thinking of guys like Adam Oates, and Pat Lafontaine; true #1 centers but not in the very top rank with the Gretzkys and Yzermans.

He had kind of a long tail to his career where he was a serviceable second-liner; that's what people are likely thinking about now. There might be some advantage in perception to go out on top.

But when you have 1300 points, you are a superstar.

I suppose the next question is, is he HoF?

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01-04-2008, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
he did put up some insane point totals, and statistically is superior to guys like Mats Sundin and Mike Modano
GP G A Totals
Sundin NHL Totals: 1,272 541 748 1,289
Modano NHL Totals: 1,280 519 733 1,252
Turgeon NHL Totals: 1,294 515 812 1,327

Why are Turgeons statistics superior to Sundins and Modanos? So far this season Sundin has 46p, Modano 26p and Turgeon 7p.

/Cheers...

BTW: Nothing against Turgeon just asking.

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01-04-2008, 06:19 PM
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Let me just contribute my two cents about Turgeon:

I don't care what Montreal fans want to say about him.

Why on Earth did they trade him for SHANE FREAKING CORSON!

It's one thing to trade a scorer for a scorer, but COME ON?!

I think Habs fans everywhere should realize that they let a great player get away.

THAT TRADE BLEW UP IN THEIR FACES!!

20 years from now, Montreal fans will be saying, "Why did we trade Pierre Turgeon for some big, slow guy named Corson?!"

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01-04-2008, 06:28 PM
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V-2 Schneider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Let me just contribute my two cents about Turgeon:

I don't care what Montreal fans want to say about him.

Why on Earth did they trade him for SHANE FREAKING CORSON!

It's one thing to trade a scorer for a scorer, but COME ON?!

I think Habs fans everywhere should realize that they let a great player get away.

THAT TRADE BLEW UP IN THEIR FACES!!

20 years from now, Montreal fans will be saying, "Why did we trade Pierre Turgeon for some big, slow guy named Corson?!"
Why are shrieking? Many of us knew it was a brutal deal on day one.The Habs lost a 90 pt player for an injured grinder(Keenan sandbagged Houle on Corson's health).

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Old
01-04-2008, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikFromSweden View Post
GP G A Totals
Sundin NHL Totals: 1,272 541 748 1,289
Modano NHL Totals: 1,280 519 733 1,252
Turgeon NHL Totals: 1,294 515 812 1,327

Why are Turgeons statistics superior to Sundins and Modanos?
And look at their PLAYOFF numbers:

Sundin NHL postseason totals: 35 goals, 74 points in 83 games
Modano NHL postseason totals: 53 goals, 133 points in 156 games
Turgeon NHL postseason totals: 35 goals, 97 points in 109 games

Careerwise Pierre has comparable scoring numbers in the regular season and playoffs. But, as they say, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Sundin is more of a clutch scorer. I don't have stats on it but it is obvious from having watched a lot of hockey during their entire careers. True, Turgeon played for lesser watched teams like Sabres of the late eighties, Isles and Blues of the nineties. But I recall Turgeon - and Modano to be fair - failing to score and having a rep for not getting it done at key times, not putting the team on their backs. Modano eventually won a cup though I think Joe Nieuwendyk (564 goals, 1126 points in 1257 games ought to included in this discussion) was more important in that.

Modano is more of a two-way player, having had several great defensive, Selke-quality seasons in tandem with linemate Lehtinen, remarkable chemistry for years before the lockout.

Turgeon is... a bit more of a passer? Can't think of anything else to add. Nieuwendyk was great in the face-off circle. There might be a bias against Turgeon because the other players played better in traffic. Modano and Sundin have size, Nieuwendyk determination, whereas Turgeon liked to stay away from body contact, which doesn't win him as many fans, and looks bad at times, even though in the end he produces the same kind of numbers as the others in this discussion.

The careers of Modano and Nieuwendyk have been more successful than both Sundin and Turgeon, though Sundin's longstanding stint in the hockey spotlight of Toronto has to be a factor in their relative value as a legacy.

What is Turgeon's legacy?

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01-04-2008, 07:03 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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I think it comes down to intangibles. Turgeon was viewed as soft. He put up points, but you weren't going to see him battling in the corners all that often. Offensively, he was just as good as Sundin, and probably better than Modano. But Modano was skilled as well as gritty and strong defensively. Sundin's no bruiser, but he'll take abuse to get to the net and fight through traffic. It didn't help Turgeon that he bounced from team to team either.

