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Old
01-20-2008, 10:56 PM
  #51
Chomsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
still, Higgins wont be traded :

cause he has a A ?
cause he's ONE year younger than Plekanec ?
any other reason ?
'Cause he has a great work ethic, will give anything to win and for the team, 'cause he'll help us retaining Komisarek, 'cause he has the potential to score 30-35 goals, and his on the pace for 30. 'Cause he's a good two-way players, and so on.

Plekanec is a number 2 centreman, so if the price is right, he can be traded anyway. I'm not saying he is on the block or anything, but even though he's part of the core, Gainey will hesitate less in trading Plekanec than he'll for Higgins. Keep in mind that he already offered Plekanec in a trade once, he can do it again. The only trouble with Plekanec is that he'll cost more to resign as RFA/UFA than Higgins, as he'll see his production improving by a huge margin, especially 'cause he's playing with Kovalev and Kostitsyn.


Last edited by Chomsky: 01-20-2008 at 11:02 PM.
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Old
01-20-2008, 11:00 PM
  #52
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Refresh please!

In what trade did BoB offer Pleks?

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01-20-2008, 11:35 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarto View Post
Refresh please!

In what trade did BoB offer Pleks?
When he traded for Kovalev, he offered one of Plekanec, Balej, and Hossa for him..luckily Glen Sather took Balej and not Plekanec! Although he did end up getting Hossa..

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01-20-2008, 11:37 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Rauhofer View Post
When he traded for Kovalev, he offered one of Plekanec, Balej, and Hossa for him..luckily Glen Sather took Balej and not Plekanec! Although he did end up getting Hossa..
Gainey or Sather would never say who was offered, that is pure speculation.

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Old
01-20-2008, 11:44 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
Gainey or Sather would never say who was offered, that is pure speculation.
Actually, it has been confirmed already.

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Old
01-21-2008, 12:37 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
'Cause he has a great work ethic, will give anything to win and for the team,
Same could be said about Plekanec...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
'cause he'll help us retaining Komisarek
huh, says who ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
he has the potential to score 30-35 goals, and his on the pace for 30. 'Cause he's a good two-way players, and so on.
Plekanec is not only on pace for 30 goals too but he's also on pace for 65+ points, wich is NOT the case for Higgins. and Plekanec happen to be a very good two way player...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Plekanec is a number 2 centreman
You really think Higgins is more than a 2nd liner...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Keep in mind that he already offered Plekanec in a trade once,
That's before he became the very good 2nd liner he is right now...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
The only trouble with Plekanec is that he'll cost more to resign as RFA/UFA than Higgins, as he'll see his production improving by a huge margin, especially 'cause he's playing with Kovalev and Kostitsyn.

Well, that's how the system works, you play better you get more money... what is Gainey supposed to do, get rid of good players cause they cost too much ?



Plekanec,s production is improving EVERY year, and last year he started to play the way he is right now after Carbs gave him different wingers...

the guy was very good with Zednik and Perezhogin in the playoffs - rookie year, did great in the 2nd half last year with Kostytsin/Higgins, now is doing good with Kovalev... so I highly doubt he's producing BECAUSE of his linemates...



I don't think Higgins is trash or anything, but if their contribution on the ice is an indication of their "importance"... well! Plekanec is a few steps ahead...

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Old
01-21-2008, 12:59 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Same could be said about Plekanec...

huh, says who ?

Long Island close friends. Well documented, go read articles.

Plekanec is not only on pace for 30 goals too but he's also on pace for 65+ points, wich is NOT the case for Higgins. and Plekanec happen to be a very good two way player...

I'm not saying the contrary, but if you think that Higgins can be as good as Plekanec, you are blinded by your own hatred or love whatever. Keep him mind that Pleks' line has not been modified for months, and Kovalev and Kostitsyn are helping his point total as much as he's helping theirs. Higgins has not that chance as of now.


You really think Higgins is more than a 2nd liner...

I do.

That's before he became the very good 2nd liner he is right now...

I give you that.

Well, that's how the system works, you play better you get more money... what is Gainey supposed to do, get rid of good players cause they cost too much ?

