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THE OFFICIAL- we need defensemen thread

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Old
01-23-2008, 01:07 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Bring back Danny Markov. He's a proven Devil killer. We could move Smith and Hatcher and their salaries alone would be more than enough to bring Danny back.
We traded Justin Williams for him originally. Isn't he in Russia?

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01-23-2008, 01:16 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by kz View Post
So basically it works, but it doesn't work against the teams that matter. If we know right now that certain members of our defense are not going to cut it against the cream of the crop, the teams that know how to play against us, then what exactly is the point of keeping them on board? So we can beat up on Atlanta and the dodge out of the playoffs in round 1? It's entirely pointless, and dumping those guys for our 2 youngsters gets them seasoned now, and at least has some chance to get us farther than Hatcher and Jones
And some chance to make it worse.

Picard did not play well his last time up.

I'd have no quarrel with bringing up Parent.

What do you mean by "dumping" Hatcher?

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01-23-2008, 01:19 PM
  #78
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So you would rather have Parent, a guy with 0 NHL experience, come up for a playoff run over Picard who had 25 or whatever assists last year and is a quality puck moving d-man? Seems a little silly to me. I thought that everyone agreed that we needed another puck moving defenseman to help break out of the defensive zone because thats where a lot of the problems have been. We don't have our dmen making crisp passes out of the zone and it's just turning into turnovers and breakouts for the opposing team. Picard has proven he's got good vision of the ice and can move the puck around.

I'm not trying to make this seem like I don't want Parent on the squad. That's far from the truth. I think he should be up playing rather than Vandy or Jones because he's a much more solid defensive defenseman and can use his speed in a league that is based on speed. There just isn't a spot for him right now.
I think I learned from one game last year that Parent would do no damage if he was moved up. Picard was up earlier and he didn't look good at all.

Good point about puck moving but my recollection is that Picard did nothing to distinguish himself well earlier this year.

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01-23-2008, 01:28 PM
  #79
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I think I learned from one game last year that Parent would do no damage if he was moved up. Picard was up earlier and he didn't look good at all.

Good point about puck moving but my recollection is that Picard did nothing to distinguish himself well earlier this year.

I thought Picard played fine when he was up. He might have had some weaknesses here or there in his defensive game.

As far as distinguishing himself, his passing absolutely did that. He made some fantastic passes in his few games with the Flyers this year.

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01-23-2008, 01:37 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
You are not going to get top 2 d-man for

Upshall/Umberger
Potulny/Ruzicka
Bartulis/Bodrov/Marshall
I also included our 1st in 2008 but I see why you missed that it was in the above paragrach.

So what then. Giroux instead of Potulny/Ruzicka.

ETA: My point was we should be making a trade for a # 2 dman because we are not likely to get one any other way. Teams like FLA and CHI are just about out of it.

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01-23-2008, 02:58 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by scottymac223 View Post
I also included our 1st in 2008 but I see why you missed that it was in the above paragrach.

So what then. Giroux instead of Potulny/Ruzicka.

ETA: My point was we should be making a trade for a # 2 dman because we are not likely to get one any other way. Teams like FLA and CHI are just about out of it.
isnt chicago second in there division w/o toews??

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01-23-2008, 03:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by scottymac223 View Post
I also included our 1st in 2008 but I see why you missed that it was in the above paragrach.

So what then. Giroux instead of Potulny/Ruzicka.

ETA: My point was we should be making a trade for a # 2 dman because we are not likely to get one any other way. Teams like FLA and CHI are just about out of it.
Just because FLA and CHI out of it does not mean they will trade their core d-man. Try Carter... Maybe Carter + plus.
For Bouwmeester will ask for a lot of $... 4-5 maybe 6.

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01-23-2008, 04:06 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Just because FLA and CHI out of it does not mean they will trade their core d-man. Try Carter... Maybe Carter + plus.
For Bouwmeester will ask for a lot of $... 4-5 maybe 6.
You are most likely right. I wasn't suggesting they would dump players, rather that for financial reasons and forward looking reasons they might be willing to move one top player for many good less expensive players. So what else can be doen to fill the void.

