HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > St. Louis Blues
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

JD's one big mistake - backup goalie

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-12-2008, 11:47 PM
  #26
trublu16
Registered User
 
trublu16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 762
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiodos View Post
Another one of these threads?

Slumping forward/defenseman = Trade ASAP
Losing streaks = rebuild again
and just now: Goalie has 1 or more bad starts in a row = not NHL quality/ get CuJo


The team is playing really good hockey, and most of the problems are solving themselves. Patience worked earlier this season, and will work by the end of the season. Just sit back, and relax. If this is JD's only "mistake" then we're in good hands.
Not sure if you are looking at the stats from the Dec. 4th game thru Friday. But they are all pretty much horrible.

GS MIN W / L / OTL EGA GA GAA SA SV SV%
===============================================
Jan 11 COB L 4-6 1 60 1-3-3 0 6 6.01 37 31 .838
Jan 2 EDM L 2-3 0 45 1-2-3 0 3 4.03 21 18 .857
Dec 29 DAL L 4-5 1 64 1-2-2 0 4 3.75 26 22 .846
Dec 26 DET L 0-5 0 32 1-2-1 0 1 1.86 11 10 .909
Dec 11 EDM L 4-5 1 65 1-2-1 0 4 3.69 29 25 .862
Dec 9 COL L 5-9 1 49 1-2-0 0 8 9.79 25 17 .680
Dec 7 EDM W 4-3 1 60 1 -1-0 0 3 3.01 28 25 .893
Dec 4 CGY L 1-3 1 59 0-1-0 0 3 3.06 37 34 .919

So overall in this short period of time, Hannu is 1-3-3 with giving up 32 goals in that period of time. That is horrible, just simply pathetic. Call it what you want, but it was Hannu who let the goals in and not our defense. I don't see Manny letting in crappy weak goals on a regular basis.

But this is something that we all should of expected. Hannu was playing in Boston the same way. It is just that we have a better defense than Boston, as to why it has taken longer time to figure it out that he does not belong in the NHL.

We need to find another goalie that is similar to Sanford. A guy who can come in and play 20 games, and be effective even thou that he hasn't played in 10-15 days. But I know that is what everyone is looking for in a NHL-caliber back-up netminder.

Cujo is NOT the answer for anything. If you want a retread former #1 netminder, wait for Belfour season is over in Europe and then sign him. At least Eddy would be able to stand on his skate longer that 2 second be fore starts flopping around like a fish, ala Cujo!!

trublu16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 04:42 AM
  #27
WalterSobchak
Blues Trololol
 
WalterSobchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Gutter Alley
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by trublu16 View Post
Not sure if you are looking at the stats from the Dec. 4th game thru Friday. But they are all pretty much horrible.

GS MIN W / L / OTL EGA GA GAA SA SV SV%
===============================================
Jan 11 COB L 4-6 1 60 1-3-3 0 6 6.01 37 31 .838
Jan 2 EDM L 2-3 0 45 1-2-3 0 3 4.03 21 18 .857
Dec 29 DAL L 4-5 1 64 1-2-2 0 4 3.75 26 22 .846
Dec 26 DET L 0-5 0 32 1-2-1 0 1 1.86 11 10 .909
Dec 11 EDM L 4-5 1 65 1-2-1 0 4 3.69 29 25 .862
Dec 9 COL L 5-9 1 49 1-2-0 0 8 9.79 25 17 .680
Dec 7 EDM W 4-3 1 60 1 -1-0 0 3 3.01 28 25 .893
Dec 4 CGY L 1-3 1 59 0-1-0 0 3 3.06 37 34 .919

So overall in this short period of time, Hannu is 1-3-3 with giving up 32 goals in that period of time. That is horrible, just simply pathetic. Call it what you want, but it was Hannu who let the goals in and not our defense. I don't see Manny letting in crappy weak goals on a regular basis.