But overall, I think he gets a bit of a bum rap. He wasn't that bad in the playoffs, there were a couple of years where he was the only Blue's scorer who produced. He scored the OT winner in Game 7 against Phoenix in '99 as a member of the Blues, so he did have at least one big clutch moment in his career. For a guy who supposedly vanished in the playoffs, you can't really pick a single year where you could say he was a team's go-to guy who disappeared. Maybe 1997, two points in five games, but that's pretty much the only instance.

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01-04-2008, 07:04 PM
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Career game winning goal totals:

Sundin 92 (7)
Modano 84 (12)
Turgeon 86 (3)
Nieuwendyk 93 (14)

The bracketed number is in the playoffs. Turgeon only has 3. Though the difference from Sundin doesn't look to be as great as I recall. Maybe Sundin had more quality assists. lol Or maybe I have overlooked Turgeon's greatness.

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01-04-2008, 08:27 PM
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Not really sure what his legacy will be, but he was AWESOME the NYI in 1992-1993. He had I believe 58g and 74a for 132 pts. That's pretty damn good. I remember him scoring some big goals for the NYI (see ********* Dale Hunter's hit).

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01-04-2008, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by IslesFanatic View Post
Not really sure what his legacy will be, but he was AWESOME the NYI in 1992-1993. He had I believe 58g and 74a for 132 pts. That's pretty damn good. I remember him scoring some big goals for the NYI (see ********* Dale Hunter's hit).
Question:

If Turgeon had NOT scored that goal and Beaupre made the save, does that change everything?

If he didn't score, I feel that hit NEVER would have happened.

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01-04-2008, 08:47 PM
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#237 All Time

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01-04-2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Question:

If Turgeon had NOT scored that goal and Beaupre made the save, does that change everything?

If he didn't score, I feel that hit NEVER would have happened.
IMO, the hit would have never happened, no. Or at least if it had happened during a regular shift Turgwon may have been to brace himself. he was caught off guard during a goal celebration.

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01-04-2008, 11:37 PM
  #13
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9QUOTE=FredrikFromSweden;11889977]GP G A Totals
Sundin NHL Totals: 1,272 541 748 1,289
Modano NHL Totals: 1,280 519 733 1,252
Turgeon NHL Totals: 1,294 515 812 1,327

Why are Turgeons statistics superior to Sundins and Modanos? So far this season Sundin has 46p, Modano 26p and Turgeon 7p.

/Cheers...

BTW: Nothing against Turgeon just asking.[/QUOTE]

I just mean he has more points, in the most basic sense. His PPG average is 1.02, which is higher than Sundin's 1.01 or Modano's 0.98. So his average point per game is better too. Don't get me wrong, I take Sundin or Modano 100 times out of 100 over Turgeon careerwise, I just wonder why 2 of them are regarded as Hall of Famers and the other barely gets a mention.

Also kind of funny how they were the number one picks in 1987, 1988 and 1989.

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01-04-2008, 11:42 PM
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I think way too much is made out of Turgeon being "soft", and most of it comes from people who take the WJCs way too seriously and have had it out for Turgeon his entire NHL career, because he refused to get involved in a ridiculous brawl.

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01-04-2008, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Let me just contribute my two cents about Turgeon:

I don't care what Montreal fans want to say about him.

Why on Earth did they trade him for SHANE FREAKING CORSON!

It's one thing to trade a scorer for a scorer, but COME ON?!

I think Habs fans everywhere should realize that they let a great player get away.

THAT TRADE BLEW UP IN THEIR FACES!!

20 years from now, Montreal fans will be saying, "Why did we trade Pierre Turgeon for some big, slow guy named Corson?!"
One of Houle's worst trades. Turgeon might not have been the next Beliveau, Lafleur or whatever, but he was a damn good number one star, much more so than Saku Koivu was, and I think that franchise could have saved themselves a lot of heartache over the years if they hadn't dealt Turgeon.

The article on the guy is an enlightening one. He was just amazing back in the early 90s, and it's too bad Hunter had to cheap shot him like that. If Turgeon had been scoring 100+ points perennially, the league would have been better off and so would his teams.

