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Old
01-09-2008, 11:54 AM
  #26
Kodiak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRSinceBirth View Post
I don't get some people's reasoning. "But the fourth line does there job", "The fourth line is all that shows up", etc. No one is arguing the ability of the fourth line. But how are we expected to SCORE or win games when that line is out there? I love the fourth line, and I think it is very effective. BUT we need GOALS, and that's not coming from the fourth line. I think Jagr just wants some scoring support, hence why he probably wants the other lines to get more TOI.
But last night, what were the other options? Shanahan on one knee? Prucha (4 goals)? Dubinsky (4 goals)? Hossa (1 goal)? A couple of AHL call-ups? Who was going to be the savior from that lot?

With the lineup the way it was, we all knew that the Drury-Gomez-Jagr line would have to carry the offensive load, so they got the lion's share of the ice time. Betts's line played a lot because (1) they were doing a good job of keeping Lecavalier's line off the scoreboard, and (2) the rest of the lineup was thrown together piecemeal.

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01-09-2008, 11:59 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak View Post
But last night, what were the other options? Shanahan on one knee? Prucha (4 goals)? Dubinsky (4 goals)? Hossa (1 goal)? A couple of AHL call-ups? Who was going to be the savior from that lot?

With the lineup the way it was, we all knew that the Drury-Gomez-Jagr line would have to carry the offensive load, so they got the lion's share of the ice time. Betts's line played a lot because (1) they were doing a good job of keeping Lecavalier's line off the scoreboard, and (2) the rest of the lineup was thrown together piecemeal.
Sad but yes, I'd rather have Shanahan on one knee with the AHL'ers and the Prucha-Dubi-Prucha line out there. The 4th line cannot score, and although they can sometimes prevent the other team's 1st line from scoring, we use them too much. We already have trouble scoring. With the fourth line playing nearly an entire period every game, it leaves us 1 period to go down by 4 goals and another period to come back, only to fall short.

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01-09-2008, 12:02 PM
  #28
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last nite it was as such because the other lines had either
a) rookies
b) no perceived chemistry i.e. new line Jagz, Drury, Gomez
c) injured Shanny (protection from too many minutes)

so you go with what you know has chemistry and does well.

i agree with the need for less time on the ice for them, but it was mainly a reaction to the injuries.

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Old
01-09-2008, 12:03 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
but that line also was the ONLY reason we had three goals.

Betts line would have given us a point.
scoring 3 goals and being on ice for 5? is a loser any day of the week.

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01-09-2008, 12:35 PM
  #30
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We need more scoring throughout the lineup. We do not have a real two way center and a third line threat is non-existent. A threat of some offense from our 4th line which is being overplayed is less than non-existent. Much as I had no problem with Cullen going back to Carolina--this team misses him. He provided an offensive balance (at least when he was put on the 3rd line) that kept other teams honest. We've more or less have (with all the injuries) turned into a one line team which makes us an easy team to coach against.

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01-09-2008, 12:56 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy London Ranger View Post
Betts line would have given us a point.
scoring 3 goals and being on ice for 5? is a loser any day of the week.
how do you know that? Are you sure that they wouldn't give up 1 goal that last game if they were matched against TB's 1st line the entire time? Who are you Nostrodamus? If you are please let me know who's going to win the cup so I don't have to bother worrying about the Rags anymore. Last time I looked they have all been on the ice for more goals against us than for us. At least that's what their +/- #'s indicate. I mean if they never gave up any goals than they would at least be even.

And don't count the last goal. It was an empty netter w/ 3 seconds. Also if any other line can score a f***kin goal it would have been a tie game and we would have gotten a point anyway.

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01-09-2008, 01:01 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
how do you know that? Are you sure that they wouldn't give up 1 goal that last game if they were matched against TB's 1st line the entire time? Who are you Nostrodamus? If you are please let me know who's going to win the cup so I don't have to bother worrying about the Rags anymore. Last time I looked they have all been on the ice for more goals against us than for us. At least that's what their +/- #'s indicate. I mean if they never gave up any goals than they would at least be even.