But this is something that we all should of expected. Hannu was playing in Boston the same way. It is just that we have a better defense than Boston, as to why it has taken longer time to figure it out that he does not belong in the NHL.

We need to find another goalie that is similar to Sanford. A guy who can come in and play 20 games, and be effective even thou that he hasn't played in 10-15 days. But I know that is what everyone is looking for in a NHL-caliber back-up netminder.

Cujo is NOT the answer for anything. If you want a retread former #1 netminder, wait for Belfour season is over in Europe and then sign him. At least Eddy would be able to stand on his skate longer that 2 second be fore starts flopping around like a fish, ala Cujo!!
our defence had nothing to do with those goals? wow.

WalterSobchak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 10:11 AM
  #28
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
our defence had nothing to do with those goals? wow.

So you believe that when Legace plays the defense is great in front of him and by some amazing coincidence everytime Toivonen plays the defense is terrible?

Conspiracy theory? Did Toivo forget to bring the donuts to practice and now everyone hates him?

Wake up people. Toivo is not the guy. The numbers don't lie.

execwrite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 12:42 PM
  #29
BluesDarb
Registered User
 
BluesDarb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
So you believe that when Legace plays the defense is great in front of him and by some amazing coincidence everytime Toivonen plays the defense is terrible?

Conspiracy theory? Did Toivo forget to bring the donuts to practice and now everyone hates him?

Wake up people. Toivo is not the guy. The numbers don't lie.
Mmkay, turn in your hockey credentials now...

Hockey fans above all others should understand that the numbers DO LIE.

You really think that Curtis Joseph at what, 50, is better than Toivonen? If so then I think you're missing a chromosome.

I haven't seen a realistic proposal from you about your choice for the 'ideal' backup...sending Hannu down is not realistic, he would NOT clear waivers.

So let's hear it...if you don't have a legit argument here then you're just trolling to stir the proverbial s-word.

BluesDarb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 12:54 PM
  #30
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,466
vCash: 500
Apparently I am also missing a chromosome...

At least right now, as a back-up, Cujo > Toivonen.

And Toivonen sails through waivers.

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 01:00 PM
  #31
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesDarb View Post
Mmkay, turn in your hockey credentials now...

Hockey fans above all others should understand that the numbers DO LIE.

You really think that Curtis Joseph at what, 50, is better than Toivonen? If so then I think you're missing a chromosome.

I haven't seen a realistic proposal from you about your choice for the 'ideal' backup...sending Hannu down is not realistic, he would NOT clear waivers.

So let's hear it...if you don't have a legit argument here then you're just trolling to stir the proverbial s-word.
I didn't know I was debating a hockey fan with a PhD in Genetics. I will be more careful what I say.

For your information, I have already concluded a trade with Montreal fan over in their forum. Yann Danis for a third round pick from the Blues. Just waiting for league approval. (But I still prefer Joseph).

Problem solved.

execwrite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 01:00 PM
  #32
Robb_K
Registered User
 
Robb_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NordHolandNethrlands
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,587
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post

At least right now, as a back-up, Cujo > Toivonen.

And Toivonen sails through waivers.
I thought Toivonen wouldn't be subject to waivers, as he's only 23 years old and is only in his 3rd professional season. If he IS subject to waivers, what is the threshold for player age, and for number of pro years or NHL/pro games played?

Robb_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 01:14 PM
  #33
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
I thought Toivonen wouldn't be subject to waivers, as he's only 23 years old and is only in his 3rd professional season. If he IS subject to waivers, what is the threshold for player age, and for number of pro years or NHL/pro games played?
I have no idea if he needs to go through or not, I just know he'd not have any problems clearing them if he needed to.

EDIT x2: He's played 52 NHL games, so it looks like he will have to based on this from IB's site

Quote:
Hannu Toivonen signed an entry-level contract in 2003 at the age of 19, meaning he was exempt from waivers for 5 years. Going into the 2007-08 season, he has only played in 38 games and is in his 5th season, meaning he is exempt from waivers until either the end of the 2007-08 season or he plays in 42 NHL games [whichever comes first]; he will not be exempt from waivers in 2008-09.