Depends if they can be expendable. Currently he's not.


Plekanec,s production is improving EVERY year, and last year he started to play the way he is right now after Carbs gave him different wingers...

So did his linemates. I can't say that he has improved his skills, he's just more constant.

the guy was very good with Zednik and Perezhogin in the playoffs - rookie year, did great in the 2nd half last year with Kostytsin/Higgins, now is doing good with Kovalev... so I highly doubt he's producing BECAUSE of his linemates...

So, you say that he did better with different linemates, yet he's not benefiting from his linemates?

I don't think Higgins is trash or anything, but if their contribution on the ice is an indication of their "importance"... well! Plekanec is a few steps ahead...

Sure right now he's as Higgins is slumping. Did I say the contrary?
.....

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Old
01-21-2008, 01:27 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Same could be said about Plekanec...

huh, says who ?

Plekanec is not only on pace for 30 goals too but he's also on pace for 65+ points, wich is NOT the case for Higgins. and Plekanec happen to be a very good two way player...

You really think Higgins is more than a 2nd liner...

That's before he became the very good 2nd liner he is right now...

Well, that's how the system works, you play better you get more money... what is Gainey supposed to do, get rid of good players cause they cost too much ?

Plekanec,s production is improving EVERY year, and last year he started to play the way he is right now after Carbs gave him different wingers...

the guy was very good with Zednik and Perezhogin in the playoffs - rookie year, did great in the 2nd half last year with Kostytsin/Higgins, now is doing good with Kovalev... so I highly doubt he's producing BECAUSE of his linemates...

I don't think Higgins is trash or anything, but if their contribution on the ice is an indication of their "importance"... well! Plekanec is a few steps ahead...
There is something wrong here. It seems some people feel that the word "trade" is a synonym for the word "throw away".

This is false, despite the bad habits of people here who say, "So-and-so sucked lately, so trade him."

In REALITY, the chances of someone being traded are NOT related to how well he plays. It is probably fair to say that players of EVERY possible skill level in the league get traded. Superstars get traded, stars get traded, first-liners get traded, second-liners get trades, third-liners get traded, depth forwards get traded, #1 goalies get traded, #2 goalies get traded, 25 minute D-men get traded, 10 minute D-men get traded. And then again, each year, most players do NOT get traded!

I hope you get my point.

Trades in the NHL are made or NOT made for many reasons, including "fit", salary, length of contract, NTCs, age, loyalty, chemistry, locker room squabbles, philosophy of the teams involved, depth at each position of the teams involved and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, what is received in return.

So, if person X claims that Higgins is less likely to be traded than Plekanec (a statement I AGREE with), this does NOT mean that Higgins is a better player than Plekanec (a statement I DISAGREE with).


It is missing the point to counter X's argument with facts that show Plekanec is a strong player, which he is.

My view is this: it is somewhat MORE likely that Plekanec will be traded in exchange for something we need more than we need Pleks THAN Higgins will be traded in exchange for something we need more than we need Higgins.


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 01-21-2008 at 01:48 AM.
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Old
01-21-2008, 01:33 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
'Cause he has a great work ethic, will give anything to win and for the team, 'cause he'll help us retaining Komisarek, 'cause he has the potential to score 30-35 goals, and his on the pace for 30. 'Cause he's a good two-way players, and so on.

Plekanec is a number 2 centreman, so if the price is right, he can be traded anyway. I'm not saying he is on the block or anything, but even though he's part of the core, Gainey will hesitate less in trading Plekanec than he'll for Higgins. Keep in mind that he already offered Plekanec in a trade once, he can do it again. The only trouble with Plekanec is that he'll cost more to resign as RFA/UFA than Higgins, as he'll see his production improving by a huge margin, especially 'cause he's playing with Kovalev and Kostitsyn.
Pleks is emerging as a PPG player, and looks more and more like a #1 center IMO.

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Old
01-21-2008, 01:46 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Gainey will not trade Higgins. You don't trade a 24 years old player with a "A" ,and already part of your core. I know that you have to give in order to receive, but think again. Plekanec is a possibly, Higgins is not.
Plekanec is the most important forward of this franchise.