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01-04-2008, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Let me just contribute my two cents about Turgeon:

I don't care what Montreal fans want to say about him.

Why on Earth did they trade him for SHANE FREAKING CORSON!

It's one thing to trade a scorer for a scorer, but COME ON?!

I think Habs fans everywhere should realize that they let a great player get away.

THAT TRADE BLEW UP IN THEIR FACES!!

20 years from now, Montreal fans will be saying, "Why did we trade Pierre Turgeon for some big, slow guy named Corson?!"
Because the GM was an idiot.

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01-05-2008, 01:06 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by IslesFanatic View Post
Not really sure what his legacy will be, but he was AWESOME the NYI in 1992-1993. He had I believe 58g and 74a for 132 pts. That's pretty damn good. I remember him scoring some big goals for the NYI (see ********* Dale Hunter's hit).
he was the man that year. and he never fully came back from that hit.
and dont tell me he was soft. he played the next series with aseperated shoulder. anyone who's ever had a sep. shoulder will tell you the pain is relentless.
i put him above damphousse who had good numbers too. but below modano.even with sundin THUS FAR .

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01-05-2008, 01:33 AM
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i put him above damphousse who had good numbers too.
Turgeon 515 goals, 1327 points in 1294 games
Damphousse 432 goals, 1205 points in 1378 games

Turgeon 35 goals, 97 points in 109 playoff games
Damphousse 41 goals, 104 points in 140 playoff games

Turgeon 86 GWGs (3 GWGs playoffs)
Damphousse 78 GWGs (8 GWGs playoffs)

Turgeon +139 (-6 playoffs) plus-minus
Damphousse +9 (-6 playoffs) plus-minus

Turgeon has scored at a higher clip in the regular season and playoffs, and has a monster better career +/- in regular season play. But that stat is misleading as Damphousse had defensive skill and went over the boards against many great players who dinged his +/- stats whereas Turgeon was kept way from the ice against top players, especially when protecting the lead.

I'd rather have a Damphousse than a Turgeon, but yeah, if anybody in this discussion can Turgeon be argued to be as good as, it's Damphousse.

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01-05-2008, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Career game winning goal totals:

Sundin 92 (7)
Modano 84 (12)
Turgeon 86 (3)
Nieuwendyk 93 (14)

The bracketed number is in the playoffs. Turgeon only has 3. Though the difference from Sundin doesn't look to be as great as I recall. Maybe Sundin had more quality assists. lol Or maybe I have overlooked Turgeon's greatness.

To be fair to Sundin and Turgeon, they havenīt played for sure cup contenders and do not have as many playoff games as e.g. Modano. But I agree that Turgeon stats arenīt bad at all

/Cheers

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01-05-2008, 04:01 AM
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Because the GM was an idiot.
and thankfully he got canned,he was the worst GM the Habs have ever had and possibly was one of the most incompetent all-time,despite his personnality.

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01-05-2008, 07:18 AM
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Turgeon might be like Bernie Nicholls. Not in style, but points wise. Nicholls quietly put up some great seasons in his career. Turgeon did too. But it was the way they did it. Neither one has that defining playoff, neither one ever won a Cup, none led the league in any category at any time. They both almost remind me of Jason Allison. He was that type of player when he was healthy. 0 all-star selections, no Cups, never did anything that stood out.

Personally I like Nicholls over Turgeon. But you get my point. Both guys were good point collectors and that was about it.

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01-05-2008, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikFromSweden View Post
GP G A Totals
Sundin NHL Totals: 1,272 541 748 1,289
Modano NHL Totals: 1,280 519 733 1,252
Turgeon NHL Totals: 1,294 515 812 1,327

Why are Turgeons statistics superior to Sundins and Modanos? So far this season Sundin has 46p, Modano 26p and Turgeon 7p.

/Cheers...

BTW: Nothing against Turgeon just asking.
Turgeon has 7 points this season?

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01-05-2008, 06:21 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Turgeon has 7 points this season?
Maybe in his local beer league. He's retired from the NHL as far as I know.

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01-05-2008, 08:49 PM
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My bad. Donīt trust sources you can't verify.
/Cheers

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01-05-2008, 09:52 PM
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1992-93 New York Islanders NHL 83 58 74 132

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