Last edited by 210: 01-13-2008 at 01:20 PM.
210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 01:55 PM
  #34
Robb_K
Registered User
 
Robb_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NordHolandNethrlands
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,587
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I have no idea if he needs to go through or not, I just know he'd not have any problems clearing them if he needed to.

EDIT x2: He's played 52 NHL games, so it looks like he will have to based on this from IB's site
So, he WILL be subject to waivers. Once he plaid his 4th game with The Blues, he became subject to waivers.

Are there any NHL teams with goaltender injury problems, who need a backup now? I'm guessing that The Blues wouldn't risk losing Toivonen by placing him on waivers, as their system would then be short of goalies, and they couldn't pick up the waived backup goalie dropped by the team picking up Toivy, IF he were currently injured.

I think The Blues will need to have Wamsley work closely with Hannu, and hope he can get his confidence back, keep his head in the games, and play with better positioning despite playing only in a few scattered games (a difficult thing to do for any goaltender). Sanford was pretty good at that. Too bad he had to leave. He would have made a good backup for Legace. Jamie McClennan seemed to play adequately with weeks in between. But he had a very strong defence in front of him. Maybe he wouldn't do so well with our current defence.

Robb_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 02:55 PM
  #35
trublu16
Registered User
 
trublu16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 762
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
our defence had nothing to do with those goals? wow.
Doesn't the same defense play in front of Manny as does in front of Hannu???

But for some reason, Manny doesn't seem to be giving 4-6-8 goals in a single game. The number do lie some of the times. But this is not one of those times. Just ask a true Bruins fan on the board sometime of there opinion on Hannu. And they will laugh to know that they screwed the Blues on this trade. I would gladly take any of the BLues goaltender prospects over Hannu.

Just 1 mistake by JD and company. Pretty good ratio, so far.

trublu16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 03:25 PM
  #36
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
So, he WILL be subject to waivers. Once he plaid his 4th game with The Blues, he became subject to waivers.

Are there any NHL teams with goaltender injury problems, who need a backup now? I'm guessing that The Blues wouldn't risk losing Toivonen by placing him on waivers, as their system would then be short of goalies, and they couldn't pick up the waived backup goalie dropped by the team picking up Toivy, IF he were currently injured.

I think The Blues will need to have Wamsley work closely with Hannu, and hope he can get his confidence back, keep his head in the games, and play with better positioning despite playing only in a few scattered games (a difficult thing to do for any goaltender). Sanford was pretty good at that. Too bad he had to leave. He would have made a good backup for Legace. Jamie McClennan seemed to play adequately with weeks in between. But he had a very strong defence in front of him. Maybe he wouldn't do so well with our current defence.

As 210 said, no one is going to claim Toivonen.

execwrite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 03:36 PM
  #37
SneakerPimp82
Registered User
 
SneakerPimp82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,654
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to SneakerPimp82
Quote:
Originally Posted by trublu16 View Post
Doesn't the same defense play in front of Manny as does in front of Hannu???

But for some reason, Manny doesn't seem to be giving 4-6-8 goals in a single game. The number do lie some of the times. But this is not one of those times. Just ask a true Bruins fan on the board sometime of there opinion on Hannu. And they will laugh to know that they screwed the Blues on this trade. I would gladly take any of the BLues goaltender prospects over Hannu.

Just 1 mistake by JD and company. Pretty good ratio, so far.
So in the Colorado 9 goal disaster, the defense had nothing to do with it? In this last game the defense had nothing to do with it? Also, you realize Toivonen usually plays the 2nd game of back to back games, meaning a tired defense usually is playing in front of him. So no, it's not the same defense that plays in front of Manny.

