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Old
01-12-2008, 06:45 AM
  #26
PerryTurnbullfan
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Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
Looks like this will be JD's one great mistake this year. Blues need a veteran backup. Toivonen is not the right guy for the job.

He needs at least another full seaon in the AHL. The skill is there but his positioning is terrible and he clearly lacks confidence, just like the Boston fans are telling us.

JD has to fix this now. He needs to find a veteran backup and get Toivonen down to Peoria pronto.

The Blues can't live with this goalie setup because the schedule is going to be brutal very soon. They need a backup goalie.
I'm not blaming Toivonen for a lackluster defensive effort. The Blues didn't show up. Columbus did. I don't recall a game recently with so many scoring chances for the other team. Perhaps some veteran players need to spend some time in the AHL working on their postitioning. They didn't do it last night. I don't think who the goalie was would have mattered a whole lot last night.

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01-12-2008, 08:29 AM
  #27
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You're right the Blues didn't show up, but that is a game Manny could have, and in all reality probably WOULD HAVE, stolen. The first Zherdev goal was absolutely terrible.

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01-12-2008, 09:01 AM
  #28
execwrite
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I'm not blaming Toivonen for a lackluster defensive effort. The Blues didn't show up. Columbus did. I don't recall a game recently with so many scoring chances for the other team. Perhaps some veteran players need to spend some time in the AHL working on their postitioning. They didn't do it last night. I don't think who the goalie was would have mattered a whole lot last night.

It's not the first time Hannu has struggled. He is not an NHL goalie right now. Maybe in a few years.

You can't make a few great saves early and then let easy goals in later. You've got to stop ALL the easy shots and make a few great saves also.

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01-12-2008, 09:05 AM
  #29
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Oh please.

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01-12-2008, 09:09 AM
  #30
execwrite
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Originally Posted by Twist And Shout View Post
Oh please.

Did you mean - Hannu is an excellent goalie who will do a great job as the backup this year?

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01-12-2008, 10:57 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
Looks like this will be JD's one great mistake this year. Blues need a veteran backup. Toivonen is not the right guy for the job.

He needs at least another full seaon in the AHL. The skill is there but his positioning is terrible and he clearly lacks confidence, just like the Boston fans are telling us.

JD has to fix this now. He needs to find a veteran backup and get Toivonen down to Peoria pronto.
The Blues can't live with this goalie setup because the schedule is going to be brutal very soon. They need a backup goalie.
This "crap" is crap. If Toivonen is having confidence problems, then sending him down to Peoria will be just shy of devastating for his confidence. We have seen him shine in the nets. And, at times, we have seen him do not so well.

It seems to me that when our defense does not "show up" Toivonen displays an attitude of "Forget this. If they're not going to play well, then I won't either." And I think that is more a question of maturity than confidence.

Some can validly argue that this attitude would be a good enough reason to send him down, but that would be a big mistake, imo. JD and Wamsley need to try to get Toivonen's head straight so that when our defense has a bad night, he doesn't display the apathy that lets in weak goals.

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01-12-2008, 11:15 AM
  #32
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Toivonen = Bacashihua

When they are both hot they are just about unbeatable. Unfortunately they're hot streaks are few and far between. Both have/had huge "upside" but neither one has gotten there.

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01-12-2008, 11:17 AM
  #33
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Get over it Blues fans. Toivonen might have let in a couple of questionable goals, but it was him and him alone that kept your butts in the game in the first period. He absolutely robbed several Jackets on odd man rushes. Jackets fans were upset because that period could have ended 4-1 Jackets. Can you say with absolute certainty that Legace would have made some of those saves? I think not. Watching your teams performance from the bench, he probably was relieved he wasn't in the game. I don't even really think the Blues played all that bad, actually. I think it was a matter of the Jackets playing better on that night.

Of course, they are the Jackets, so no opposing fans will give them any credit.

I love the fact that the CBJ - Blues games are really spirited, and fun to watch. Hopefully both our teams will continue to improve so that at some point we can be fighting the Deadwings on a higher lvl.

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01-12-2008, 12:58 PM
  #34
execwrite
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Originally Posted by ChicagoBlues View Post
This "crap" is crap. If Toivonen is having confidence problems, then sending him down to Peoria will be just shy of devastating for his confidence. We have seen him shine in the nets. And, at times, we have seen him do not so well.

It seems to me that when our defense does not "show up" Toivonen displays an attitude of "Forget this. If they're not going to play well, then I won't either." And I think that is more a question of maturity than confidence.

