All that tanking does is set you up for years of not being competitive.
This team is already doing that on their own though. Nor do I think they are tanking, they are just bad. Are you advocating we don't trade away players like Sundin?
Yes, I do want to see the team do their best to try to win and don't consider trading Bell and a second round pick selling the future. Selling the future would involve getting rid of guys who are still in the organization, but they are all still around.
All that tanking does is set you up for years of not being competitive. Top 5 draft picks are deemed to be the answer but haw many times before have we seen top prospects being touted as the key to the future success of team and that not happening.
The biggest problem is that if the team knows that they aren't supposed to try to win then how do you change that mindset all of a sudden?
So I'll ask you this question.
How would you describe the difference between sending 2 first rounders for a signed Hossa and sending 4 first rounders to Washington for a signed Ovechkin?
Would either be considered building for the future?
__________________
Woodlief
using his big frame to create space and his skating ability to find open lanes to drive the net. He stands 6-3 and is a natural goal scorer with plenty of confidence.
He's a scout's dream in the way he prepares himself and plays an unselfish game, making smart decisions with the puck. With his bloodlines, he certainly understands what it will take to make it at the next level.
How would you describe the difference between sending 2 first rounders for a signed Hossa and sending 4 first rounders to Washington for a signed Ovechkin?
Would either be considered building for the future?
In tanking I'm suggesting trading over-priced underperforming players for draft picks and young players. If it means we don't finish as high in the standings and get a player such as Stamkos then so be it. By no means am I suggesting that the team should not give 100 percent on the ice every night.
Tanking requires luck, that you will indeed be worse than every team in the league, and then luck that you win the lottery.
This team is already doing that on their own though. Nor do I think they are tanking, they are just bad. Are you advocating we don't trade away players like Sundin?
It's not our decision to make, we can't trade Sundin without his approval.
They are bad in my opinion because of injuries and a coach that doesn't seem to be able to manage a hockey game.
It's not our decision to make, we can't trade Sundin without his approval
Assuming he would be amicable towards it. Trading him would certainly hurt us short term, but would be truly building for the future. Assuming it was our decision to make, do you do the deal?
Quote:
They are bad in my opinion because of injuries and a coach that doesn't seem to be able to manage a hockey game.
We already know that we disagree on this, but do you think the team has a chance of competing for the cup, or the ability to do so during the time frame that Sundin is here?
Assuming he would be amicable towards it. Trading him would certainly hurt us short term, but would be truly building for the future. Assuming it was our decision to make, do you do the deal?
We already know that we disagree on this, but do you think the team has a chance of competing for the cup, or the ability to do so during the time frame that Sundin is here?
The only guarantee from trading Sundin is that the team will be worse, what they get in return may or may not be any better than the prospects the team already has in the system. There have been plenty of big name players that have been traded at the deadline and the team doing the dumping didn't get anything out of it in the end.
The only guarantee from trading Sundin is that the team will be worse, what they get in return may or may not be any better than the prospects the team already has in the system. There have been plenty of big name players that have been traded at the deadline and the team doing the dumping didn't get anything out of it in the end.
The leafs need to take a step back to take two steps forward.
Here is what should be on the Leafs "TO DO" list for the future:
1) Use a "build from the goaltender out" mentality.
2) Clean the slate and revamp the team with youth.
3) Fill in the gaps with veterans once your satisfied with the young core you've built.
Simple method that's been used for decades.
When the time comes (Youngsters become core pieces) we'll have the money to elevate this team to the next level. MLSE has shown they are willing to spend to the cap limit in any given season. A MAJOR reason why franchises who have tanked for years, built an elite young core have never taken that next step is simply due to (recently) self imposed caps or (in the past) limited budgets.
In the case of the Leafs, tanking serves two purposes:
1) Gets the powers that be to realize that this season is lost, and that it is time to trade Sundin when his value is high.
2) Gets us closer to a top 5 draft pick (or more, depending on what we get for Sundin).
The leafs can't get much worse in the standings, but unless they fall a bit more, there will be insufficient impetus to change.
Hopefully the Leafs lose tonight but Sundin plays so well that the Ducks offer us a nice package (including Edmonton's first round pick) for him...
Agreed.
Getting three pieces (mid to low first rounder, A level prospect and a 1st-4th overall from tanking) would instantly inject the much needed youth we've been looking for all in one season.
Anyone else worried about tonight? I hope Toskala is still feeling tightness in his groin and they keep him out of the lineup a few more weeks. The last thing we need is for him to stand on his head again.
Anyone else worried about tonight? I hope Toskala is still feeling tightness in his groin and they keep him out of the lineup a few more weeks. The last thing we need is for him to stand on his head again.
Hopefully they don't risk Toskala right away and start Raycroft or Clemmensen in L.A. in the second half of the back-to-back. We need better odds of losing to those sad-sacks.
Washington is playing Colorado today and start the evening 1 point behind the Leafs ..
A Caps win and Leafs loss would see Washington leap frog the Leafs in the standings and Leafs wake up in 14th in the East tomorrow..
__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
I think you guys are mixing tanking and fire sale.
Tanking is trying to lose on purpose, aka how the Nords built the team that became the cup winning Avs. Michel Bergeron said that upper management of the team was adamant about dropping in the rankings like rocks as soon as it was clear they wouldn't make the playoffs. Nords did it by playing the backup goalie, which was usually some schmuck brought in for the purpose of being shelled after the decision of tanking had been decided and the original backup had been traded away or sent down. Like, the year they tanked to get Sundin, they played Bob Mason and Mario Brunetta in nets at the end of the year instead of dependable Gosselin and good prospect Ron Tugnutt.
The advantage of tanking is that you will build your prospects cup board quickly and in big spurts. Nords got Sakic, Leschyshyn, Kamensky, Gusarov, Sundin, Foote, Nolan, Kovalenko & Lindros in their five year tankfest. All of which played in the cup winning teams or were used to acquire assets that did. And you get to keep your team's assets if you want 'em.
The disadvantage is that, well, nobody associates with losers, especially purposefull losers.Tanking is the ABSOLUTE kick in the bawlz of the faithful. There's a stigma with it. And it takes time to build a team like this. Look at ten years from start of the tank to championship.
A Fire Sale is stripping the team of it's core for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because the team is short on cash, sometimes it's because the team has reached the end of the line with the current core, and sometimes it's because of management stupidity. A good exemple of a hockey firesale is the 2003-04 Rangers. They sent away Kovalev, Rucinsky, Leetch, Barnaby, Nedved, Simon, Malakhov, Carter, De Vries and a bunch of ham n' eggers for....Jaromir Jagr, a ton of ham n' eggers and picks.
The advantage is that usually, you can EXPLAIN the fire sale, and if it's because the team sucks, the fans usually agree and they won't mind. If it's because the team is short on cash, well the team is also probably short on support, so most fans won't care. It's also quicker than tanking, since you get MORE draft picks, more chances that good players will be drafted. If you are NOT short on cash, the freed money can be used to hire new players via free agency in the off-season....which leads us to...
What I like to call "Mid Card Hell". Finishing 7-8-9 every year and not getting any good picks or satisfaction. That is IF you fire sale and then bring in more overpaid suckers. A good fire sale is selling all your good players then dressing a bad team for a couple years.
I think you guys are mixing tanking and fire sale.
I think you guys want a fire sale.
A fire sale will never happen with this team, too many bad contracts and brutal management. Tanking accomplishes much more and is far more likely. GM and coach will inevitably be fired, won't be in any position to buy at the deadline (only sell), and will be able to draft a top 5 prospect.
