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Paraphrasing Portzline: Our roster is full of pansies

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Old
01-10-2008, 12:38 PM
  #26
blahblah
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Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
C'mon, dude, if you're going to point to a fight that proves your guy is tough (even though he's being outhit by everyone on the team aside from Russell) - at least pick a fight that happened during an actual game and not a fight that happened after the horn in a home win.
Nash is a pretty physical player for the most part, especially when he has the puck. He could be more involved, however I doubt anyone is really looking to him to protect other players, much less fight. I won't get upset if he does, but I don't really want to see him go down with an injury, when other players on the team really should be doing it.

Everyone has the role.

For the most part, eveyrone on the team could take a page from the Boll book.

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01-10-2008, 12:39 PM
  #27
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Things better change quick because Brassard is gonna need some protection. He's not filled out his frame yet and I would imagine other teams like Nashville will be gunning for him to "welcome" him to the NHL. Guarantee you Tootoo is gonna pull some *****.

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01-10-2008, 12:40 PM
  #28
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Meh.

Our enforcer plays 3 mintutes a game, I'm sure Shelly would love to mix it up. OKT is out, he was pretty decent at that. We don't protect our goalie a whole lot either.

Foote is the only guy on defense that's likley going to do anything and the forwards that probably should be doing stuff like this, aren't. A guy like Chimera should be in it a lot more then what he is.

We do have some larger, more physical type players that really should be protecting our whole 3 stars. Hopefully we start to turn over this roster fairly soon.
yes I think roster change needs to happen

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01-10-2008, 12:41 PM
  #29
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I agree with this article, it's b.s. that nobody went after Backes, Boll and Shelley are useless if they aren't enforcing.

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01-10-2008, 12:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
I agree with this article, it's b.s. that nobody went after Backes, Boll and Shelley are useless if they aren't enforcing.
Considering they're both willing, I have to believe Hitch was holding them back. I have to believe that he's hoping some of the guys who've been holding back would step up to the plate.

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01-10-2008, 12:54 PM
  #31
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My question back to Portzline would be, "Was the retribution, and 17 penalty minutes incurred on Adam Foote in the Tootoo situation a "smart" play?" Because that hit and Backes hit were very similar, and I'm of the opinion that the Foote retribution, more than any other development that night in Nashville, cost us that game.
I don't necessarily think that's what he's suggesting though. I think he's saying that the CBJ don't respond in kind.

There's a difference between what Foote did, which was basically maul a guy in front of an official, and playing like somebody just punched your kid brother. This team doesn't play snarly, doesn't play with a chip on its shoulder. His point, I think, is not that they fail to fight, but that they consistently *avoid* opportunities to bring the pain legally.

Watch a guy like Phaneuf and you soon learn that there's a whole world of difference between fighting and being dirty, and playing with a nasty streak. I hate Phaneuf with a passion, but not because he's dirty like TooToo. I hate him because I know that he's going to lay out the hardest hits he possibly can and he's going to do it within the rules. That's what we lack.

Frankly, our consistent inability to protect our players and allow other teams to ride roughshodd over us is exactly why I'm not all that jacked up about Brassard coming up. True, Russell has managed to avoid injury as a much smaller player, but he plays a position that is less apt to take a big hit. I worry that teams will feel like they have carte blanche to go after him because they know we won't respond.

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01-10-2008, 12:56 PM
  #32
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I agree with this article, it's b.s. that nobody went after Backes, Boll and Shelley are useless if they aren't enforcing.
Boll is NOT an enforcer. He is an agitator that can fight fairly well and actually has a scoring touch.

That is another thing that is pissing me off. All the heavy weights around the league are avoiding Shelley and going after Boll. Boll is not a heavy weight!! Medium weight at best.

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01-10-2008, 12:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Nash is a pretty physical player for the most part, especially when he has the puck. He could be more involved, however I doubt anyone is really looking to him to protect other players, much less fight. I won't get upset if he does, but I don't really want to see him go down with an injury, when other players on the team really should be doing it.

Everyone has the role.

For the most part, eveyrone on the team could take a page from the Boll book.
I differentiated "fights" from "hits" in my post, blah. I don't want Nash fighting AT ALL, personally. What I continue to want from Nash is game time performance. I want him to finish his checks and to deliver with that big body of his, some hits the other guy is going to feel and remember. He has a huge frame and he should use it. There is far less risk of getting hurt in delivering a hit than there is in absorbing one.

Boll leads all forwards on this team by a mile when it comes to hits. I can only imagine the numbers he'll generate when he stops mistaking his reflection in the glass as an opposition player. I had a puppy who used to do that with windows

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01-10-2008, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Considering they're both willing, I have to believe Hitch was holding them back. I have to believe that he's hoping some of the guys who've been holding back would step up to the plate.
I think Jody and Boll are largely irrelevant to his point.

