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Grant Fuhr vs Vladislav Tretiak

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Old
01-27-2008, 11:46 AM
  #101
Den
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
...and Igor Larionov may be the best Russian center of all-time .. yet he wouldn't crack the top 20 centers in Canada.
L is not the best Russian center, but saying that he wouldn't crack something watching hiim in his 30-s, well, that's also rather questionable....

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01-27-2008, 11:54 AM
  #102
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How about Tretiak vs. Ken Dryden?

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01-27-2008, 04:43 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Koivu84 View Post
Grant Fuhr is in a league of his own, Tretiak is overrated he played on stacked Soviet teams.
Fuhr may be in a league of his own, buty it sure as hell aint a good one.

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01-27-2008, 05:05 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.S. Giggy View Post
How about Tretiak vs. Ken Dryden?
Dryden , though I think it's more close than most people would say. Dryden had a short career and played behind one of the best defensive corps ever (Robinson,Savard,Lapointe,Jarvis,Gainey...)

And I'd take Tretiak over Fuhr. I'm not a big fan of "money goalies" at all. If you make all the saves you have to make in regulation , there won't be and overtime to be "clutch".

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01-27-2008, 06:05 PM
  #105
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Jiggs_10 i didnt remove anything from the stats page i found i just copy and pasted and if you want the shots then ill put them up. And moog never was a starter for the cup team fuhr won 4 of them. Fuhr was injured late in the islander series all moog did was finish that series off. Fuhr lead them there so to say moog won a cup in 84 your full of it. And still no where in the playoffs ive seen 10-8 or 9-7 games. Score wise they all look similar to the games played today.

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01-27-2008, 06:11 PM
  #106
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Fuhr vs Tretiyak

If you want the shots total ill find it on another site and post them up. I cant find the 84 and 85 cup seasons right now either and ill post them up as well. Im not hiding anything im just stating the myths of the 10-8 games and 7-6 games is just that a myth. Ive seen stats in the reg season alot of games were like that but comes to playoff time non really were.
About moog fuhr and ranford starting and winning cups moog never won a cup where he started all throughout the playoffs. Grant fuhr got injured in the series aginst the islanders and moog came in and finished that series off. All that playoffs fuhr nearly played every game. So where did moog lead them to the cup?????????????????? If anything he almost cost them that cup. Moog was shaky as hell when he came in for relief and i think lafontaine socred like 2 goals in under a min or something like that which almost cost them that game. Moog had his chance the year before where he did lead them to the cup but lost and was badly outplayed by billy smith.
When fuhr got his chacne the first game of the series he outdueled billy smith 1-0 in ny which change the whole complexion of the series.

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01-27-2008, 06:15 PM
  #107
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I doubt that Fuhr would've choked against a team of American amateurs and allowed 2 goals in the 1st period at Lake Placid. He would've stopped Henderson too!

Fuhr was incredible. Anyone who watched him shutout the Isles in game one of the '84 Final can tell you that. It was a performance for the ages and if not for that victory, perhaps the Oilers don't win that series.

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01-27-2008, 06:16 PM
  #108
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fuhr vs tretiyak

You also forgot to mention that following the year ranford took the team to the cup in 1990 fuhr regained the job in 1991 and almost took the oilers back to the finals. The main diff from the 1990 oiler team to the 91 was kurri left for europe.

With out gretzky kurri and coffey the oilers almost went back to the stanly cup finals led by fuhr in goal. The underdog oilers beat the flames in 7, they were also underdog against the kings they beat them in 6 where they won 3 double overtime games in a row and they lost when they were fav to the north stars that year or they would of went back to the finals. After the first two rounds especially the series against the flames they looked flat and had nothing left against northstars nothing against them because they had a great cinderella run of there own.

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01-27-2008, 06:23 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Koivu84 View Post
Grant Fuhr is in a league of his own, Tretiak is overrated he played on stacked Soviet teams.
As I wrote earlier in this thread, Tretiak won the most Soviet Player of the Year Award, five. No one else won more than three. That is a terrific distinction being that they were, as you put it, "stacked Soviet teams."

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01-27-2008, 06:42 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by reggiep View Post
If you want the shots total ill find it on another site and post them up.
So you took that from a site that took it from my site? Because it's clearly my work, except that someone removed the shots and saves for whatever reason.

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01-27-2008, 06:43 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by David Puddy View Post
As I wrote earlier in this thread, Tretiak won the most Soviet Player of the Year Award, five.
How would you determine the "Most Soviet Player of the Year" award?