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01-23-2008, 04:19 PM
  #84
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isnt chicago second in there division w/o toews??

Last in the Div and 13th in the conference. Still only 5 pts out of 8th. CHI is loaded with young talent, much of it on the blue line. They may not be looking to deal anyone.

I was mostly pointing out the types of players we should be dealing for not really specific players. I don't want to see us trade mutiple prosects for a 30+ year old player. I would prefer we give up more to get a younger #2 dman. I know every team in the NHL wants to do the same, but with our sudden depth at forward we can make a move that many teams cannot.

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01-23-2008, 04:29 PM
  #85
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You might as well strike while the iron is hot.....everyone names all of our forward prospects and say "oh no, we'll have too many!" Here is why you strike now:

Realistically, only 10% of those prospects make it. Some will have injury problems, some will just flat out stop improving, and some aren't even worth talking about now. Identify who you want to keep, and move the rest. You have a bunch of guys with potential NOW, as opposed to 3-4 guys with potential and a bunch of murky, aging prospects.

Second, if the Flyers are serious about the playoffs and we don't have what we need, then make the move. I don't think we are a cup contender at all, but if your going to do it...then do it. You have the resources now so make the move.

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Old
01-23-2008, 04:37 PM
  #86
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im gonna throw two name out there that are being rumored to be traded, Brad Stuart and Christian Backman. Backman has a cap hit of 2.3 and one year left and Stuart has a cap hit of 3.5 and is a free agent after this year. Hatcher would have to be waived for cap room, but I think we all know its inevitable anyway.

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Old
01-23-2008, 05:18 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
I don't know why a lot of people feel this way and why I'm one of the few who doesn't. I have no attachment to Jim Vandermeer, I just don't see him as the worst guy out there. Hatcher and Jones (at times) are both far worse.
agree. vandy would be fine on the 3rd line. why not rest hatcher now and then, he looks slower than usual(maybe the plan is to play him until his knee blows out and he is doen for a whole year). jone sis so unimpressive. the games i have seen parent play for the phantoms her looked very good. Funny how he is never mentioned when it comes to call ups or prospects. They obviously believe he is nto close. Would a 5 game stint be bad to see how he does? Berube has been quoted as sayign guenin and picard are ready right now so parent is like 11 on the depth chart.

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01-23-2008, 05:31 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
agree. vandy would be fine on the 3rd line. why not rest hatcher now and then, he looks slower than usual(maybe the plan is to play him until his knee blows out and he is doen for a whole year). jone sis so unimpressive. the games i have seen parent play for the phantoms her looked very good. Funny how he is never mentioned when it comes to call ups or prospects. They obviously believe he is nto close. Would a 5 game stint be bad to see how he does? Berube has been quoted as sayign guenin and picard are ready right now so parent is like 11 on the depth chart.
i think that parent could be good now but poeple think that we should develop him properly and give him a whole year in the minors and not start moving him around. and the more I think about it, that forseberg trade turned our team around.

parent(top 4 D)+upshall(high energy top9)+1st and 3rd
for
forseberg

there first
for
hartnell and timmonen

we get forseberg back

back on topic now.............

my hope next 2 years
timmonen-parent
cobourn-picard
kukkonen-?????-anyone

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01-23-2008, 10:24 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
yea but he means coburn and jones always join in rush and leave behind there assignement. i think they need a defensive d-man who has the ability to move. all defensive minded players dont have to move as slow as hatcher. they are allowed to go faster. but anything at this point would be good.
You are asking for Ryan Parent. Defensive Dman with crazy speed!

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01-23-2008, 10:47 PM
  #90
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Our D pairings seems to work really well at the start of the year.
They were, if i remember correctly,
Smith-Timmonen
Coburn-Hatch
Kukkonen-Jones

They all had really good plus minus' too. You think that was just the product of the entire team playing well, or that those pairings just worked?

and the entire friggin board is correct. Bring back Lasse.