And don't count the last goal. It was an empty netter w/ 3 seconds. Also if any other line can score a f***kin goal it would have been a tie game and we would have gotten a point anyway.
No fourth line in Hockey can remain even or better, they simply don't score, especially, if your used in a position as a shutdown line taking on the league's top players.

Hollweg-Betts-Orr do a good job with their role, +/- means absolutely NOTHING with them. We know they don't score, they're not going to, it's not what their job is, that's what the top 9 is for. Bottom line is the fourth line has been the most consistent and the best defensive line out there, they just get too many minutes, but that's because Renney sucks.

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01-09-2008, 01:09 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Ranger View Post
No fourth line in Hockey can remain even or better, they simply don't score, especially, if your used in a position as a shutdown line taking on the league's top players.

Hollweg-Betts-Orr do a good job with their role, +/- means absolutely NOTHING with them. We know they don't score, they're not going to, it's not what their job is, that's what the top 9 is for. Bottom line is the fourth line has been the most consistent and the best defensive line out there, they just get too many minutes, but that's because Renney sucks.
Bruno - this post was a response to someone who says that the 4th line should be out there and that the 1st line cost us the game b/c they were -9 all together. He said that if the Betts line was out there instead of Jagrs line we would have gotten a point in last nights game. i was just pointing out to him that you can't guarantee that. This line does let up more goals than it scores so you cant guarantee that if they played TB's 1st line last night they wouldn't let up a goal. I know the role of a 4th line. I do agree w/ what you said though. and my posts were going along w/ that. Bett's line shouldn't be playing as much as they do.

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01-09-2008, 01:23 PM
  #34
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bruno...

+/- for a line means somthing to everyone on every team. They don't score, but remember, very often they are only out there against top lines for 5-7 minutes per game and a bit minus on their part may mean they are holding other teams down a bit in terms of goals, but they're not scoring enough on their end to justify the ice time.

There were other options last night. Going with Drury on the left side didn't make much sense to me because you reduce the strength of the lines even further. Prucha has played well with Jagr in the past. Hossa has played well with Jagr in the past. Forget about 4 goals this season, disaster this, crap that. Drury too has sucked for a good portion of this season and few were saying he should be playing 10 minutes per night when he was sucking. Ditto for Straka.

Last night's team looked best when the offensive lines were out there. Renney went with what he went with because he thought it was the safest. He was obviously wrong considering he lost on home ice after losing three in the west to a team taht's struggling and whose road record is the worst in the NHL. That's pathetic for the Rangers, who still had all their defensemen in the game, many top players, and a goaltender in Lundqvist going against a rookie. Purely pathetic.

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01-09-2008, 01:35 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
+/- for a line means somthing to everyone on every team. They don't score, but remember, very often they are only out there against top lines for 5-7 minutes per game and a bit minus on their part may mean they are holding other teams down a bit in terms of goals, but they're not scoring enough on their end to justify the ice time.

There were other options last night. Going with Drury on the left side didn't make much sense to me because you reduce the strength of the lines even further. Prucha has played well with Jagr in the past. Hossa has played well with Jagr in the past. Forget about 4 goals this season, disaster this, crap that. Drury too has sucked for a good portion of this season and few were saying he should be playing 10 minutes per night when he was sucking. Ditto for Straka.

Last night's team looked best when the offensive lines were out there. Renney went with what he went with because he thought it was the safest. He was obviously wrong considering he lost on home ice after losing three in the west to a team taht's struggling and whose road record is the worst in the NHL. That's pathetic for the Rangers, who still had all their defensemen in the game, many top players, and a goaltender in Lundqvist going against a rookie. Purely pathetic.
agreed.

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01-09-2008, 01:58 PM
  #36
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Rangers fans i feel your pain because Carbonneau does the exact same thing here in Montreal.

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01-09-2008, 02:22 PM
  #37
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It's no wonder...

that the Rangers and Montreal are pretty much in a dead heat for wherever they will end up. Both have had their ups and downs.