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01-27-2008, 07:30 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by reggiep View Post
J And still no where in the playoffs ive seen 10-8 or 9-7 games. Score wise they all look similar to the games played today.
A few examples:

1982:

1st round:

Apr. 7 Los Angeles 10 Edmonton 8
Apr. 10 Los Angeles 6 Edmonton 5
Apr. 13 Los Angeles 7 Edmonton 4

1984:

2nd round:

Apr. 13 Calgary 6 Edmonton 5

3rd round:

Apr. 28 Edmonton 8 Minnesota 5

1985:

3rd round:

May 12 Chicago 8 Edmonton 6
May 14 Edmonton 10 Chicago 5

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01-27-2008, 07:47 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by reggiep View Post
If anything he almost cost them that cup. Moog was shaky as hell when he came in for relief and i think lafontaine socred like 2 goals in under a min or something like that which almost cost them that game. Moog had his chance the year before where he did lead them to the cup but lost and was badly outplayed by billy smith.
When fuhr got his chacne the first game of the series he outdueled billy smith 1-0 in ny which change the whole complexion of the series.
Is today Revisionist History day?

In 1983 it was hardly Moog's fault that they lost. Edmonton only scored 6 goals the entire series. Gretzky 0 goals, Messier 1 goal, Anderson 1 goal, Coffey 1 assist. Yeah, let's blame the goalie

1984: Sorry, but beating a proud Islander team desperate to keep their crown twice to finish off a series was an accomplishment on Moog's part. He hardly deserves all the blame for the LaFontaine goals.

Yes, Fuhr was the better goalie. But please stick to the facts instead of making up things.

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Steve smith was a pilon who cost them the cup in 86, with smith huddy randy gregg. These guys were awful,
Actually Charlie Huddy was a very good defensive defenceman, and pinning all the blame for `86 on Smith is somewhat stupid. Shouldn't Fuhr have been paying more attention? Was the fact that a less talented Calgary had taken Edmonton to a Game 7 all Steve Smith's fault?

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01-27-2008, 09:13 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Actually Charlie Huddy was a very good defensive defenceman, and pinning all the blame for `86 on Smith is somewhat stupid. Shouldn't Fuhr have been paying more attention? Was the fact that a less talented Calgary had taken Edmonton to a Game 7 all Steve Smith's fault?
If you watch the replay again, that goal was definitely not Fuhr's fault. He was in his crease getting himself set, the goal was all Smith's fault. The series was not all Smith's fault but that goal was.

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01-27-2008, 10:09 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
If you watch the replay again, that goal was definitely not Fuhr's fault.
I know it wasn't Fuhr's fault. But as long as everybody else was using ridiculously exaggerated biased revisionist arguments, I figured I'd join in.

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Old
01-28-2008, 12:16 AM
  #116
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good working reckoning you found 5 or 6 very high scorin games in a decade. Still the myth that the oilers only won the cups because they won every game by scoring 6 to 7 goals from the excuse people use why fuhr was overrated. In 1982 they didnt even win the stanly cup. Most of the games back then in the playoffs the oilers won and lost were still reasonably the same as score you would see in the 90's or today. Yeah a game here and there it was a big scoring game but you could also see that in the 90's and in the modern game as well.

Lets look all through out the decade most games in the playoffs were 3-2 4-3 2-1 ect ect then 10-8. An odd game here or there might by but 95 percent of the time they were close low scoring games. in 1982 when they did score alot of goals as 3 out of the 6 came in that one playoff round as you posted they didnt even win the cup. It shows you u need good goaltending as well with that offence to win the cup. The oilers didnt get the good goaltending from fuhr that year like they did the years after in 1982.

About the andy moog comment what ive read others on here post as well if moog was so good why didnt he win or lead a team to the cup. He never won with the oilers he rode on fuhr's coat tails with the oilers when he had numerous oportunities too take the job. After years with edmonton he had amazing boston teams he went to the finals once again and lost to the oilers. In 1993 boston perhaps had there best team in a decade with neely oats bourgue juneau ect ect and many picked them to go to the finals that year and they got swept by the sabres who struggled all year. Moog was a good goalie at best but he could never lead a team all the way to the championship when he had numerous opportunities too. In 1984 when fuhr took over beating the isles 1-0 nothing in ny and outdeuling billy smith that game right there turned the whole complexion of the series.

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Old
01-28-2008, 12:20 AM
  #117
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And reckoning if you think charlie huddy was a good defenseman you got issues. And steve smith has been a pilon his whole career not just because of the goal that cost the series with the oilers. Those guys were so immobile and slow for that era they would constantly get beat on odd man rushes. And anyone who thinks Paul coffey was a good defensive defenseman has the same issues as reckoning has.

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01-28-2008, 03:10 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by reggiep View Post
And reckoning if you think charlie huddy was a good defenseman you got issues. And steve smith has been a pilon his whole career not just because of the goal that cost the series with the oilers. Those guys were so immobile and slow for that era they would constantly get beat on odd man rushes. And anyone who thinks Paul coffey was a good defensive defenseman has the same issues as reckoning has.
You do realize that 4 of the 7 defensemen on Canada's '84 Canada Cup team were Oilers right? -- as well as Steve Smith being a part of the '91 team? Unless Team Canada had a penchant for stocking it's D-line with slow and immoble defensemen, your argument holds no water. This is especially true considering the Soviets had a habit of embarrassing slow and immoble defensmen back then.....which they didn't do to Canada in 1984 (or '91 for that matter).

