Slumping forward/defenseman = Trade ASAP
Losing streaks = rebuild again
and just now: Goalie has 1 or more bad starts in a row = not NHL quality/ get CuJo
The team is playing really good hockey, and most of the problems are solving themselves. Patience worked earlier this season, and will work by the end of the season. Just sit back, and relax. If this is JD's only "mistake" then we're in good hands.
Not sure if you are looking at the stats from the Dec. 4th game thru Friday. But they are all pretty much horrible.
GS MIN W / L / OTL EGA GA GAA SA SV SV%
===============================================
Jan 11 COB L 4-6 1 60 1-3-3 0 6 6.01 37 31 .838
Jan 2 EDM L 2-3 0 45 1-2-3 0 3 4.03 21 18 .857
Dec 29 DAL L 4-5 1 64 1-2-2 0 4 3.75 26 22 .846
Dec 26 DET L 0-5 0 32 1-2-1 0 1 1.86 11 10 .909
Dec 11 EDM L 4-5 1 65 1-2-1 0 4 3.69 29 25 .862
Dec 9 COL L 5-9 1 49 1-2-0 0 8 9.79 25 17 .680
Dec 7 EDM W 4-3 1 60 1 -1-0 0 3 3.01 28 25 .893
Dec 4 CGY L 1-3 1 59 0-1-0 0 3 3.06 37 34 .919
So overall in this short period of time, Hannu is 1-3-3 with giving up 32 goals in that period of time. That is horrible, just simply pathetic. Call it what you want, but it was Hannu who let the goals in and not our defense. I don't see Manny letting in crappy weak goals on a regular basis.
But this is something that we all should of expected. Hannu was playing in Boston the same way. It is just that we have a better defense than Boston, as to why it has taken longer time to figure it out that he does not belong in the NHL.
We need to find another goalie that is similar to Sanford. A guy who can come in and play 20 games, and be effective even thou that he hasn't played in 10-15 days. But I know that is what everyone is looking for in a NHL-caliber back-up netminder.
Cujo is NOT the answer for anything. If you want a retread former #1 netminder, wait for Belfour season is over in Europe and then sign him. At least Eddy would be able to stand on his skate longer that 2 second be fore starts flopping around like a fish, ala Cujo!!
Not sure if you are looking at the stats from the Dec. 4th game thru Friday. But they are all pretty much horrible.
GS MIN W / L / OTL EGA GA GAA SA SV SV%
===============================================
Jan 11 COB L 4-6 1 60 1-3-3 0 6 6.01 37 31 .838
Jan 2 EDM L 2-3 0 45 1-2-3 0 3 4.03 21 18 .857
Dec 29 DAL L 4-5 1 64 1-2-2 0 4 3.75 26 22 .846
Dec 26 DET L 0-5 0 32 1-2-1 0 1 1.86 11 10 .909
Dec 11 EDM L 4-5 1 65 1-2-1 0 4 3.69 29 25 .862
Dec 9 COL L 5-9 1 49 1-2-0 0 8 9.79 25 17 .680
Dec 7 EDM W 4-3 1 60 1 -1-0 0 3 3.01 28 25 .893
Dec 4 CGY L 1-3 1 59 0-1-0 0 3 3.06 37 34 .919
So overall in this short period of time, Hannu is 1-3-3 with giving up 32 goals in that period of time. That is horrible, just simply pathetic. Call it what you want, but it was Hannu who let the goals in and not our defense. I don't see Manny letting in crappy weak goals on a regular basis.
But this is something that we all should of expected. Hannu was playing in Boston the same way. It is just that we have a better defense than Boston, as to why it has taken longer time to figure it out that he does not belong in the NHL.
We need to find another goalie that is similar to Sanford. A guy who can come in and play 20 games, and be effective even thou that he hasn't played in 10-15 days. But I know that is what everyone is looking for in a NHL-caliber back-up netminder.
Cujo is NOT the answer for anything. If you want a retread former #1 netminder, wait for Belfour season is over in Europe and then sign him. At least Eddy would be able to stand on his skate longer that 2 second be fore starts flopping around like a fish, ala Cujo!!
our defence had nothing to do with those goals? wow.
our defence had nothing to do with those goals? wow.
So you believe that when Legace plays the defense is great in front of him and by some amazing coincidence everytime Toivonen plays the defense is terrible?
Conspiracy theory? Did Toivo forget to bring the donuts to practice and now everyone hates him?
Wake up people. Toivo is not the guy. The numbers don't lie.
So you believe that when Legace plays the defense is great in front of him and by some amazing coincidence everytime Toivonen plays the defense is terrible?
Conspiracy theory? Did Toivo forget to bring the donuts to practice and now everyone hates him?
Wake up people. Toivo is not the guy. The numbers don't lie.
Mmkay, turn in your hockey credentials now...
Hockey fans above all others should understand that the numbers DO LIE.
You really think that Curtis Joseph at what, 50, is better than Toivonen? If so then I think you're missing a chromosome.
I haven't seen a realistic proposal from you about your choice for the 'ideal' backup...sending Hannu down is not realistic, he would NOT clear waivers.