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01-09-2008, 02:47 PM
  #38
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This entire thread is so true. The fact is that with Henrik having some trouble then we should start working to score goals. We need to limit the ice time of the fourth line and start to get to work on scoring some goals. And with time we can go backto the defensive style of game

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01-09-2008, 02:54 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountVancouver'94 View Post
"Somebody asked me why we started playing good only in the third period," Jagr said. "I said I thought we had chances in the first. We weren't on the ice that much but when we were on the ice I thought we had chances.

"No question about it, (Betts' line) did a great job. But there was not much ice time left for the other guys."


IMO, it's good to see Jags act like the vocal captain. Its good for him to speak out sometimes, and in this case, since he rarely questions Renney, he could be speaking for a majority of the locker room. I think he did a good job of skating the fine line between speaking out, and second guessing the coach.

Thoughts?
Why is he focusing on Bett's line doing a "great job" rather than he and the rest of the offense doing a crap job inlcuding a 1:23 minute 5-3 pp that mustered only 1 shot on goal? Oh btw, VL played 25:30 JJ played 22:30, what's he complaining about, 3 minutes? Betts 16:05, where's the excesive time coming from? All of this is just an attempt to shift the focus off of him, which is where it should be.
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...8/ES020629.HTM

Having said that and a constant advocate for trading Jagr, I thought, during the 1st period he played quite well. I also felt that Hossa, someone I haven't liked in the past, had also played well. Outside that, there were few brite spots to this game. It was just awful.

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01-09-2008, 02:56 PM
  #40
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"Somebody asked me why we started playing good only in the third period," Jagr said. "I said I thought we had chances in the first. We weren't on the ice that much but when we were on the ice I thought we had chances.

"No question about it, (Betts' line) did a great job. But there was not much ice time left for the other guys."
hey he right at least someone gots balls to stick up to renny ***** ass

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01-09-2008, 02:57 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Why is he focusing on Bett's line doing a "great job" rather than he and the rest of the offense doing a crap job inlcuding a 1:23 minute 5-3 pp that mustered only 1 shot on goal? Oh btw, VL played 25:30 JJ played 22:30, what's he complaining about, 3 minutes? All of this is just an attempt to shift the focus off of him, which is where it should be.

Having said that and a constant advocate for trading Jagr, I thought, during the 1st period he played quite well. I also felt that Hossa, someone I haven't liked in the past, had also played well. Outside that, there were few brite spots to this game. It was just awful.
That was because Shanny couldn't hit the ocean from a boat during that PP. rosy also passed up on at least 1 prime opportunity. That 5 on 3 was Shanny's fault not Jagrs.

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01-09-2008, 02:59 PM
  #42
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5 on 3 was Shanny's fault but also a flawed plan. I hate when our PPs sets one thing and just keeps trying for it. Shanny was allowed to miss the net 4 or 5 times..

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01-09-2008, 03:02 PM
  #43
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our game plan does suck... but on the other hand if they scored doing the same thing, we wouldnt be saying that. I don't really blame the game plan. Shanny has got to hit the NET. Even if he makes the save at least its on net and there is a chance for a rebound. There was no excuse for shanny on that PP.

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Old
01-09-2008, 03:03 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
5 on 3 was Shanny's fault but also a flawed plan. I hate when our PPs sets one thing and just keeps trying for it. Shanny was allowed to miss the net 4 or 5 times..
You said it pal! When we're constantly cycling the puck to the same player every 5 on 3 advantage, it gets old. Shanahan has a great shot, but I think we got a bit carried away last night trying to feed him the puck over and over.

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01-09-2008, 03:09 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by NYR6814 View Post
You said it pal! When we're constantly cycling the puck to the same player every 5 on 3 advantage, it gets old. Shanahan has a great shot, but I think we got a bit carried away last night trying to feed him the puck over and over.
Yep. After Shanny missed twice I was yelling for a new plan, but it never came. And, in the past it has been Jagr being fed all PP. It worked in 05/06 but not as much since.

Oilers 5 on 3 the other night looked better. They were patient, and set up the cross crease pass that worked for the pretty goal.

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01-09-2008, 03:15 PM
  #46
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viper...

the offense did muster three goals and Jagr was on the ice for all three goals. That should be enough to get a win on home ice.