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Old
01-23-2008, 11:12 PM
  #91
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Gauthier if nothing else.....?

Why havent we seen Gauthier around at all? He has a decent +/- at 9...and has a few point to go along with it. If speed is the question mark with him...it cant be any slower than Hatch. I must admit I have not seen him play since becoming a mainstay with the Phantoms. If the Flyers dont make any moves and have the cap room...why not call him up? He has NHL experience and will be out to prove a point. I have written about bringing Kukks back into the mix...but cleary something is going on....either there is an injury lingering....or he made fun of Stevens wife or something???

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01-24-2008, 01:41 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by CdnFlyersFan View Post
Why havent we seen Gauthier around at all? He has a decent +/- at 9...and has a few point to go along with it. If speed is the question mark with him...it cant be any slower than Hatch. I must admit I have not seen him play since becoming a mainstay with the Phantoms. If the Flyers dont make any moves and have the cap room...why not call him up? He has NHL experience and will be out to prove a point. I have written about bringing Kukks back into the mix...but cleary something is going on....either there is an injury lingering....or he made fun of Stevens wife or something???
Are you an idiot or something. He would have to clear re-entry waivers. And would be claimed, thus we lose him.

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01-24-2008, 02:13 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin View Post
Our D pairings seems to work really well at the start of the year.
They were, if i remember correctly,
Smith-Timmonen
Coburn-Hatch
Kukkonen-Jones

They all had really good plus minus' too. You think that was just the product of the entire team playing well, or that those pairings just worked?

and the entire friggin board is correct. Bring back Lasse.
Hatcher +11
Cobourn +10
Jones +7
Vandermeer +6
Smith +2
Timonen -1

It's funny that you mention good +/-'s when 3 of the top 4 d-man on our team are the scapegoats for everything on this board. Kukkonen is a decent defender, lets not go overboard about how much better he is then the others. As a whole they all have their flaws,Timonen and Cobourn are both good. Everyone else has some major flaws.

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Old
01-24-2008, 02:21 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by scottymac223 View Post
Last in the Div and 13th in the conference. Still only 5 pts out of 8th. CHI is loaded with young talent, much of it on the blue line. They may not be looking to deal anyone.

I was mostly pointing out the types of players we should be dealing for not really specific players. I don't want to see us trade mutiple prosects for a 30+ year old player. I would prefer we give up more to get a younger #2 dman. I know every team in the NHL wants to do the same, but with our sudden depth at forward we can make a move that many teams cannot.
I think Chicago makes a push for Brian Campbell if they can make a push for the 7 or 8 seed in the next couple of weeks. They use that young talent on the blueline as bait.

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Old
01-24-2008, 03:10 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
watching this game against the devils is tough. I know we have timmonen and coburn. i know we want smith for leadership. But past that, we need defense. Against a well coached team such as the Devils or Montreal, it shows. We have kukkonen but Stevens has something against him. I know that we say smith and hatcher are great in PP but does that show agaisnt the 28th ranked PP

Possible trade chips- Upshall,Jones,Kukkonen,Knuble,Hatcher,Vandameer, prospects

Do we need to make a trade?
Do we need to call someone up?
Do we need to sit someone to make a statement?
Do we need better coaching?
Are we fine the way we are?
Do we need to wait for Parent and others in the following years?

I am sorry about this rant but it is hard to watch some of these people. I normally dont react like this but i have seen this against teams that are well coached- peole who will be in the playoffs

Firstly, I want to say that people are too critical after one stinker...threads like these should be made when the team cleary can't win a mjority of its games, not after one bad loss that comes after a string of the best hockey the team has played in a long time. Remember this was a last place team last year...not saying we shouldn't have high expectations given the great job Homer has done but let's manage our expectations a bit. It isn't likey we're going to come near a Cup this year, regardless of what we do. There are going to be some ugly moments.