He specifically says that Shelley is always open for business and specifically says that's not very helpful because enforcers can be avoided. He's talking more generally about the...ennui that infests this team and the complete and utter lack of nasty streaks and controlled anger. Simply put, he's pointing out not that we don't fight but that we don't do anything to engender another team wanting to fight us.

In retrospect, this has almost nothing to do with the quoted post. But I choose to leave it quoted.

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01-10-2008, 01:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CBJ Nut View Post
Things better change quick because Brassard is gonna need some protection. He's not filled out his frame yet and I would imagine other teams like Nashville will be gunning for him to "welcome" him to the NHL. Guarantee you Tootoo is gonna pull some *****.
I think you're right, and I'm betting the NHL will turn a blind eye to the rookie abuse, too.

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01-10-2008, 01:11 PM
  #36
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I think Jody and Boll are largely irrelevant to his point.

He specifically says that Shelley is always open for business and specifically says that's not very helpful because enforcers can be avoided. He's talking more generally about the...ennui that infests this team and the complete and utter lack of nasty streaks and controlled anger. Simply put, he's pointing out not that we don't fight but that we don't do anything to engender another team wanting to fight us.

In retrospect, this has almost nothing to do with the quoted post. But I choose to leave it quoted.
Well thats a personnel issue then. Fedorov, Vyborny, Lindstrom, Brule, Novotny, Hainsey, Russell, Brassard, Zherdev these are not that "type" of player. I don't think we need a roster full of Bolls to win, nor do I think a roster full of Bolls would win as much as we are winning now. It sounds to me like Portz is a rough and tumble type of guy and likes his hockey that way, from the 1st line to the last D pairing. There are teams that play that way. Calgary comes to mind, but to be honest, I think we play as "tough" as the average team in the new NHL. I'm a proponent of a balanced roster. Maybe we need a couple more "rough" types to achieve proper balance, but I'm more interested in first upgrading in the skill position dept(PP QB, 1st line C).

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01-10-2008, 01:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Well thats a personnel issue then. Fedorov, Vyborny, Lindstrom, Brule, Novotny, Hainsey, Russell, Brassard, Zherdev these are not that "type" of player. I don't think we need a roster full of Bolls to win, nor do I think a roster full of Bolls would win as much as we are winning now. It sounds to me like Portz is a rough and tumble type of guy and likes his hockey that way, from the 1st line to the last D pairing. There are teams that play that way. Calgary comes to mind, but to be honest, I think we play as "tough" as the average team in the new NHL. I'm a proponent of a balanced roster. Maybe we need a couple more "rough" types to achieve proper balance, but I'm more interested in first upgrading in the skill position dept(PP QB, 1st line C).
I think it doesn't have so much to do with player "types" as with player "temperaments." Novotny can get nasty, Brule is certainly nasty, and I've seen Fedorov lay some super-duper-double-uber nasty hits (one on Willie Mitchell from which the Willie has never really fully recovered.)

When we outhit a team we generally beat them. Hitting is sign of being engaged, being interested, being committed and invested in obtaining a specific outcome from the game - 2 pts.

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01-10-2008, 01:25 PM
  #38
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There are two issues Aaron attempted to expose imo, standing up for abused teammates and general toughness which is expressed by solid hits consistently.

Boll does both, we don't need a team full enforcers but we do need the average player to hit people, especially on the boards. Hitchcock has mentioned "finish your checks" if I'm not mistaken, our players don't listen to him and skate away to often...

Bottomline, the team is soft, if Iginla can hit people why can't Nash? Take a look at Calgary since they beat us. Iginla is a leader and has sparked that team.

You will see a different team for a few games as far as toughness goes but the true indicator of change is how long it lasts.

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01-10-2008, 01:26 PM
  #39
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I differentiated "fights" from "hits" in my post, blah. I don't want Nash fighting AT ALL, personally. What I continue to want from Nash is game time performance. I want him to finish his checks and to deliver with that big body of his, some hits the other guy is going to feel and remember. He has a huge frame and he should use it. There is far less risk of getting hurt in delivering a hit than there is in absorbing one.

Boll leads all forwards on this team by a mile when it comes to hits. I can only imagine the numbers he'll generate when he stops mistaking his reflection in the glass as an opposition player. I had a puppy who used to do that with windows
Sure Nash could be more physical on the forecheck. I know we all love the big hits, I've seen Nash deliver quite a few. He could do more, but if I was going to point out someone for lack of physical play, Nash wouldn't be my first choice.