But to Jagr's point - this team should not have been establishing itself defensively in the first period of a home game after a pathetic road trip. This team should've been pounding Jagr at the Lightning every chance they had in the first against a 21 year old goalie with 10 career games under his belt on the worst road team in the league which happens to also sport the worst defense in the league as measured by goals against. The Rangers should've been taking it to them offensively and tried to have gained the upper-hand against the defensively-challenged team with the inexperienced goalie in nets. Renney chose to feature Orr and Hollweg. At a minimum, skate Jagr instead of Orr on a couple shifts.

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01-09-2008, 03:36 PM
  #47
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IMO if Shanny was hurt at all, he shouldn't play - we cant spare him to get worse.
Its weird that he played - but played less minutes - therefore his line played less.

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01-09-2008, 03:46 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
+/- for a line means somthing to everyone on every team. They don't score, but remember, very often they are only out there against top lines for 5-7 minutes per game and a bit minus on their part may mean they are holding other teams down a bit in terms of goals, but they're not scoring enough on their end to justify the ice time.

There were other options last night. Going with Drury on the left side didn't make much sense to me because you reduce the strength of the lines even further. Prucha has played well with Jagr in the past. Hossa has played well with Jagr in the past. Forget about 4 goals this season, disaster this, crap that. Drury too has sucked for a good portion of this season and few were saying he should be playing 10 minutes per night when he was sucking. Ditto for Straka.

Last night's team looked best when the offensive lines were out there. Renney went with what he went with because he thought it was the safest. He was obviously wrong considering he lost on home ice after losing three in the west to a team taht's struggling and whose road record is the worst in the NHL. That's pathetic for the Rangers, who still had all their defensemen in the game, many top players, and a goaltender in Lundqvist going against a rookie. Purely pathetic.
They sure as hell are ..If you hold the best player in the game (arguably) and his linemates and everybody else off the scoreboard, you sure enough justify the ice time...They lost because the 1st line can score but is a defenive sieve and the other two can't do jack...WHich has been the norm for 3rd line players like Prucha, Hossa, Callahan all year and Dubi on the nights he decides to disappear..

Last night the team looked best in the 3rd period because it was the only period when the HBO line wasn't the only line busting it's ass and playing good hockey...The rest of the team, including the D and the goalie, was an embarassment..And when they woke up in the 3rd, the HBO line kept playing very good hockey...12 mins is too much on a night like last night but maybe the other guys could earn some ice time with effort?

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Old
01-09-2008, 03:47 PM
  #49
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Shanny's use was weird...

and I personally thought either he shouldn't play, or he should've been playing with Drury on a second line. He received four less minutes at ES last night that what Drury normally gets. If Shanny's going to play almost 9 minutes, one would think, or hope, he'd play with a centerman of a higher caliber than Moore, which would mean that Drury would've centered a second line with Shanny for nine minutes, played with Jagr on the wing for more time if that was the deal and Renney was so inclined to do (or move up Moore to play with Drury to rest Shanny). There were other ways to work last night, but I remember seeing Shanny and scratching my head.

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01-09-2008, 05:45 PM
  #50
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Watching some video from last night, and Drury did not have a great game at wing. First off he had 4 missed shots, he got in Gomez's way when they were both at the left side of the net trying to take the Jagr pass, then the mishap with Gomez in the neutral zone when Gomez was trying to poke the puck around him, missed, led to a goal against. not blaming either guy on that one, but it was just unfortunate and wouldn't happen between players more familiar playing together.

Lastly with seconds left he has in bad position for a winger, probably should have been behind the net, and Gomez should have got in front of the other player, not behind. Or Drury should have at least attack the player in the corner from behind and outman them. (hello, they have the extra guy, and they're playing 1 on 1) The puck then squirted out in between 71 & 26, Drury poked for it, but was beaten.



All of this is kind of pointless, because the empty net goal only happened because Rozsival's shot was blocked and the bolts came away with a 2 on 1. But it was poorly executed last ditch effort all around, and I can't envision any scenario in which the above play would have worked out for the Rangers, unless Jagr single handedly won the battle against the 2 TB players, and made a quick, brilliant pass to Drury in the slot.


Last edited by Carlos Ranger: 01-09-2008 at 05:52 PM.
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