Give the guy some time, he's 23 years old, most of the elite goalies today don't peak until they're 25 and older. Legace himself didn't peak until his 30s. I'm not saying that Toivonen's been good, but you have to put his performance in context.

SneakerPimp82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 03:45 PM
  #38
WalterSobchak
Blues Trololol
 
WalterSobchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Gutter Alley
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
So you believe that when Legace plays the defense is great in front of him and by some amazing coincidence everytime Toivonen plays the defense is terrible?

Conspiracy theory? Did Toivo forget to bring the donuts to practice and now everyone hates him?

Wake up people. Toivo is not the guy. The numbers don't lie.
teams totally play different depending on what goaltender is in net. Absolutely. All goalies have different styles, strengths and weaknesses.

Some goaltenders like Cujo and Hasek could be amazing when they were peppered by shots. It kept them in the game. when the shot count gets low though, for whatever reason they turn to swiss cheese.

Toivonen has a long road ahead of him to change his style but he is by no means done. Somebody who sees more games than I can comment on the differences between Legace and Toivonens play but it is absolutely on the defence to adjust to Toivonens game and to assist his game as it is for them to adjust for Legace.

WalterSobchak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 04:44 PM
  #39
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
teams totally play different depending on what goaltender is in net. Absolutely. All goalies have different styles, strengths and weaknesses.

Some goaltenders like Cujo and Hasek could be amazing when they were peppered by shots. It kept them in the game. when the shot count gets low though, for whatever reason they turn to swiss cheese.

Toivonen has a long road ahead of him to change his style but he is by no means done. Somebody who sees more games than I can comment on the differences between Legace and Toivonens play but it is absolutely on the defence to adjust to Toivonens game and to assist his game as it is for them to adjust for Legace.

I don't know what you mean by teams play "different" when Legace and Toivonen start.

Some people here seem to think the Blues are too tired to play when Toivonen is in goal. That seems to explain why Toivonen is struggling.

I'm not buying either theory.

execwrite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 05:07 PM
  #40
StLooFrenchy
Registered User
 
StLooFrenchy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern Illinois
Country: France
Posts: 1,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
I don't know what you mean by teams play "different" when Legace and Toivonen start.

Some people here seem to think the Blues are too tired to play when Toivonen is in goal. That seems to explain why Toivonen is struggling.

I'm not buying either theory.
Maybe it's Toivs that is tired, maybe at 23 he does not have the physical stamina to play at a consitent high level for 60 minutes. That would explain his Hasek like first period and his Lalime like third.

This is just a random conjecture, please don't flame me like I said it as fact.

StLooFrenchy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 06:52 PM
  #41
Robb_K
Registered User
 
Robb_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NordHolandNethrlands
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,587
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StLooFrenchy View Post
Maybe it's Toivs that is tired, maybe at 23 he does not have the physical stamina to play at a consitent high level for 60 minutes. That would explain his Hasek like first period and his Lalime like third.

This is just a random conjecture, please don't flame me like I said it as fact.
I don't think he was too tired to make those saves in the third. More like he lost focus. That's not hard to do when you only play every 10 games. It's hard to get in a groove. But still, that's his job as backup.

Robb_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 08:01 PM
  #42
Prussian_Blue
Registered User
 
Prussian_Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Germany
Posts: 7,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
I didn't know I was debating a hockey fan with a PhD in Genetics. I will be more careful what I say.

For your information, I have already concluded a trade with Montreal fan over in their forum. Yann Danis for a third round pick from the Blues. Just waiting for league approval. (But I still prefer Joseph).

Problem solved.
I don't mind Danis as another alternative, but:

1. The Blues could have had Patzold for nothing, and he's just as good as Danis, IMO.

2. The Blues will probably not be trading draft picks, especially for backup goalies.

P_B


Prussian_Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2008, 08:06 PM
  #43
210
Registered User
 
210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
The Blues could have had Patzold for nothing, and he's just as good as Danis, IMO.
Having seen Patzold and knowing almost nothing about Danis, I'd take Danis.