We all agree that those Oilers squads weren't outstanding defensively; however, to state that Kevin Lowe was the only D-man who wasn't a pylon is outright nonsense.
Huddy, Lowe, Gregg, Coffey, Fogolin, Beukeboom, McSorely, Muni, etc. made for a pretty solid d-core those years. In addition, they had some very good 2-way forwards who played both ends of the ice (Kurri, Messier, MacTavish, Krushelnyski, Hunter to name a few).

Fuhr was what he was; one of the better goalies during a terrible decade for his position. However, when compared to other top netminders, he's a sub-par goalie who had the luxury of playing on a sick team. He's certainly nothing compared to Tretiak who always battled toe-to-toe with some of the best NHL goalies of all time during the stacked 1970's.

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01-28-2008, 03:18 AM
  #119
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Its rather amazing that for two hockeygenerations from Kharlamanov to Larionov the Sovjets where maybe the greatest team on the planet. But they don't get the credit for it. They could match anything the Canadians threw at them and still they are underrated.

You have to ask yourself how it could be possible if they didn't have great players! Of course they had. As good as any canadian, just look at the facts. The summit series are a good example but only one series over maybe 20 years of Sovjet dominans.

I still remeber the horror when the KLM line where on the ice against Sweden. Pure massacre...

/Cheers

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01-28-2008, 09:08 PM
  #120
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hey zcine Paul coffey was a good defensive defensment when? And your saying huddy gregg muni were good? They were awful and like i said immobile. Kevin lowe was only there decent defensemen and now you lack all credibility saying paul coffey was a good defensemen.
You saying compared to other goalies fuhr was just avg, who can you compare him too who tretiak played in the 70's? Wait ken dryden right? Oilers have 4 hall of fame getz mess kurri and coff besides fuhr. Ken dryden had something like 12 hall of famers on his team. Wait only fuhr had a privilidge to be on good teams?
With the defense ken dryden had and all hall of famers by the way he wouldnt get 5 two on 1's in a month grant fuhr might get that in one game.
Zcine those guys would of been good in the game today or in a few years past with the clutching and grabbing and neutral zone trap and left wing lock ect ect. They didnt have any of that in the 80's. Glenn Sather told these guys just to go with it and let your skills and talent take over, there wasnt any defensive trap system like used later on which slowed the whole game down. And zcine as soemone here above mentioned i dont think fuhr would of been pulled if he was the goalie in 1981 against a bunch of american amatures.

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01-29-2008, 07:55 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
However, when compared to other top netminders, he's a sub-par goalie who had the luxury of playing on a sick team. He's certainly nothing compared to Tretiak who always battled toe-to-toe with some of the best NHL goalies of all time during the stacked 1970's.
Have to agree with that one.

Grant Fuhr's career record, without Wayne Gretzky on his team:

Season: 215-215-72
Playoffs: 29-29

Exactly .500, i.e. the very definition of average.

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Old
01-30-2008, 10:49 PM
  #122
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The 3 reconstructive shoulder surgeries and what about 6 or 7 knee surgeries had nothing to do those stats you mentioned above huh? When nick kypreos bumped into him and tore all of his knee ligaments in fuhr's leg that was the final straw he never really recovered from that.

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01-31-2008, 12:37 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by reggiep View Post
hey zcine Paul coffey was a good defensive defensment when?
Find a quote where I said Coffey was good defensively.

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Originally Posted by reggiep View Post
And your saying huddy gregg muni were good? They were awful and like i said immobile.
Yes - Gregg, Muni and Huddy were solid defensemen. They weren't all-star calibre, but they weren't Wade Belak calibre either. Awful and immobile defensemen don't make Canada Cup teams.

Edmonton Defensemen
Coffey - HOF member
Fogolin - 1986 All-star
Huddy - '84 Canada Cup
Gregg - '84 Canada Cup
Lowe - 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1993 all-star
Smith - 1991 All-star, 1991 Canada Cup
Muni - 3 time NHL +/- leader
Beukeboom - solid 12 year career
McSorley - one of the best tough guys to ever play

...yeah, that defense looks absolutely terrible.

And remember, Bill Ranford also won the Cup (1990) with practically the same D-core Fuhr had. So it wasn't an accomplishment only Fuhr could have done.


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And zcine as soemone here above mentioned i dont think fuhr would of been pulled if he was the goalie in 1981 against a bunch of american amatures.
The game was in 1980.
And who cares if Fuhr wouldn't have been pulled? It's ridiculous to judge a goalie based on 1 game. Using your reasoning, one could also say Dan Cloutier is a better goalie than Patrick Roy if we judge Roy solely on his 'statue of liberty' game.

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01-31-2008, 11:27 AM
  #124
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How would you determine the "Most Soviet Player of the Year" award?
Eurohockey.net has them listed. I don't spend all my time looking at your site.

Vladislav Tretiak: 1974, 1975, 1976, 1981 and 1983

Viacheslav Fetisov: 1982 and 1986

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01-31-2008, 12:00 PM
  #125
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Eurohockey.net has them listed. I don't spend all my time looking at your site.
It was a joke. As in, how do you determine who is "Most Soviet"?

Never mind.

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