Some can validly argue that this attitude would be a good enough reason to send him down, but that would be a big mistake, imo. JD and Wamsley need to try to get Toivonen's head straight so that when our defense has a bad night, he doesn't display the apathy that lets in weak goals.
An NHL team fighting for a playoff spot isn't the best place for a goalie to learn how to play angles properly. Toivonen is making mistakes that 16 year old goalies in junior hockey don't make. He did the same things in Boston last year. This isn't a unique situation for him and it isn't just one bad nite.

He needs to play in the AHL right now, not the big leagues. I bet that's exactly what JD would say if he could be honest about it.

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01-12-2008, 01:14 PM
  #35
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Just send Toivy down to Peoria and have Walmsley work intensely with him. Send Schwarz up to play backup. He's been adequate in the NHL backup role before, and should also be now.

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01-12-2008, 03:33 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Dr. Fire View Post
Get over it Blues fans. Toivonen might have let in a couple of questionable goals, but it was him and him alone that kept your butts in the game in the first period. He absolutely robbed several Jackets on odd man rushes. Jackets fans were upset because that period could have ended 4-1 Jackets.
The first goal (Nash's shot from the top of the circle) was at least questionable; the fourth and fifth goals were inexcusable. You're right, though - Hannu robbed a couple Jackets on two partial breakaways with glove saves early in the first. But the softies in the third were particularly frustrating because we were playing our 3rd game in 4 nights, had been hemmed in our own zone badly for long stretches of the game, yet were just six minutes away from securing a point.

All things considered, I think Toivonen's generally done a solid job as backup and has been getting some undeserved flak, but last night was one of his few truly poor outings as a Blue.

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01-12-2008, 03:56 PM
  #37
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All I have to say is this: when a team gives up 7 odd man rushes in the first 24 minutes of play(I stopped counting after that), AND fails to score on TWO 5 on 3s, each of which were well over a minute long, then that team should lose the game, regardless of goalie play.

It's one thing if the guys in front of Toivonen played well but Toivonen didn't. It's quite another when the entire team ***** the bed, and this Blues team seems to do it fairly regularly when Toivonen's in net.

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01-12-2008, 04:21 PM
  #38
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All I have to say is this: when a team gives up 7 odd man rushes in the first 24 minutes of play(I stopped counting after that), AND fails to score on TWO 5 on 3s, each of which were well over a minute long, then that team should lose the game, regardless of goalie play.

It's one thing if the guys in front of Toivonen played well but Toivonen didn't. It's quite another when the entire team ***** the bed, and this Blues team seems to do it fairly regularly when Toivonen's in net.
Thank you for some sanity. Hannu gets nowhere near the goal support Manny gets(last time I checked). These people clamoring for CuJo are thinking with their heart and not their mind. If Hannu gets sent down and Marek comes up, fine. But to say he's "crap" and makes mistakes "16 year olds" make is just a knee-jerk reaction. There are a couple teams who have serious goalie problems and that's where Curtis will go. If for some strange reason he wears the Note, it'll be because of a horrible wave of injuries, which none of us want.

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01-12-2008, 05:32 PM
  #39
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Clearly better than Cash...

Ummm, I know the stats don't tell the whole story, but I think they would beg to make things a little less clear. Also, you could get the opinion of Bruins fans who have watched Hannu, or just watch both play for a few stretches.

As far as Cash getting his fair shot, I disagree. Before we traded him, others on here wanted Cash to get more of a look given how well he could play at times. As soon as we trade him away...people like you choose to rewrite history
But we have ony seen Toivy in a limited number of games. Cash never stepped up to play at his fullest potential.

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01-12-2008, 06:38 PM
  #40
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But we have ony seen Toivy in a limited number of games. Cash never stepped up to play at his fullest potential.
Exactly!

Cash got more than a fair chance here. I'm willing to let Toivy get his....

For those who will bring up my Turek comparison from last night....that was heat of the moment frustration, and I've backed off that comment.

It isn't the end of the world to lose one game...we aren't winning the Cup this year anyhow, so where/when/how we eventually lose isn't that important as long as it still builds for the near future when this team will truly be at that 'next level'.

Hannu is 23, he's got time.

And, furthermore, I don't see the need for a veteran backup on this team. Especially not a way-way-way past their prime veteran(Joseph). If we could get someone like Ty Conklin without overpaying(good luck, he's 9-0-0) that'd be nice, but it won't make or break the season.

Unless(god I hope not..) Manny gets injured. Then we're fudged.

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01-13-2008, 02:00 AM
  #41
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I agree he is 23 and not to mention most games he has played have been the second of back to back games. He did stop 37 shots if my memory serves me correctly, that is quite a few considering Manny faces about half of that in most games. I do believe he will be a solid goaltender it will just take time. Most NHL goalies don't peak till there 30 and some later than that. I just hope his confidence will return this is the second big loss this season.

