HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

THE OFFICIAL- we need defensemen thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-22-2008, 11:07 PM
  #51
Raffl House
Registered User
 
Raffl House's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,849
vCash: 513
I've seen Vandy make some bad plays, but I've also seen some positives with him -- he is probably learning a system (or re-learning) so I think he deserves an opportunity. I think Jones and Hatcher should be shipped out of here any way possible, sub in Kukkonen and perhaps Picard...

Timonen - Vandermeer
Coburn - Kukkonen
Smith - Picard

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Raffl House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2008, 11:28 PM
  #52
bakunin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joethunder View Post

Timonen - Vandermeer
Coburn - Kukkonen
Smith - Picard

Does that make sense to anyone else?
It sure does. I don't see to make us trades. Just let Lasse on the ice! And i'm pretty happy with the way Jones is playing overall, so wait till next season for bringing in Picard.

bakunin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2008, 11:44 PM
  #53
panayiotis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,248
vCash: 500
really

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Upshall and Kukkonen for Liles or Schultz seemed to get some interest on the Trade board. Forsberg would still be in play cap-wise if one of those trades went down.
I said this during the summer. Timmonen play 5 on 5 has been mediocore. Too many plodders.

panayiotis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2008, 11:50 PM
  #54
bney7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
The devils beat us reguardless of who's playing for us. I wouldn't judge our team solely on tonight. We have been dominated by the devils the past 10 years or so.

bney7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 12:26 AM
  #55
Shoeny
Registered User
 
Shoeny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 687
vCash: 500
How about bringing up Parent? He's a + 10 with the Phantoms. Downie was drafted in the same draft and he's up and nobody's complaining about him being ready or minutes.

he can't be any slower than Hatcher and he can't be a worse puck handler than Smith and he probably can't make stupider plays than Vandemeer and Jones

Shoeny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 12:27 AM
  #56
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,044
vCash: 500
I see zero reason at this point to not dump Hatcher and Jones and bring up Parent and Picard. Platoon Vandermeer, Smith, and Kukkonen to keep guys fresh down the stretch.

We've taken enough time to see what this defensive corps can do and it isn't good enough to beat the teams that we will need to beat. Picard has had enough AHL time, and Parent is a blue chipper who has now had time to adjust to the pro game. If what we have now isn't going to cut it, what's the point in sticking with it.

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 02:25 AM
  #57
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 5,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'd disagree here. Both Vandermeer and Jones get beaten on a consistent basis. Who get beats more? That's hard to say, I'd honestly say it's about even. But at least Jones has some puck skills and I think could be a 30-35 point d-man. Vandy doesn't appear to have these skills and he's not really any better defensively.

I still don't see why the Jones-Kukkonen pairing wasn't reunited because honestly, that pairing was when both of them were at their best.
Idk that I would go quite that far but your correct. Vandermeer often gets himself out of position trying to go for a hit and gets beat, and sometimes Randy gets caught flat footed (seriously Oduya?). I think a trade at this point is risky. Assuming Parent is NHL ready for next season I would rather just go into the playoffs with what we have. To me we have a very young team and who knows how they'll respond in the playoffs. I would rather wait it out let everyone develop and tinker with it when necessary but you only go deadline shopping if your making a cup run, which we shouldn't be doing, or desperately trying to make the playoffs which we have a real good shot at with the lineup we've got.

McNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 07:12 AM
  #58
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeny View Post
How about bringing up Parent?
That's what I would do. The chance of him completely failing to make the jump is 0.0%.

The problem is that it would be to replace Hatcher.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 08:05 AM
  #59
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,186
vCash: 50
The bottom line is, if we didn't take any daft penalties last night, we go into OT.

1865 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 08:40 AM
  #60
JLHockeyKnight
IMA Real American
 
JLHockeyKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Central Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 19,438
vCash: 500
I just think we need to bring Kukkonen back up. That's all.

And I'll state the obvious.

1. We have way too many "Official" threads, why can't we just have The "We Need Defensemen" thread.

2. Spelled Defensemen wrong.

3. Our defense had an off night, that's all. Relax people, when we start playing like this 3 games straight, that's when you worry.

JLHockeyKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 09:37 AM
  #61
mm6492
Registered User
 
mm6492's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnightRU View Post
I just think we need to bring Kukkonen back up. That's all.

And I'll state the obvious.

1. We have way too many "Official" threads, why can't we just have The "We Need Defensemen" thread.

2. Spelled Defensemen wrong.

3. Our defense had an off night, that's all. Relax people, when we start playing like this 3 games straight, that's when you worry.
1. it sounded more sophistacated(i spelled that wrong i think)
2.i was PO'd while typing it

mm6492 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 09:43 AM
  #62
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Well....I completely disagree with you about Jones, but I don't have the energy to discuss it right now. Too worn out from watching that friggin' whooping.

As for Hatcher, I do agree there, however I have a hard time believing they would actually sit him and his large paycheck in the press box.

EDIT: By the way, I've haven't been too down on Vandy until very recently. Specifically the last 3 or 4 games is when I've had a lot of problems with his play.
He has been brutal the last 4 games....

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 09:49 AM
  #63
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
I second the Jones-Kukkonen Pairing. That Pairing rocks.

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 09:59 AM
  #64
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
I don't know why a lot of people feel this way and why I'm one of the few who doesn't. I have no attachment to Jim Vandermeer, I just don't see him as the worst guy out there. Hatcher and Jones (at times) are both far worse.
Storm, I dont necessarily disagree with you here, I just dont see them waiving Hatcher so someone else has to go. Hatcher has been bad at times, no doubt, we all know that but Vanduhmeer has been brutal the last 4 games. Jones is what he always has been, other then for about 10 games where he looked good.

Here is the problem. Lets stop looking at indiviual dmen for a minute and look at the group as a whole and the roles they play. You have Timonen who is the #1, no argument there. You then have Coburn who is a good/very good two way guy in the making, hard to argue that he is #2.

After that you need 4 more guys between Smith, Hatcher, Vanduhmeer, Jones, Kukkonen.

The problem is, those first 3 guys basically play the same EXACT role. Gritty, physical, battle in front of the net, etc. None of them are very good puckhandlers (with varying levels among the three) and none of them offer much, if anything, as far as offense. WE CANT HAVE ALL THREE IN THE LINEUP AT THE SAME TIME

Smith is the best of the 3, in my opinion, and out captain so he becomes #3. (Timonen, Coburn, Smith)

Hatcher, although we all agree should not be on this roster anymore, is most likely here to stay cause I dont see any indication that the organization is going to waive him so he becomes #4 (Timonen, Coburn, Smith, Hatcher)

Now, you have your stud offensive dman, a good two way guy and two slower, gritty, physical guys that offer nothing along the lines of puck skills, offense or the ability to get the puck out of the zone other then a lucky chip shot around the glass. That brings you to Kukkonen. He doesnt offer a lot of offense, but he is very steady with the puck, and can actually skate the puck out of the zone and make a good pass, something we need in this lineup badly, he becomes #5.

Gets you to the last spot. Vanduhmeer? Should be in there before Hatcher, but wont be, we already have two of this kind of dman so GOODBYE.

The only thing we are missing at this point is a little more offense to help out Timonen, and to a lesser extent Coburn. You have the option of going with a really young guy in Picard, or a guy that offers the occasional decent offensive play in Jones. Personally rather go with Picard, but we cant send Jones to the Phantoms so you let Picard finish the year with the Phantoms and go with Jones.

Timonen Kukkonen
Coburn Smith/Hatcher
Jones Hatcher/Smith


Quote:
Originally Posted by joethunder View Post
I've seen Vandy make some bad plays, but I've also seen some positives with him -- he is probably learning a system (or re-learning) so I think he deserves an opportunity. I think Jones and Hatcher should be shipped out of here any way possible, sub in Kukkonen and perhaps Picard...

Timonen - Vandermeer
Coburn - Kukkonen
Smith - Picard

Does that make sense to anyone else?
It makes sense, but that assumes they would waive Hatcher which I just dont ever see happening

Quote:
Originally Posted by kz View Post
I see zero reason at this point to not dump Hatcher and Jones and bring up Parent and Picard. Platoon Vandermeer, Smith, and Kukkonen to keep guys fresh down the stretch.