I don't know if you're overrating Higgins here, or underrating Plekanec. Maybe a bit of both.


Slowly but surely, Higgins is replacing Koivu as the most overrated forward in Montreal.

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Old
01-21-2008, 01:53 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Plekanec is the most important forward of this franchise.

I don't know if you're overrating Higgins here, or underrating Plekanec. Maybe a bit of both.


Slowly but surely, Higgins is replacing Koivu as the most overrated forward in Montreal.
Right now that's very arguable. IMO right now it's Kovalev.

Go read my response to his comments, I did say that Plekanec was more important right now than Higgins to the team, but some people do overrate Plekanec, as I probably overrate Higgins by saying that he could be more than a 2nd line Winger.

Edit: Good example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
Pleks is emerging as a PPG player, and looks more and more like a #1 center IMO.
Actually that's Price and Lats (Not on this board though).

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Old
01-21-2008, 01:53 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Plekanec is the most important forward of this franchise.

I don't know if you're overrating Higgins here, or underrating Plekanec. Maybe a bit of both.


Slowly but surely, Higgins is replacing Koivu as the most overrated forward in Montreal.
The question is, is he overated as well on the market, or is it just our common habs fan bias? What do you think?

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Old
01-21-2008, 02:06 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
The question is, is he overated as well on the market, or is it just our common habs fan bias? What do you think?
Well, I'm refering to this board. I wouldn't know what people think of him.

I know I think Higgins is a really good young player. My guess is most people see him as good young player with stretches of inconsistent play.

Certainly, any NHL team would be happy to have him. But he's asked to do a bit more than he can chew in Montreal and people tend to go nuts around here because they pro-rate seasons whenever they can make a positive argument for a player.

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Old
01-21-2008, 02:09 AM
  #64
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Right now that's very arguable. IMO right now it's Kovalev.
I disagree but that's a good call. It's very possible that Kovalev is the best forward of this team but I am a huge fan of Plekanec's simple and effective game

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01-21-2008, 02:11 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Well, I'm refering to this board. I wouldn't know what people think of him.

I know I think Higgins is a really good young player. My guess is most people see him as good young player with stretches of inconsistent play.

Certainly, any NHL team would be happy to have him. But he's asked to do a bit more than he can chew in Montreal and people tend to go nuts around here because they pro-rate seasons whenever they can make a positive argument for a player.
From what I think and what you say I'd sasy he's a keeper. I'm just trying to figure if some teams might be high on him, because despite what some panicking fans say, he is a player with a lot of upside. If he would fetch us an elite player in a package deal I would let him go, but it would be a tough parting.

Anyway I don't see him leaving, at least not for nothing, he is too much of a Gainer/Carbo player type.

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Old
01-21-2008, 02:20 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
I disagree but that's a good call. It's very possible that Kovalev is the best forward of this team but I am a huge fan of Plekanec's simple and effective game
I love his shot, speed, vision, defensive awareness, but I'm not a fan of his playmaking abilities. Which is what, I believe, separates him from being a number 1 centre. But when I see how good of a scorer you can be, it makes me wonder if he could be one someday.

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Old
01-21-2008, 07:06 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wade View Post
To CLG: Plekanec + Boullion
To FLA: Tanguay
To MTL: Joikenen


face it.. you hafta give up someone valuable to get someone valuable
Jokinen is not going anywhere for a player like Tanguay...The asking price from Florida is probably good young centre + picks and prospects. Tanguay is less prolific, a doesn't really fit in with the current florida ideal. Also Tanguay would have to re-waive his NTC to go to Florida would he not? And can you imagine if Montreal would let go a Quebec born player with superstar potential just walk out the back door? The media would crucify Gainey.

I think that Eklund's speculation about the Tanguay deal makes sense. Ryder for Tanguay straight up or with a pick added. Basically, a pure cap move. Tanguay never played to potential or up to his contract. Ryder could probably do the same for the team and be much cheaper. Actually Ryder would probably pick it up to prove himself to this new team.

