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Old
01-30-2008, 03:29 PM
  #26
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Any country not named the United States of America winning an Olympic Gold Medal means absolutely squat to me. Moreover, the Flyers winning the Stanley Cup is vastly more important to me than the United States of America winning and Olympic Gold Medal. I devote most of the year to following the Flyers, a team that comes together for 2 weeks doesn't mean much to me as far as sunken cost goes.

There are bigger things in life than Lord Stanley's Cup, but valuing one sporting competition over another with such moralistic qualities is absolutely ludicrous... not to mention comparing putting on a hockey jersey to putting on camo.

Ponder this one... it's February 2010 and the Flyers are riding high, leading the East by 10 pts and everything is looking peachy. The Olympics happen and Mike Richards is deservedly there... where he blows out his knee, ends his season, and he's never quite the same player again.

That is the problematic in the Olympics... and Sens fans watching Hasek rip his groin in half at the last Olympics playing for the Czechs was pretty awesome, wasn't it?
this is what i was trying to say. same thing happened in torino forsberg, pitkanen, niittymaki, gagne, handzus, johnsson, knuble, hatcher, esche, and kapanen ALL were selected to go over to Europe to play in the olympics, and when they came back, none of them were the same. on the contrary, look at the team that won the stanley cup that year. carolina hurricanes. how many of their players went to the Olympics? A WHOPPING ONE PLAYER, FRANTISEK KABERLE!

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01-30-2008, 06:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Any country not named the United States of America winning an Olympic Gold Medal means absolutely squat to me. Moreover, the Flyers winning the Stanley Cup is vastly more important to me than the United States of America winning and Olympic Gold Medal. I devote most of the year to following the Flyers, a team that comes together for 2 weeks doesn't mean much to me as far as sunken cost goes.

There are bigger things in life than Lord Stanley's Cup, but valuing one sporting competition over another with such moralistic qualities is absolutely ludicrous... not to mention comparing putting on a hockey jersey to putting on camo.

Ponder this one... it's February 2010 and the Flyers are riding high, leading the East by 10 pts and everything is looking peachy. The Olympics happen and Mike Richards is deservedly there... where he blows out his knee, ends his season, and he's never quite the same player again.

That is the problematic in the Olympics... and Sens fans watching Hasek rip his groin in half at the last Olympics playing for the Czechs was pretty awesome, wasn't it?
You are freakin' hysterical. As always, thanks for the laughs.

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01-30-2008, 07:23 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97
You are freakin' hysterical. As always, thanks for the laughs.
What's so funny? I'll go further to say that even my own country winning an olympic medal means as close to squat to me as is humanly possible.

I breathe Flyers and NHL hockey 24/7. These players also dedicate basically year round to their NHL squads, and about 2-3 weeks for their country's team. I care so little about Olympic hockey that i wouldn't give two ***** if they pulled NHL players from the event again. It's an over glorified All Star game with players that are not used to playing with one another

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01-30-2008, 07:28 PM
  #29
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I guess I'm in the minority, but if someone told me either the US would never win another gold medal or the Flyers would never win another Cup in my life time, it would be a hard choice.

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01-30-2008, 07:57 PM
  #30
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I could really care less if the US ever won another Olympic gold medal for hockey. It's not like they will anywhere in the near future. I'd much rather have our players back home resting than playing time zones away with people they never play with anyway.

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01-30-2008, 08:58 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
You are freakin' hysterical. As always, thanks for the laughs.
I don't think there's anything funny there, that's a completely rational and logical argument. What's funny (and sad) is this:

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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
There is no greater honor than representing one's country--be it on a hockey rink or on a battle field.
I know you have a brother that has served... conflating those two things is missing the big picture in an astonishingly massive way.

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01-30-2008, 09:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I guess I'm in the minority, but if someone told me either the US would never win another gold medal or the Flyers would never win another Cup in my life time, it would be a hard choice.
Here's the thing... both things equate to the same exact thing: a sports team winning a sports tournament. Neither has ANY tangible effect on your life other than what enjoyment you get out of it. If America has sunk to the point where we need to refashion our national pride (and patriotism) on a hockey tournament, then we have some pretty massive issues that we need to be paying attention to.

Therefore, viewing them as merely sports tournaments... the team I follow every year for the majority of the year is a vastly more important issue.

Now, one can qualify their enjoyment of the Olympic gold medal differently (and i'm not saying that you're making a value judgment on others the way FF97 is), which is fine and thus makes it an individual decision... to which there is no right answer, just personal preference.

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01-30-2008, 11:10 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I don't think there's anything funny there, that's a completely rational and logical argument. What's funny (and sad) is this:



I know you have a brother that has served... conflating those two things is missing the big picture in an astonishingly massive way.
Clearly, my point went over your head. Serving/representing your country should be considered an honor, if you don't get that, me attempt to explain it further will be futile for both of us.

