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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Double Gordie Howe hattrick ?

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Old
01-09-2008, 09:11 AM
  #26
ck26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Appreciate your effort but Howe,Orr,O'Reilly,Neely,Tocchet played in the 50's,60's,70's,80's and 90's. If I was gonna do this I'd start with games these players had 2 fights (only twice for Orr) on dropyourgloves.com and then see if I could boxscore that game. You might be right,maybe this is the 100 goal stat.
Quick search on DYG says Tocchet only had 8 two-fight games in his whole career. Finding box scores will be tricky, and I'm certainly not going to do it right now.

To be continued ...

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01-09-2008, 09:11 AM
  #27
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Sorry,Orr had 2 fights 4 times and in the Feb 25th 1971 game the Bruins beat the Canucks 8-2,have not found the box yet. On Jan 4th 1975 Orr had 2 fights in a game the Bruins beat the Stars 8-0,also no box yet.

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01-09-2008, 09:26 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
If I was gonna do this I'd start with games these players had 2 fights (only twice for Orr) on dropyourgloves.com and then see if I could boxscore that game.
That's the best way to do it. Id focus on the 70s and 80s mostly, with high-scoring players in blowout games.

I was going to clean my apartment today on my day off, but researching this looks like more fun. I'll see what I can find.

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01-09-2008, 09:29 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Quick search on DYG says Tocchet only had 8 two-fight games in his whole career. Finding box scores will be tricky, and I'm certainly not going to do it right now.

To be continued ...
Did these games occur during his days with Flyers in that case itīs easy to obtain boxscores. http://http://www.flyershistory.com/...i?Rick_Tocchet

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Old
01-09-2008, 09:39 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SniperTom View Post
Did these games occur during his days with Flyers in that case itīs easy to obtain boxscores. http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin...i?Rick_Tocchet
NICE!

4 March of '89, Rick Tocchet scored a goal in the 1st period of a 6-2 loss to the Kings. He also beat up Dean Kennedy once and later fought him to a draw. According to your site and dropthegloves.com, that was the only time Tocchet fought twice and scored a goal during either of his stints with the Flyers.

I'm going to post a thread on the main board looking for box scores. I'm incredibly curious now.

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01-09-2008, 09:42 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Sorry,Orr had 2 fights 4 times and in the Feb 25th 1971 game the Bruins beat the Canucks 8-2,have not found the box yet. On Jan 4th 1975 Orr had 2 fights in a game the Bruins beat the Stars 8-0,also no box yet.
Orr didn't do it. He had 0 pts in the Vancouver game, and he had 0 goals and 3 assists in the Minnesota game

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01-09-2008, 11:09 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Orr didn't do it. He had 0 pts in the Vancouver game, and he had 0 goals and 3 assists in the Minnesota game
Shucks! 0 points in an 8 goal game,I never would have guessed. I now say if Orr has 2 fights and zero points in an 8 goal game then it probably never happened. Another thing that comes to mind is those bench clearers that ended up with only 2 fighting majors called but multiple fights occurring. Can't count those.

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01-09-2008, 11:21 AM
  #33
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Maybe Maurice Richard did it ?
He got into lots of fights and was a scoring machine...

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01-09-2008, 11:33 AM
  #34
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Since Tocchet Philly years seems to have ruled out, my next bet is nobody did it or some surprise name, like Al Secord. But I'm out of bets.

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01-09-2008, 11:36 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Slapshooter View Post
Since Tocchet Philly years seems to have ruled out, my next bet is nobody did it or some surprise name, like Al Secord. But I'm out of bets.
Maybe Crosby will be first.

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01-09-2008, 11:49 AM
  #36
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How about Al Secord

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=4851

his best chances were between 80 and 83, scoring 40 goals and 50 goals (back to back), and over 300 pims/30 fights one year.

there isn't an authoritative resource for game summaries/boxscore to helps us out...

During the 50-goal season Secord fought twice here
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...239#Fight13239 (Hawks scored 6 too)
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...456#Fight13456 (Here but Hawks only score 3)

During the 40-goal season Secord fought twice:
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...231#Fight10231 (4-4 tie)
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...313#Fight10313 (10-0 win)
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...451#Fight10451 (6-4 win, 3 fights for Secord)
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...467#Fight10467 (Hawks only get 1)
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...548#Fight10548 (Hawks only get 3)
http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Gam...687#Fight10687 (Hawks only get 2)


Last edited by Boris Le Tigre: 01-09-2008 at 12:00 PM.
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Old
01-09-2008, 12:49 PM
  #37
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I was thinking that Secord may be the best bet as well. I can get Globe & Mail summaries through my libraries website, but I'm on dialup and it takes forever to find the page the summaries are on, let alone load it.

I checked the top fighters on DYG from `75-`79. The closest was Terry O'Reilly and Mario Tremblay each once getting 2 fights, 2 goals and 1 assist. Stan Jonathan once had 2 fights, 2 assists and 1 goal.

Secord had 2 goals but no assists in that 10-0 game.

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01-09-2008, 12:50 PM
  #38
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You have to remember that being involved in two fights gives you by definition 10 minutes in the penalty box. Even most top fowards don't play much more than 20 minutes, and it's kinda hard to produce a 4-point game while playing only about 10 minutes.

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01-09-2008, 01:40 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Maybe Maurice Richard did it ?
He got into lots of fights and was a scoring machine...
I doubt he got into 2 fights a game that often tough... Maybe I guess..