The last month or so he hasn't been as stong with the puck, I would like to see him get that back before worrying about how many punishing hits he delivers a game. I would rather him spend his energy dragging guys with him to the net.

Boll's young, he'll become more selective. I could truely care less about the stat "hits". It's an interesting stat, but fairly meaningless in the scheme of things. You can be an effective checker without hitting. Some people it's a big part of their game, others not so much. Doesn't make them a wimp.

He's been soft for Nash. However, I wish some of the guys on the team got up to his level of softness.

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01-10-2008, 01:32 PM
  #40
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There are two issues Aaron attempted to expose imo, standing up for abused teammates and general toughness which is expressed by solid hits consistently.

Boll does both, we don't need a team full enforcers but we do need the average player to hit people, especially on the boards. Hitchcock has mentioned "finish your checks" if I'm not mistaken, our players don't listen to him and skate away to often...

Bottomline, the team is soft, if Iginla can hit people why can't Nash? Take a look at Calgary since they beat us. Iginla is a leader and has sparked that team.

You will see a different team for a few games as far as toughness goes but the true indicator of change is how long it lasts.
Ding! Ding! Ding! yes. Like a "team identity" or a "strut" ... playing a physical and punishing game is HABIT - it needs to be learned and a conscious decision must be made each and every game to play that way until it comes naturally to the player. Physical play by one player inspires the same kind of play in another ... it builds and perpetuates itself and it is just one more area/aspect of the game that must be demonstrated and continually executed by leaders on the ice.

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01-10-2008, 01:34 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by IAMthespoon View Post
I think Jody and Boll are largely irrelevant to his point.

He specifically says that Shelley is always open for business and specifically says that's not very helpful because enforcers can be avoided. He's talking more generally about the...ennui that infests this team and the complete and utter lack of nasty streaks and controlled anger. Simply put, he's pointing out not that we don't fight but that we don't do anything to engender another team wanting to fight us.

In retrospect, this has almost nothing to do with the quoted post. But I choose to leave it quoted.
Good lordy you used ennui. I thought only Pluck was allowed to use words like that.

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01-10-2008, 01:37 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Sure Nash could be more physical on the forecheck. I know we all love the big hits, I've seen Nash deliver quite a few. He could do more, but if I was going to point out someone for lack of physical play, Nash wouldn't be my first choice.

The last month or so he hasn't been as stong with the puck, I would like to see him get that back before worrying about how many punishing hits he delivers a game. I would rather him spend his energy dragging guys with him to the net.

Boll's young, he'll become more selective. I could truely care less about the stat "hits". It's an interesting stat, but fairly meaningless in the scheme of things. You can be an effective checker without hitting. Some people it's a big part of their game, others not so much. Doesn't make them a wimp.

He's been soft for Nash. However, I wish some of the guys on the team got up to his level of softness.
again, blahblah, i differentiated "finishing a check" versus "delivering a hit." I get that you don't value "hits" ... that's fine, but I do. And I do especially when a guy isn't scoring and it becomes necessary for an elite player, okay ALL players, to find other ways to contribute and impose their will out there on the ice.

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01-10-2008, 01:40 PM
  #43
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Good lordy you used ennui. I thought only Pluck was allowed to use words like that.
Both the spoon and the femspoon amuse me. I know spoon's vocab is like totally mostly way for sure bigger than mine and I suspect the femspoon's vocab is too.

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01-10-2008, 01:41 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Good lordy you used ennui. I thought only Pluck was allowed to use words like that.
Seriously. I had to look it up, and that doesn't happen to me often. First time on this board in any case.

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01-10-2008, 01:51 PM
  #45
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again, blahblah, i differentiated "finishing a check" versus "delivering a hit." I get that you don't value "hits" ... that's fine, but I do. And I do especially when a guy isn't scoring and it becomes necessary for an elite player, okay ALL players, to find other ways to contribute and impose their will out there on the ice.
Pluck I think your splitting hairs here. I mentioned both in my post, and I knew you mentioned both. That really had nothing to do with my point. I see Nash "finish" a few checks a game. Maybe not as many as you want, but it's not devoid from his game.

I would like to see any of the other Jackets take the puck to the net like Nash does and see how long they last. Most of them couldn't do it, they would get knocked down or off the puck in a second. I doubt any of them could keep it going for a period, never mind a game. That's how he scores a lot of his goals.

I don't really see you acknowledge that part of his physical play and how demanding it is.

I think there is a place and need for many types of players. There are a great number of elite players that will never hit a lot. Doesn't make them useless or soft.