What I found sooooooo funny was that you were making it all about you. For example saying how I]you[/I] invest all this time watching the Flyers.....whereas what I was saying was from a player's perspective---being honored to be chosen to represent one's country. Again, sorry you didn't get that.

Listen, I won't be happy if any Flyer gets injured during Olympic play either, but they're big boys and it's a choice they have to make. But the bottom line is, they could break a leg walking down their stairs or slipping on ice outside their houses (ala Brian Leetch), we can't protect them from life. Olympic play is good for the sport of hockey and, personally, I am a fan of the sport first and the Flyers second (albeit a very close second).

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01-30-2008, 11:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Here's the thing... both things equate to the same exact thing: a sports team winning a sports tournament. Neither has ANY tangible effect on your life other than what enjoyment you get out of it. If America has sunk to the point where we need to refashion our national pride (and patriotism) on a hockey tournament, then we have some pretty massive issues that we need to be paying attention to.

Therefore, viewing them as merely sports tournaments... the team I follow every year for the majority of the year is a vastly more important issue.

Now, one can qualify their enjoyment of the Olympic gold medal differently (and i'm not saying that you're making a value judgment on others the way FF97 is), which is fine and thus makes it an individual decision... to which there is no right answer, just personal preference.
What the heck are you even talking about with this one? You have no idea what my value are or are not. And for the record, you are the last person on this board who should be questioning anyone's judgment.

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01-30-2008, 11:18 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
What I found sooooooo funny was that you were making it all about you. For example saying how I]you[/I] invest all this time watching the Flyers.....whereas what I was saying was from a player's perspective---being honored to be chosen to represent one's country. Again, sorry you didn't get that.
being a fan is a selfish venture.. it's about getting enjoyment and entertainment out of watching something. there is nothing deeper or greater about professional sports... your team winning a stanley cup, winning a gold medal isn't something you're actively participating... it's a superficial entity that you gain enjoyment out of. thus, all opinion on this matter is a selfish one and about you. it's a value judgment for yourself whether you want the league to participate... do i want NHL'ers in the Olympics more than I want to see healthy NHL teams competing (I like NHL hockey more than Olympic hockey anyway).

i'll give you another vantage point... playing in the Olympics directly risks the investment their employer has put in them. Mike Richards, for example, who you love to give great vestiges of loyalty to the Flyers and all of that. playing in the Olympics risks the best interests of his team... now, I completely buy that players want to, for personal reasons, play in the Olympics... but we're back to the fact that they're make decisions in their own personal interests. from the Flyers - and every other NHL team - perspective, it's far better for them if everyone passes and is ready to go when the playoff stretch comes.

being honored is great... spitting on the logic of the other side of the discussion is ignorant. it's an honor to be good enough to don a NHL jersey...

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01-30-2008, 11:22 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
What the heck are you even talking about with this one? You have no idea what my value are or are not. And for the record, you are the last person on this board who should be questioning anyone's judgment.
this, lady, is a value judgment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Contrary to what many on this board think, there are bigger things in life than Lord Stanley's Cup.
"you don't get it" if you think differently... you're valuing the perspective and labeling it trite and juvenile.

i'm the last person that should be questioning anyone's judgment? whiskey tango foxtrot.

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01-30-2008, 11:35 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
being a fan is a selfish venture.. it's about getting enjoyment and entertainment out of watching something. there is nothing deeper or greater about professional sports... your team winning a stanley cup, winning a gold medal isn't something you're actively participating... it's a superficial entity that you gain enjoyment out of. thus, all opinion on this matter is a selfish one and about you. it's a value judgment for yourself whether you want the league to participate... do i want NHL'ers in the Olympics more than I want to see healthy NHL teams competing (I like NHL hockey more than Olympic hockey anyway).

i'll give you another vantage point... playing in the Olympics directly risks the investment their employer has put in them. Mike Richards, for example, who you love to give great vestiges of loyalty to the Flyers and all of that. playing in the Olympics risks the best interests of his team... now, I completely buy that players want to, for personal reasons, play in the Olympics... but we're back to the fact that they're make decisions in their own personal interests. from the Flyers - and every other NHL team - perspective, it's far better for them if everyone passes and is ready to go when the playoff stretch comes.

being honored is great... spitting on the logic of the other side of the discussion is ignorant. it's an honor to be good enough to don a NHL jersey...
OK, so let me get this straight. Me saying that I want them there is a value judgment (and a poor one apparently), but you saying you don't want them there is not a value judgment and/or selfish? Sorry, but I just ain't following your logic on this one.

As for vested interests and all that jazz, that is not my issue. If the owners don't want them there, that's their battle, not mine. As it stands, they are allowed to participate and thus, if they are chosen, should be honored and should attend.