So let's hear it...if you don't have a legit argument here then you're just trolling to stir the proverbial s-word.
Hockey fans above all others should understand that the numbers DO LIE.
You really think that Curtis Joseph at what, 50, is better than Toivonen? If so then I think you're missing a chromosome.
I haven't seen a realistic proposal from you about your choice for the 'ideal' backup...sending Hannu down is not realistic, he would NOT clear waivers.
So let's hear it...if you don't have a legit argument here then you're just trolling to stir the proverbial s-word.
I didn't know I was debating a hockey fan with a PhD in Genetics. I will be more careful what I say.
For your information, I have already concluded a trade with Montreal fan over in their forum. Yann Danis for a third round pick from the Blues. Just waiting for league approval. (But I still prefer Joseph).
At least right now, as a back-up, Cujo > Toivonen.
And Toivonen sails through waivers.
I thought Toivonen wouldn't be subject to waivers, as he's only 23 years old and is only in his 3rd professional season. If he IS subject to waivers, what is the threshold for player age, and for number of pro years or NHL/pro games played?
I thought Toivonen wouldn't be subject to waivers, as he's only 23 years old and is only in his 3rd professional season. If he IS subject to waivers, what is the threshold for player age, and for number of pro years or NHL/pro games played?
I have no idea if he needs to go through or not, I just know he'd not have any problems clearing them if he needed to.
EDIT x2: He's played 52 NHL games, so it looks like he will have to based on this from IB's site
Quote:
Hannu Toivonen signed an entry-level contract in 2003 at the age of 19, meaning he was exempt from waivers for 5 years. Going into the 2007-08 season, he has only played in 38 games and is in his 5th season, meaning he is exempt from waivers until either the end of the 2007-08 season or he plays in 42 NHL games [whichever comes first]; he will not be exempt from waivers in 2008-09.
I have no idea if he needs to go through or not, I just know he'd not have any problems clearing them if he needed to.
EDIT x2: He's played 52 NHL games, so it looks like he will have to based on this from IB's site
So, he WILL be subject to waivers. Once he plaid his 4th game with The Blues, he became subject to waivers.
Are there any NHL teams with goaltender injury problems, who need a backup now? I'm guessing that The Blues wouldn't risk losing Toivonen by placing him on waivers, as their system would then be short of goalies, and they couldn't pick up the waived backup goalie dropped by the team picking up Toivy, IF he were currently injured.
I think The Blues will need to have Wamsley work closely with Hannu, and hope he can get his confidence back, keep his head in the games, and play with better positioning despite playing only in a few scattered games (a difficult thing to do for any goaltender). Sanford was pretty good at that. Too bad he had to leave. He would have made a good backup for Legace. Jamie McClennan seemed to play adequately with weeks in between. But he had a very strong defence in front of him. Maybe he wouldn't do so well with our current defence.
our defence had nothing to do with those goals? wow.
Doesn't the same defense play in front of Manny as does in front of Hannu???
But for some reason, Manny doesn't seem to be giving 4-6-8 goals in a single game. The number do lie some of the times. But this is not one of those times. Just ask a true Bruins fan on the board sometime of there opinion on Hannu. And they will laugh to know that they screwed the Blues on this trade. I would gladly take any of the BLues goaltender prospects over Hannu.
Just 1 mistake by JD and company. Pretty good ratio, so far.
So, he WILL be subject to waivers. Once he plaid his 4th game with The Blues, he became subject to waivers.
Are there any NHL teams with goaltender injury problems, who need a backup now? I'm guessing that The Blues wouldn't risk losing Toivonen by placing him on waivers, as their system would then be short of goalies, and they couldn't pick up the waived backup goalie dropped by the team picking up Toivy, IF he were currently injured.
I think The Blues will need to have Wamsley work closely with Hannu, and hope he can get his confidence back, keep his head in the games, and play with better positioning despite playing only in a few scattered games (a difficult thing to do for any goaltender). Sanford was pretty good at that. Too bad he had to leave. He would have made a good backup for Legace. Jamie McClennan seemed to play adequately with weeks in between. But he had a very strong defence in front of him. Maybe he wouldn't do so well with our current defence.
Doesn't the same defense play in front of Manny as does in front of Hannu???
But for some reason, Manny doesn't seem to be giving 4-6-8 goals in a single game. The number do lie some of the times. But this is not one of those times. Just ask a true Bruins fan on the board sometime of there opinion on Hannu. And they will laugh to know that they screwed the Blues on this trade. I would gladly take any of the BLues goaltender prospects over Hannu.
Just 1 mistake by JD and company. Pretty good ratio, so far.
So in the Colorado 9 goal disaster, the defense had nothing to do with it? In this last game the defense had nothing to do with it? Also, you realize Toivonen usually plays the 2nd game of back to back games, meaning a tired defense usually is playing in front of him. So no, it's not the same defense that plays in front of Manny.
Give the guy some time, he's 23 years old, most of the elite goalies today don't peak until they're 25 and older. Legace himself didn't peak until his 30s. I'm not saying that Toivonen's been good, but you have to put his performance in context.
So you believe that when Legace plays the defense is great in front of him and by some amazing coincidence everytime Toivonen plays the defense is terrible?