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01-09-2008, 04:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The_Human_Atombomb View Post
You have to remember that being involved in two fights gives you by definition 10 minutes in the penalty box. Even most top fowards don't play much more than 20 minutes, and it's kinda hard to produce a 4-point game while playing only about 10 minutes.
Ya but it's not like they'd be playing those entire 10 minutes taking away 10 whole minutes from their ice time. Say a top line forward plays an average of 20 minutes/game, well that's a third of a game, so they'd only be on the ice for approximately a third of the 10 minutes they're in the box which works out to 3:20. So 20-3:20 equals 16:40, getting 4 points in 16:40 of ice time would be difficult, not impossible. Plus the second fight could have been near the end of a game or something so they're not missing ice time from that one.

And as for the actual thread, I no of no one accomplishing the feat and I do doubt it's been done but there are some potential candidates.

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01-09-2008, 04:27 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownies View Post
I doubt he got into 2 fights a game that often tough... Maybe I guess..
http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Player...px?Player=3789

According to that site he only got in 10 fights in his career for the years they have data for which is not many. They give him credit for 2 2-fight games, one was the famous Bob Dill on December 17, 1944 incident where he gets credit for fighting twice, once on the ice and then again in the penalty box although they probably each would have only got 2 fighting majors. The other 2-fight game was on March 3, 1948 when he fought Bill Ezinicki twice. Getting box scores for games from the 40's would be very difficult but those would be a couple games to check for Richard.

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01-09-2008, 04:55 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
You're all talking like this is easy.


Sidney Crosby has ZERO 2 goal, 2 assist games in his career. Dany Heatley has one. Jason Spezza has two. Joe Thornton has three. Ovechkin has one.
Scoring 2 goals and 2 assists in the same game is really, really hard. Generational talents do it less than once a season ... suggesting that Chris Nilan and Rick Tocchet and Chris Simon are "likely" to have done that PLUS win two fights in the same game ... wow ... I'm not saying it CAN'T happen, but I'd bet it's happened no more than once in NHL history.

I would have never guessed that 2 goals and 2 assists is so hard to come by. Figured Crosby would have close to 10 by now.

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01-09-2008, 05:44 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Boris La Tigre View Post
Chris Nilan is another likely candidate, with 20-goal seasons

one year he fought close to 40 times and scored 20 goals... here's his fight card from that year, lots of 2-fight games there.

http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Fig...=1&Player=3347

he scored 21 goals and 16 assists that year, and spent 358 in the box... way to go Knuckles
this is way off topic but my uncle fought Chris Nilan as a kid.They grew up together.

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01-09-2008, 07:07 PM
  #44
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I officially give up for now. The only 4 point/2 fight game I could find was by Wilf Paiement, but the 4 points were all assists.

I'm sure it's been done, it's just tough to find it. Like I said earlier, it was likely in the 70s or 80s as those eras had high levels of both fighting and scoring.

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01-09-2008, 07:58 PM
  #45
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this is way off topic but my uncle fought Chris Nilan as a kid.They grew up together.
so did everyone else in the city.

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Old
01-09-2008, 08:16 PM
  #46
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The probability of a 40-goal, 60-assist player scoring 2 G, 2 A in a single game is around 1.5%. What's the probability that the player also had two fights in that same game? I'm sure it's been done, but it would be extremely rare.

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01-10-2008, 01:01 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
The probability of a 40-goal, 60-assist player scoring 2 G, 2 A in a single game is around 1.5%. What's the probability that the player also had two fights in that same game? I'm sure it's been done, but it would be extremely rare.
I like this stat because of what it isn't.

I'll throw out the hypothesis -- something that many will agree with anecdotally but would take some extensive research to prove somehow -- that the kind of player who MIGHT do this is exclusively power forwards -- Neely, Tocchet, Guerin, Lindros -- and that guys like that, who are never first-choice fighters, are only going to fight in odd situations where their team is being dominated and needs a psychological boost. If Guerin's team is losing, Guerin might start a fight to give his team a spark. But if Guerin's team is winning and the other team is looking for the same spark, they're not going to pick a fight with Guerin, they're going to pick a fight with the Raitis Ivanans or Andrew Peters or Aaron Downey on Guerin's team.

Thus, to make this work, you need for Guerin's team to be completely flat and get behind early, him to fight, the team to make a huge comeback (starring him), his line / PP squad is going to need 4 goals minimum, and then he (not his team's enforcer) is going to have to fight again later for some reason.

Dunno about you, but I would LOVE to watch that hockey game.

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01-10-2008, 04:28 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
I like this stat because of what it isn't.

I'll throw out the hypothesis -- something that many will agree with anecdotally but would take some extensive research to prove somehow -- that the kind of player who MIGHT do this is exclusively power forwards -- Neely, Tocchet, Guerin, Lindros -- and that guys like that, who are never first-choice fighters, are only going to fight in odd situations where their team is being dominated and needs a psychological boost. If Guerin's team is losing, Guerin might start a fight to give his team a spark. But if Guerin's team is winning and the other team is looking for the same spark, they're not going to pick a fight with Guerin, they're going to pick a fight with the Raitis Ivanans or Andrew Peters or Aaron Downey on Guerin's team.

Thus, to make this work, you need for Guerin's team to be completely flat and get behind early, him to fight, the team to make a huge comeback (starring him), his line / PP squad is going to need 4 goals minimum, and then he (not his team's enforcer) is going to have to fight again later for some reason.

Dunno about you, but I would LOVE to watch that hockey game.
Uhm, wouldn't it be better for Guerin to stay on the ice trying to score a goal if they're behind. And wouldn't it be better for the other team, if Guerin's team is winning, to try and pick a fight with their top scorer instead of their enforcer?

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Old
01-10-2008, 11:49 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Bet it has,then again I don't bet.
I bet I can get you to bet...

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01-10-2008, 11:51 AM
  #50
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I saw Ed Kastelic score 2 goals, 1 assist and 3 fights in a game with London of the OHL.

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