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01-10-2008, 02:00 PM
  #46
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Cue the Joe McGrath line from the end of Slap Shot ... "Bunch a' p-----"

I'll lend my somewhat uneducated opinion on all this. I think it all boils down to the fact the team as a whole does not have the size, endurance and strength (especially with a number of nagging injuries) to play the type of hockey where you are finishing every check and playing with the intensity required to overcome lack of skill in some (most) areas - every single game. I also think there is maybe a subconscious thought in the back of their minds that if they go for that hit or retaliatory blow they will give up a "stupid" penalty; something they also can't be doing night after night to win games.

I see Klesla and Ole-Kristian Tollefsen as the heavy hitters. Hejda and Foote have the same size and should be able to hit. Chimera should be hitting more (can't score, hit). Boll I see as more of a "pest" player like Tyler Wright. Shelly is still the fighter.

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01-10-2008, 02:09 PM
  #47
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Pluck I think your splitting hairs here. I mentioned both in my post, and I knew you mentioned both. That really had nothing to do with my point. I see Nash "finish" a few checks a game. Maybe not as many as you want, but it's not devoid from his game.
I'm only parsing my speech so carefully because you have a tendency to become entangled in semantics and lose sight of the point. If you're tired of the fight/check/hit talk I'll stop.

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I would like to see any of the other Jackets take the puck to the net like Nash does and see how long they last. Most of them couldn't do it, they would get knocked down or off the puck in a second. I doubt any of them could keep it going for a period, never mind a game. That's how he scores a lot of his goals.
Correct. There are few bodies on our team that are physically imposing enough to play a power forward game. Nash is one, Chimera is another. Unfortunately, neither of those players is having much( if any) success with their game at the moment.

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I don't really see you acknowledge that part of his physical play and how demanding it is.
It's demanding way to play the game. The problem is that Nash has been unable to maintain his pace from the early season and he hasn't found any useful help from his team mates to help him regain that form. It's a problem and hopefully it's being dealt with.

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I think there is a place and need for many types of players. There are a great number of elite players that will never hit a lot. Doesn't make them useless or soft.
If Nash were scoring goals and his team was winning, we wouldn't be discussing any of this. No one on this team is perfect and no one on this team plays a perfect game. Every guy is different and it just so happens that one area Nash could contribute far, far more in is in playing with energy and grit. It's particularly important he do this on the road against good opposition defense where his goals come fewer and farther between.

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01-10-2008, 02:19 PM
  #48
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Pluck I think your splitting hairs here. I mentioned both in my post, and I knew you mentioned both. That really had nothing to do with my point. I see Nash "finish" a few checks a game. Maybe not as many as you want, but it's not devoid from his game.

I would like to see any of the other Jackets take the puck to the net like Nash does and see how long they last. Most of them couldn't do it, they would get knocked down or off the puck in a second. I doubt any of them could keep it going for a period, never mind a game. That's how he scores a lot of his goals.
I feel Nash takes plenty of physical abuse en route to the net every night. I don't want him banging himself up anymore finishing checks at center ice. The man is focused on driving the net, thats his primary objective and thats where we need him to be.

I think you guys clammering for more hitting, have to realize that skill players can't throw their bodies around like that and put in the 20 minutes a game you need them too. There are smart hits, hits that force a D man to rush a pass, hits that move a player off the puck, most smart hits don't involve jacking a guy off his feet and over the boards. Fedorov has alot of subtle hits and stick checks that do more good than your average Boll hit that involves him and glass because the other player side stepped him like a matador toying with a raging bull...........hmm, new nickname for Jared maybe....Raging Boll.

Anyways, I think too often we lable players as lazy if they aren't jumping off their skates everytime they lineup an opposing player that just released the puck. How often is Jared Boll the first forward back? Hitch says he loves him(and so do I) but there has to be a reason he continues to play only 10 minutes a game while our "soft" players are out there 15+ minutes.

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01-10-2008, 02:29 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
I think you guys clammering for more hitting, have to realize that skill players can't throw their bodies around like that and put in the 20 minutes a game you need them too. There are smart hits, hits that force a D man to rush a pass, hits that move a player off the puck, most smart hits don't involve jacking a guy off his feet and over the boards.
And now we've come full circle. I think the main problem that Portzline vocalized, and that's resonating so well today, is that we're not seeing what I've quoted here enough. Our players seem to take a lot more of these "smart hits" than they deliver.

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01-10-2008, 02:44 PM
  #50
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We all like rough hockey...
But should we expect it from a team that has as many INJURIES as we have?

How many more CONCUSSIONS and INJURIES can this line up sustain ...and still have a shot at the playoffs? We don't have the depth or talent to play rough. We have to play smarter.

If this team were scoring a little more, we wouldn't even be talking about this subject.

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