We've taken enough time to see what this defensive corps can do and it isn't good enough to beat the teams that we will need to beat. Picard has had enough AHL time, and Parent is a blue chipper who has now had time to adjust to the pro game. If what we have now isn't going to cut it, what's the point in sticking with it.
Agreed 100%, just dont see it happenening.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 10:06 AM
  #65
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kz View Post
If what we have now isn't going to cut it, what's the point in sticking with it.
Because it IS cutting it with the exception of those teams at the top, and the Flyers are likely to reach the playoffs as is.

Picard is a non-starter. He had a chance to come up and make his spot and didn't.

Hatcher is lame but he makes three mill (?) and brings other stuff so he'll play while able physically.

I'd have no objections to Parent coming up.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 10:49 AM
  #66
JLHockeyKnight
IMA Real American
 
JLHockeyKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Central Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 19,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
1. it sounded more sophistacated(i spelled that wrong i think)
2.i was PO'd while typing it
Go to your first post, click edit. Then click the advanced button. You should be able to edit the title and fix the spelling error.

JLHockeyKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:11 AM
  #67
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,076
vCash: 955
for the same reason I don't want to see a young forward dealt at the deadline, I'd like to see the seven defensemen the Flyers have play out for the rest of the season. Smith, Hatcher and Timonen are invaluable to the development of Jones and Coburn........ and even Kukkonen. Let Hatcher continue to mentor Coburn. I'm not quite ready to write off Jones as he has shown improvement this year; this is his second full season in the NHL, after all, even though he's no spring chicken at 26. The longer Kukkonen sits, the more I'm convinced there's a nagging injury there. Let him heal up and he can take Vandermeer's place when he's ready.


I believe that no deadline acquisition will put this team over the top without sacrificing what should be the core of the organization for several years. The team, as it is, can make noise in the playoffs, but will ultimately lose to a team with a better system (read: any system).


Holmgren can fill in the holes via free agency, trade, or the farm in the off season. There's no need to rush Parent up the NHL level. Letting him be the stud for the Phantoms for a full year will do well for his confidence; he'll crack the line up next year.


This team needs a defensive makeover, but I'm willing to wait until 2008-09.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:20 AM
  #68
scottymac223
 
scottymac223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Williamstown, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to scottymac223
IMO the Flyers NEED is for another 1-3 dman. Notice I don't say top4 dman. He needs to be better then #4.

If: Timmo is a 1 Coburn is a 3 and the rest are 4's, 5's and 6's (more likely they are all 5's and 6's)
Then: Our need is a top pairing dman.

The Problem: They don't grow on trees and they cost a ton to trade for.

The Solutions: Wait for one of our prospects. 2 years. If they get there.
OR Wait for Free Agency, but we don't have the cap room.
OR Trade. We have prospects and picks. A forward prospect, a d prospect and our 2008 1st round pick. For Bouwmeester, Seabrook, Keith. And I would give more to get the trade team to take Hatcher too.
You're not getting any of them without giving up alot.

Upshall/Umberger
Potulny/Ruzicka
Bartulis/Bodrov/Marshall
2008 1strd pick

scottymac223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:31 AM
  #69
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,901
vCash: 500
Bring back Danny Markov. He's a proven Devil killer. We could move Smith and Hatcher and their salaries alone would be more than enough to bring Danny back.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:32 AM
  #70
claude boivin lives
flat out spectacular
 
claude boivin lives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
for the same reason I don't want to see a young forward dealt at the deadline, I'd like to see the seven defensemen the Flyers have play out for the rest of the season. Smith, Hatcher and Timonen are invaluable to the development of Jones and Coburn........ and even Kukkonen. Let Hatcher continue to mentor Coburn. I'm not quite ready to write off Jones as he has shown improvement this year; this is his second full season in the NHL, after all, even though he's no spring chicken at 26. The longer Kukkonen sits, the more I'm convinced there's a nagging injury there. Let him heal up and he can take Vandermeer's place when he's ready.


I believe that no deadline acquisition will put this team over the top without sacrificing what should be the core of the organization for several years. The team, as it is, can make noise in the playoffs, but will ultimately lose to a team with a better system (read: any system).