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01-13-2008, 05:23 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by woodr0w View Post
The first goal (Nash's shot from the top of the circle) was at least questionable; the fourth and fifth goals were inexcusable. You're right, though - Hannu robbed a couple Jackets on two partial breakaways with glove saves early in the first. But the softies in the third were particularly frustrating because we were playing our 3rd game in 4 nights, had been hemmed in our own zone badly for long stretches of the game, yet were just six minutes away from securing a point.

All things considered, I think Toivonen's generally done a solid job as backup and has been getting some undeserved flak, but last night was one of his few truly poor outings as a Blue.
Toivonen mentioned in the paper that the 5th shot was deflected by the defender. He felt he still should have saved it, but the most difficult shot to stop is a deflection. It would help if McKee would play defense instead of goalie sometimes. If the goalie is having trouble seeing the puck because your screening him, then you deflect the shot....Makes it tough guys.

Toivonen had a bad game. He looked like a playoff version of CuJo. I watched the highlights again. Checker brother, I'm sorry, but Brewer has played very well lately...This game he played like a pylon. The break ins in the first had a #4 in a bunch of highlights. He wasn't alone either. Not one defender played well though. Walker will find the pine next game.

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01-13-2008, 07:02 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Dr. Fire View Post
Get over it Blues fans. Toivonen might have let in a couple of questionable goals, but it was him and him alone that kept your butts in the game in the first period. He absolutely robbed several Jackets on odd man rushes. Jackets fans were upset because that period could have ended 4-1 Jackets. Can you say with absolute certainty that Legace would have made some of those saves? I think not. Watching your teams performance from the bench, he probably was relieved he wasn't in the game. I don't even really think the Blues played all that bad, actually. I think it was a matter of the Jackets playing better on that night.

Of course, they are the Jackets, so no opposing fans will give them any credit.

I love the fact that the CBJ - Blues games are really spirited, and fun to watch. Hopefully both our teams will continue to improve so that at some point we can be fighting the Deadwings on a higher lvl.
Well said. Give the Jackets some credit. Zherdev, Nash, an ancient Fedorov, They outplayed us and have some talent. Zherdev hasn't even touched his potential. Where's the respect when a stud walks around our D like a Christmas tree? More than once, I should add. If you can't agree with the 4-1 comment, then you really need to watch the game again. Just read our GDT thread during the game.

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01-13-2008, 01:42 PM
  #44
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I'd like to see him get a start at the front end of back to back games.

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01-13-2008, 01:57 PM
  #45
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I'd like to see him get a start at the front end of back to back games.
This makes more sense than the reverse.

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01-13-2008, 02:17 PM
  #46
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I'd like to see him get a start at the front end of back to back games.
That is an excellent idea. Wouldn't be surprised to see that tried the next go 'round.

At least I hope so...in theory the team would play stronger in front of the weaker goalie and then hopefully Manny can steal the 2nd game. Thumbs Up, I say.

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01-13-2008, 04:06 PM
  #47
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I'd like to see him get a start at the front end of back to back games.
I would imagine the reason why they don't is because if Toivy gets shelled or injured and they have to put Manny in, it defeats the purpose but they could always just call Schwarz up to back up Manny the next night, as long as Peoria isn't playing either of those 2 nights (which I imagine is a rarity)

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01-13-2008, 04:46 PM
  #48
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Looking at the schedule, the Blues have 10 back-to-back games in the 40 games left. That's a lot.

They need to figure out the second goalie issue quick.

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01-15-2008, 06:42 PM
  #49
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Just send Toivy down to Peoria and have Walmsley work intensely with him. Send Schwarz up to play backup. He's been adequate in the NHL backup role before, and should also be now.


Ladies and Gentleman, we have a psychic in our midst.

http://blues.nhl.com/team/app/?servi...ticleid=349925

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St. Louis Blues
Jan 14, 2008, 12:30 PM EST

Schwarz
Blues Recall Goaltender Marek Schwarz

ST. LOUIS – St. Louis Blues President John Davidson announced today the club has assigned goaltender Hannu Toivonen to the Blues’ American Hockey League affiliate, the Peoria Rivermen. In addition, the team has recalled goaltender Marek Schwarz from the Rivermen.

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01-15-2008, 10:57 PM
  #50
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Toivy is nothing more than a young goaltender. As with all young netminders he's going to make spectacular saves followed by allowing innocent shots to go right through his five hole. It happens with about 99% of all young goalies, you always just hope it happens when your up by a few instead of tied as was the Blues case. My suggestion is though, don't ever play him in Columbus again. Poor fella has got to hate it there. 0-3, 12 goals allowed, and his team has been shutout twice.

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