That said, I think our defense does have some weaknesses that can be addressed with one decent move and some shuffling of what's here already. If you look at it, Timonen is the only guy really in his prime..and while he's a very good player, he's not really a prototypical #1 D man...(he's not Pronger, Lidstrom or Neids) ... if we're going to try and use him in that slot, we need more quality support behind him. I was excited about having Timonen AND Pitkanen before he was dealt...I can't help but think that his exceptional ability to consistently deliver the puck from the d zone to the o zone would be paying big dividends with this team.

The problem is that, right now we depend too much on Timo... I think some of the current supporting players are too young and inexperienced (or just not good enough) while others are too old and slow. If we want to try and elevate to a cup contender during the next two seasons, something has to change. If we want to do this sooner than later (i.e, this year), we would at least need one additional top 4 guy in his prime who can play at both ends... He doesn't have to be a top guy making 5-7 mil...but say, a Tom Preissing who may be available from a struggling Kings team or a Joe Corvo from the Sens who need help up front where we're rich in talent. Those guys may not sound like saviors, but they're mobile guys, with two-way skills and they're in their prime (yet affordable)...they're guys who kind of stuck playing behind deep defensive corps and could jump into a bigger role here... I think the quality depth and experience they would add would fill that hole in our top 4 and help fill the void in our the transition game as well as one on one coverage..and they can put up points. I'd much rather trade a package using assets like Potulny/Ruzicka/Knuble/Jones/Picard + pick(s) for a guy like them versus losing Carter, Giroux or Upshall in a bid for a bigger ticket guy...this kind of move would give us a bridge to help cover the next year or two that we have to wait until we no longer have Hatcher/Smith and Vandy....by then maybe Parent, Picard and/or Bartulis are ready and Coburn is a stud and things are different...

That said we can probably get by without making a move but I wouldn't expect things to get much better...I mean I would definitely pursue ghetting Kukkonen healthy and back in the lineup and look at bringing up Picard/Parent for some looks... but that likely doesn't address the hole that's there in our top 4...




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Old
01-24-2008, 10:02 AM
  #96
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Are you an idiot or something. He would have to clear re-entry waivers. And would be claimed, thus we lose him.
We pay 2mill+ a year for a farm team defensemen? So lets just keep paying him until 2010 out of fear that he would be scooped by another team???? You are a scared human being that spends his Friday nights rubbing one out to Robot Wars while eating bag after bag of Cheetos. Enjoy your s#*t life bud.

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01-24-2008, 10:25 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin View Post
Our D pairings seems to work really well at the start of the year.
They were, if i remember correctly,
Smith-Timmonen
Coburn-Hatch
Kukkonen-Jones

They all had really good plus minus' too. You think that was just the product of the entire team playing well, or that those pairings just worked?

and the entire friggin board is correct. Bring back Lasse.
Timonen and Smith wasnt working very well, but you can just swap Smith with Kukkonen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bney7 View Post
Hatcher +11
Cobourn +10
Jones +7
Vandermeer +6
Smith +2
Timonen -1

It's funny that you mention good +/-'s when 3 of the top 4 d-man on our team are the scapegoats for everything on this board. Kukkonen is a decent defender, lets not go overboard about how much better he is then the others. As a whole they all have their flaws,Timonen and Cobourn are both good. Everyone else has some major flaws.
What is Kukkonen's major flaw? The only thing to even consider is whether he can stay healthy or not....other then that he is the definition of a steady #4/5 stay at home dman with good puck skills to get the puck out of the zone who is not extraordinary at anything, but also does NOT have any major flaws

Quote:
Originally Posted by exlund View Post
Firstly, I want to say that people are too critical after one stinker...threads like these should be made when the team cleary can't win a mjority of its games, not after one bad loss that comes after a string of the best hockey the team has played in a long time. Remember this was a last place team last year...not saying we shouldn't have high expectations given the great job Homer has done but let's manage our expectations a bit. It isn't likey we're going to come near a Cup this year, regardless of what we do. There are going to be some ugly moments.