I think that a Jokinen deal would look more like:

Pleks, O'byrne, Locke + 1st in 2008

Jokinen is an extremely valuable first liner who would be involved in a bidding war. No way is he going for less. He's pretty much on pace for 40 goals, is a decent leader and is playing for one of the most defensive teams in the league. Imagine what he could do on an offensive minded team. This guy has trade value written all over him.

That's my two cents anyways.

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Old
01-21-2008, 08:52 AM
  #68
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Why not trade Higgins?

24 years old.
Non-French Canadian that loves to play in Montreal
Happy to switch between the first and third line
Competent two-way player
Definite potential to score a lot of goals
Already respected
Looking at a third 20 goal season, and at one point before his slide was looking at a 30 goal season.
29 teams in the NHL would love to throw us a bunch of first round picks and trade a ton to get the guy

Now, to some, that last one is a reason to trade him. Those people should not be conversing with humans in public...or online.

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01-21-2008, 09:26 AM
  #69
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Why not trade Higgins?
29 teams in the NHL would love to throw us a bunch of first round picks and trade a ton to get the guy
Um, I see no reason not to trade him if the right package comes around but...err...what 29 team? Higgins hasn't really lit up the NHL world last I checked...unless his defensive abilities are enough to warrant a bunch of 1st round picks...

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01-21-2008, 09:44 AM
  #70
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When he traded for Kovalev, he offered one of Plekanec, Balej, and Hossa for him..luckily Glen Sather took Balej and not Plekanec! Although he did end up getting Hossa..
this is by no means the first time i've read this but who was the source ?

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01-21-2008, 09:52 AM
  #71
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I definetly agree with Lone Rogue. There is plenty of reasons not to trade Higgins. (Yes, I know, I was the one that suggested trading Higgins for Tanguay earlier in the tread) But as has been well said also in this thread, trading a player does not mean dumbing the player. It means that the GM would consider that the assets coming in trade makes the team better (in applicable timeframe) compared to team with assets that are given in said trade.

I doubt that Higgins would be traded. He brings so much to table that other teams would have to overpay (in sense) to give reason for Gainey to give up him. Even with big year ahead, everything so far has pointed towards patience in Habs office and speeding up Higgins development is not necessary I mean that by exchanging Higgins to similar player closer to his peak the player in the position right now improves, although at cost of untapped potential.

So from Habs (fan) perspective, just Tanguay would not be sufficient to get Higgins. At the same time in Flames board, most fans would not see Higgins as reasonable price for Tanguay. Proposal doomed to failure.

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Old
01-21-2008, 11:23 AM
  #72
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Need to stay competitive definetly means that Tanguay won't be moved for picks and prospects. Such move can be made off-season (perhaps with a bit less gain, but having Tanguay for playoffs is asset in itself for Flames). Signing Joseph proved that Flames are not so concerned about their cap space this season (Joseph's cap hit is larger than their previous back-ups).

Now, Sutter has said to being intrested on adding speed to Flames. Montreal has player that would fit perfectly to that picture: have speed, take Tanguay's spot on the roster (2nd line LW), salary would fit nicely to the budget and player's role in the team:

Christopher Higgins

Tanguay for Higgins. Cap hits are 5,250 mil and 1,7 mil.

Tanguay is more experienced, more proven. Add to that he is french-canadian start, something that Habs are always looking for.

Higgins is younger, cheaper and at this season their point production is almost even. Higgins is groomed to be next leader of Habs, he is a kind of fan favourite and close friend of Mike Komisarek.

Who should add and what to make deal fair?
Tanguay will not, based on his comment from last season, wiave his NTC to come to Montreal.

Lefebvre quoted comments made by Tanguay a year ago when the Flames visited the Canadiens in Montreal: "The media are so tough on the French guys here. If you think Toronto is bad, if you think Calgary is bad, for a French guy coming to Montreal? I don't think it gets any worse."

http://www.spectorshockey.net/index....umors&Itemid=9

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Old
01-21-2008, 11:39 AM
  #73
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also , from Spector ;

CALGARY HERALD (VIA NATIONAL POST)/CALGARY SUN: reported Flames winger Alex Tanguay denies reports he's waived his "no-trade" clause, claiming the reported rumors of his doing so didn't come from him.

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