Holmgren can fill in the holes via free agency, trade, or the farm in the off season. There's no need to rush Parent up the NHL level. Letting him be the stud for the Phantoms for a full year will do well for his confidence; he'll crack the line up next year.


This team needs a defensive makeover, but I'm willing to wait until 2008-09.
Good post, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I don't like definitively saying that we will ultimately lose to a team with a better system. It's just no fun. That may happen, but if I believed it will...then what would be the point of tuning in to the games every night. Anything can happen in the playoffs...ya gotta believe.

claude boivin lives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:35 AM
  #71
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC
Because it IS cutting it with the exception of those teams at the top, and the Flyers are likely to reach the playoffs as is.

Picard is a non-starter. He had a chance to come up and make his spot and didn't.

Hatcher is lame but he makes three mill (?) and brings other stuff so he'll play while able physically.

I'd have no objections to Parent coming up.
So basically it works, but it doesn't work against the teams that matter. If we know right now that certain members of our defense are not going to cut it against the cream of the crop, the teams that know how to play against us, then what exactly is the point of keeping them on board? So we can beat up on Atlanta and the dodge out of the playoffs in round 1? It's entirely pointless, and dumping those guys for our 2 youngsters gets them seasoned now, and at least has some chance to get us farther than Hatcher and Jones

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:38 AM
  #72
claude boivin lives
flat out spectacular
 
claude boivin lives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Bring back Danny Markov. He's a proven Devil killer. We could move Smith and Hatcher and their salaries alone would be more than enough to bring Danny back.
Danny is currently working the photo counter at a Walgreen's in the Detroit suburbs. Considering that, we might not have to move anyone. He'd probably sign for anything over $7.50/hr.

claude boivin lives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 11:57 AM
  #73
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,434
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Bring back Danny Markov. He's a proven Devil killer. We could move Smith and Hatcher and their salaries alone would be more than enough to bring Danny back.
If Markov would come back I would A pay for Markov's flight from Moscow or where he is, and B pay for Hatchers flight out of town

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 12:00 PM
  #74
CoolinWithCosta
Registered User
 
CoolinWithCosta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Because it IS cutting it with the exception of those teams at the top, and the Flyers are likely to reach the playoffs as is.

Picard is a non-starter. He had a chance to come up and make his spot and didn't.

Hatcher is lame but he makes three mill (?) and brings other stuff so he'll play while able physically.

I'd have no objections to Parent coming up.
So you would rather have Parent, a guy with 0 NHL experience, come up for a playoff run over Picard who had 25 or whatever assists last year and is a quality puck moving d-man? Seems a little silly to me. I thought that everyone agreed that we needed another puck moving defenseman to help break out of the defensive zone because thats where a lot of the problems have been. We don't have our dmen making crisp passes out of the zone and it's just turning into turnovers and breakouts for the opposing team. Picard has proven he's got good vision of the ice and can move the puck around.

I'm not trying to make this seem like I don't want Parent on the squad. That's far from the truth. I think he should be up playing rather than Vandy or Jones because he's a much more solid defensive defenseman and can use his speed in a league that is based on speed. There just isn't a spot for him right now.

CoolinWithCosta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2008, 12:02 PM
  #75
Kaktus*
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottymac223 View Post
IMO the Flyers NEED is for another 1-3 dman. Notice I don't say top4 dman. He needs to be better then #4.

If: Timmo is a 1 Coburn is a 3 and the rest are 4's, 5's and 6's (more likely they are all 5's and 6's)
Then: Our need is a top pairing dman.

The Problem: They don't grow on trees and they cost a ton to trade for.

The Solutions: Wait for one of our prospects. 2 years. If they get there.
OR Wait for Free Agency, but we don't have the cap room.
OR Trade. We have prospects and picks. A forward prospect, a d prospect and our 2008 1st round pick. For Bouwmeester, Seabrook, Keith. And I would give more to get the trade team to take Hatcher too.
You're not getting any of them without giving up alot.

Upshall/Umberger
Potulny/Ruzicka
Bartulis/Bodrov/Marshall
2008 1strd pick
You are not going to get top 2 d-man for

Upshall/Umberger
Potulny/Ruzicka
Bartulis/Bodrov/Marshall

Kaktus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.