That said, I think our defense does have some weaknesses that can be addressed with one decent move and some shuffling of what's here already. If you look at it, Timonen is the only guy really in his prime..and while he's a very good player, he's not really a prototypical #1 D man...(he's not Pronger, Lidstrom or Neids) ... if we're going to try and use him in that slot, we need more quality support behind him. I was excited about having Timonen AND Pitkanen before he was dealt...I can't help but think that his exceptional ability to consistently deliver the puck from the d zone to the o zone would be paying big dividends with this team.

The problem is that, right now we depend too much on Timo... I think some of the current supporting players are too young and inexperienced (or just not good enough) while others are too old and slow. If we want to try and elevate to a cup contender during the next two seasons, something has to change. If we want to do this sooner than later (i.e, this year), we would at least need one additional top 4 guy in his prime who can play at both ends... He doesn't have to be a top guy making 5-7 mil...but say, a Tom Preissing who may be available from a struggling Kings team or a Joe Corvo from the Sens who need help up front where we're rich in talent. Those guys may not sound like saviors, but they're mobile guys, with two-way skills and they're in their prime (yet affordable)...they're guys who kind of stuck playing behind deep defensive corps and could jump into a bigger role here... I think the quality depth and experience they would add would fill that hole in our top 4 and help fill the void in our the transition game as well as one on one coverage..and they can put up points. I'd much rather trade a package using assets like Potulny/Ruzicka/Knuble/Jones/Picard + pick(s) for a guy like them versus losing Carter, Giroux or Upshall in a bid for a bigger ticket guy...this kind of move would give us a bridge to help cover the next year or two that we have to wait until we no longer have Hatcher/Smith and Vandy....by then maybe Parent, Picard and/or Bartulis are ready and Coburn is a stud and things are different...

That said we can probably get by without making a move but I wouldn't expect things to get much better...I mean I would definitely pursue ghetting Kukkonen healthy and back in the lineup and look at bringing up Picard/Parent for some looks... but that likely doesn't address the hole that's there in our top 4...

If you read the boards often you would notice that there are a number of us "regulars" on here that have been pointing out major flaws with this team even when they were winning......No one is being critical because of one stinker. This is a good team that has as talented a group of forwards as anyone in the league at the moment, but has some major systemic flaws and could use another dman or two and has struggled against legit competition.

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01-24-2008, 10:26 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
What is Kukkonen's major flaw? The only thing to even consider is whether he can stay healthy or not....other then that he is the definition of a steady #4/5 stay at home dman with good puck skills to get the puck out of the zone who is not extraordinary at anything, but also does NOT have any major flaws
Just watch Kukkonen skate. You think Hatcher is bad?

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01-24-2008, 10:38 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post

If you read the boards often you would notice that there are a number of us "regulars" on here that have been pointing out major flaws with this team even when they were winning......No one is being critical because of one stinker. This is a good team that has as talented a group of forwards as anyone in the league at the moment, but has some major systemic flaws and could use another dman or two and has struggled against legit competition.
agreed. that one stinker showed that we def. had some problems and against a well coached team with players that fit the system, our defense is nearly horrendous. i am not ecpecting a stanley cup here, but i also beleive that snider did not spend all this money to watch his team get knocked out in the first round.

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01-24-2008, 10:40 AM
  #100
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agreed. that one stinker showed that we def. had some problems and against a well coached team with players that fit the system, our defense is nearly horrendous. i am not ecpecting a stanley cup here, but i also beleive that snider did not spend all this money to watch his team get knocked out in the first round.
No, he certainly didnt...they fully intended and want this team to compete this year, which is fine, but they have a few glaring issues to fix and I just havent seen any evidence yet that they either 1) See these issues 2) can fix them or 3) will fix them

Thy are nuts if they think these 6 dmen can compete in the playoffs...

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