Seriously.

210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 11:48 AM
  #44
trublu16
Registered User
 
trublu16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 762
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
So in the Colorado 9 goal disaster, the defense had nothing to do with it? In this last game the defense had nothing to do with it? Also, you realize Toivonen usually plays the 2nd game of back to back games, meaning a tired defense usually is playing in front of him. So no, it's not the same defense that plays in front of Manny.

Give the guy some time, he's 23 years old, most of the elite goalies today don't peak until they're 25 and older. Legace himself didn't peak until his 30s. I'm not saying that Toivonen's been good, but you have to put his performance in context.
So if the team defense is so bad on the second night, shouldn't Murray play Manny on the second night due to poor play on the defense. Well either way you want to state it, when Manny is in net we have a very good chance of winning the game. I really don't think any Blues fan can say the same when Hannu is in net.

Jd did not get this guy so that he could have a 3-5 years of developing into a NHL #1 starter. JD went and got this guy to be the Back-up at the NHL level, now. He is not even coming close to what he was brought in to do. So now we must start the revolving door between Peoria and St. Louis to get a back-up net-minder. And with the revolving door, it could screw-up the development of Schwartz.

And BTW...we lost a very good player in this whole debacle, Soderberg. Eye problem or not, he would be better off for this organization than Hanu will ever be. Hell, if MacInnis can come back and play at the NHL level after a major eye injury. Soderberg could have, but I guess I will have to enjoy seeing him in a Bruins uni. But the coming over problem could have been an issue, but much rather take that chance with him, than the problem we have now.

trublu16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 12:01 PM
  #45
TrustInJarmo*
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,828
vCash: 500
I can not believe that there is a thread on this already.

I thought I had left the stltoday talk forums years ago?

Unbelivable.

TrustInJarmo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 12:17 PM
  #46
SneakerPimp82
Registered User
 
SneakerPimp82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,654
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to SneakerPimp82
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
I don't know what you mean by teams play "different" when Legace and Toivonen start.

Some people here seem to think the Blues are too tired to play when Toivonen is in goal. That seems to explain why Toivonen is struggling.

I'm not buying either theory.
The defense being tired isn't the sole reason for Toivonen's struggles, but it's a part of it. I've already said that Toivonen is struggling, but his playing behind a tired defense in just about every game certainly doesn't help.

Just saying that we as fans should be a bit more patient. This team is not a cup contender, it is far too inconsistent and has zero efficiency on the power play. Last time I checked, those two things are important for a good playoff run. Just be patient, enjoy Perron's and EJ's breakthroughs, and hopefully Toivonen will make some breakthroughs as well.

SneakerPimp82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 12:29 PM
  #47
Celtic Note
Chi Town Bound
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,610
vCash: 500
Well per the Blues site Hannu gets sent down and Marek Schwarz comes up.

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 12:38 PM
  #48
General Veers
Registered User
 
General Veers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 1,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Well per the Blues site Hannu gets sent down and Marek Schwarz comes up.
Well nobody has a problem with him being sent down. We just have a problem with some people pulling the chute WAY too early on his career.

General Veers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 12:40 PM
  #49
Celtic Note
Chi Town Bound
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVTEC View Post
Well nobody has a problem with him being sent down. We just have a problem with some people pulling the chute WAY too early on his career.
Completely agree!

Hopefully this will boost both goalies' confidence.

EDIT: Was gonna post this in a new thread, but since we have 50 already on Hannu I just decided to put it here.

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2008, 12:45 PM
  #50
General Veers
Registered User
 
General Veers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 1,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Completely agree!

Hopefully this will boost both goalies' confidence.
I think it will! Haven't seen Marek since del. camp but what a nice guy. He came off the ice after a rusty performance and still smiled and gave me an autograph.

General Veers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.