Conspiracy theory? Did Toivo forget to bring the donuts to practice and now everyone hates him?
Wake up people. Toivo is not the guy. The numbers don't lie.
teams totally play different depending on what goaltender is in net. Absolutely. All goalies have different styles, strengths and weaknesses.
Some goaltenders like Cujo and Hasek could be amazing when they were peppered by shots. It kept them in the game. when the shot count gets low though, for whatever reason they turn to swiss cheese.
Toivonen has a long road ahead of him to change his style but he is by no means done. Somebody who sees more games than I can comment on the differences between Legace and Toivonens play but it is absolutely on the defence to adjust to Toivonens game and to assist his game as it is for them to adjust for Legace.
teams totally play different depending on what goaltender is in net. Absolutely. All goalies have different styles, strengths and weaknesses.
Some goaltenders like Cujo and Hasek could be amazing when they were peppered by shots. It kept them in the game. when the shot count gets low though, for whatever reason they turn to swiss cheese.
Toivonen has a long road ahead of him to change his style but he is by no means done. Somebody who sees more games than I can comment on the differences between Legace and Toivonens play but it is absolutely on the defence to adjust to Toivonens game and to assist his game as it is for them to adjust for Legace.
I don't know what you mean by teams play "different" when Legace and Toivonen start.
Some people here seem to think the Blues are too tired to play when Toivonen is in goal. That seems to explain why Toivonen is struggling.
I don't know what you mean by teams play "different" when Legace and Toivonen start.
Some people here seem to think the Blues are too tired to play when Toivonen is in goal. That seems to explain why Toivonen is struggling.
I'm not buying either theory.
Maybe it's Toivs that is tired, maybe at 23 he does not have the physical stamina to play at a consitent high level for 60 minutes. That would explain his Hasek like first period and his Lalime like third.
This is just a random conjecture, please don't flame me like I said it as fact.
Maybe it's Toivs that is tired, maybe at 23 he does not have the physical stamina to play at a consitent high level for 60 minutes. That would explain his Hasek like first period and his Lalime like third.
This is just a random conjecture, please don't flame me like I said it as fact.
I don't think he was too tired to make those saves in the third. More like he lost focus. That's not hard to do when you only play every 10 games. It's hard to get in a groove. But still, that's his job as backup.
I didn't know I was debating a hockey fan with a PhD in Genetics. I will be more careful what I say.
For your information, I have already concluded a trade with Montreal fan over in their forum. Yann Danis for a third round pick from the Blues. Just waiting for league approval. (But I still prefer Joseph).
Problem solved.
I don't mind Danis as another alternative, but:
1. The Blues could have had Patzold for nothing, and he's just as good as Danis, IMO.
2. The Blues will probably not be trading draft picks, especially for backup goalies.
So in the Colorado 9 goal disaster, the defense had nothing to do with it? In this last game the defense had nothing to do with it? Also, you realize Toivonen usually plays the 2nd game of back to back games, meaning a tired defense usually is playing in front of him. So no, it's not the same defense that plays in front of Manny.
Give the guy some time, he's 23 years old, most of the elite goalies today don't peak until they're 25 and older. Legace himself didn't peak until his 30s. I'm not saying that Toivonen's been good, but you have to put his performance in context.
So if the team defense is so bad on the second night, shouldn't Murray play Manny on the second night due to poor play on the defense. Well either way you want to state it, when Manny is in net we have a very good chance of winning the game. I really don't think any Blues fan can say the same when Hannu is in net.
Jd did not get this guy so that he could have a 3-5 years of developing into a NHL #1 starter. JD went and got this guy to be the Back-up at the NHL level, now. He is not even coming close to what he was brought in to do. So now we must start the revolving door between Peoria and St. Louis to get a back-up net-minder. And with the revolving door, it could screw-up the development of Schwartz.
And BTW...we lost a very good player in this whole debacle, Soderberg. Eye problem or not, he would be better off for this organization than Hanu will ever be. Hell, if MacInnis can come back and play at the NHL level after a major eye injury. Soderberg could have, but I guess I will have to enjoy seeing him in a Bruins uni. But the coming over problem could have been an issue, but much rather take that chance with him, than the problem we have now.
I don't know what you mean by teams play "different" when Legace and Toivonen start.
Some people here seem to think the Blues are too tired to play when Toivonen is in goal. That seems to explain why Toivonen is struggling.
I'm not buying either theory.
The defense being tired isn't the sole reason for Toivonen's struggles, but it's a part of it. I've already said that Toivonen is struggling, but his playing behind a tired defense in just about every game certainly doesn't help.
Just saying that we as fans should be a bit more patient. This team is not a cup contender, it is far too inconsistent and has zero efficiency on the power play. Last time I checked, those two things are important for a good playoff run. Just be patient, enjoy Perron's and EJ's breakthroughs, and hopefully Toivonen will make some breakthroughs as well.
Hopefully this will boost both goalies' confidence.
I think it will! Haven't seen Marek since del. camp but what a nice guy. He came off the ice after a rusty performance and still smiled and gave me an autograph.
already on Hannu I just decided to put it here.