As usual Jester, you are allowing your pessimism to rear its ugly head. The games are over two years away and already you're getting in a tizzy over injuries. How do you know anyone is even going to get injured?

Lastly, I wonder what a poll of players would say about this issue. I wonder where they would rank the chance to represent their country and win an Olympic gold against a chance at the NHL playoffs and ultimately the Stanley Cup. My guess would be that their answers may surprise you. Unless you're Chelios, going to the Olympics feasibly comes around what? maybe 2-3 times in your career? Yet the chance at the Cup is guaranteed to come around every year. Two other points, last night, after I posted my original opinion, the news was showing a piece of Strahan's interview during media day, he said something to the effect of, "....in a few years no one will remember us, our faces or what we did, which is why we have to be nice to our kids, because that's what it's all about..." 2-I have a friend who is very close with Scott Stevens, to make a long story short, we were talking about him after his jersey was retired, and she told me that she and her husband had just seen him the night before and were congratulating him on the jersey retirement. She told me that Stevens told them "...it was the greatest night of [his] hockey career..." Those types of things are what I'm talking about when I said there are more important things in life than the Stanley Cup. I get that you are young and have yet to experience all that life has to offer, but you need to remember that to the players, playing in the NHL is a job--albeit a pretty darn good job, and yes, a job they should be honored to have, but it is a job nonetheless.

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01-30-2008, 11:43 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
this, lady, is a value judgment:



"you don't get it" if you think differently... you're valuing the perspective and labeling it trite and juvenile.

i'm the last person that should be questioning anyone's judgment? whiskey tango foxtrot.

No, Jester, it is you who is mistaken. There are far more important things in life than winning a Stanley Cup--but as I said above, you may need to experience all that life has to offer to truly know what I mean when I say this. If guaranteeing my kid has a long, happy life means never seeing the Flyers win the Cup then I'd take her health and happiness any day of the week and twice on Sunday. My dad died when I was 15, I would trade another hour with him to never seeing my teams win championships as well. I would also bet me life that if you asked every man that has his name on that Cup what is more important those championships or his family, they'd also pick family.

As for you personally, you constantly pass judgment on others here. Telling myself and others that our views are "ludicrous," etc. Yet you constantly say how this board would be boring without debates. If you think my views are so ludicrous, do us both a favor and put me on your ignore list.

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01-30-2008, 11:45 PM
  #39
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the value judgment was judging those who don't think the NHL should be in the Olympics... not opining on whether or not they should be there. i don't care what side of that issue you or anyone else is on, it's an opinion...

what i find wrong is suggesting that people "don't get it" and their opinion is somehow less valuable because they don't see that there are "bigger things than Lord Stanley's Cup" when you're arguing the respective merits of two sporting events.

I think NASCAR is idiotic, for example... but apparently people like sitting in the sun and drinking all day while cars drive around 'em... whatever floats your boat. I'd rather watch NHL hockey and have a healthy Flyers team than watch NHL players play in the Olympics.

Whether a NHL player wants to play in the Olympics or not is absolutely meaningless to my life and enjoyment of watching hockey... literally meaningless. As of now they can go and do that and that's great, but what's that do for me as a fan of the Philadelphia Flyers? If you want to have great empathy for the desire to play for their international team, good for you.

And here's the larger picture, I'm not against international hockey, I'm not a fan of the Olympic format in the middle of the season. I'm a huge fan of the World Cup of Hockey, which is a better format if done correctly regardless. I think the NHL, NHLPA, and IIHF should devote a ton of resources and effort into establishing that as a serious tournament that takes place every four years like the FIFA World Cup.

However, all that is irrelevant to the issue surrounding whether the NHL should be involved in the Olympics: I don't think it should. I think the Olympic tournament should go back to being an amateur tournament as much as possible... 'cept the IIHF doesn't like that because no one watches it. That doesn't mean I, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't get why the players want to and enjoy playing for Olympic gold... however, at the end of the day it does nothing for me at a personal level... I'd rather watch a Flyers v. Devils game than a USA v. Sweden game on any given night.

And, for the record, I can't believe you of all people just made the "NHL is a job" argument to me after refuting that line of my argument about contract negotiations for so long...

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01-30-2008, 11:50 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
No, Jester, it is you who is mistaken. There are far more important things in life than winning a Stanley Cup--but as I said above, you may need to experience all that life has to offer to truly know what I mean when I say this. If guaranteeing my kid has a long, happy life means never seeing the Flyers win the Cup then I'd take her health and happiness any day of the week and twice on Sunday. My dad died when I was 15, I would trade another hour with him to never seeing my teams win championships as well. I would also bet me life that if you asked every man that has his name on that Cup what is more important those championships or his family, they'd also pick family.

As for you personally, you constantly pass judgment on others here. Telling myself and others that our views are "ludicrous," etc. Yet you constantly say how this board would be boring without debates. If you think my views are so ludicrous, do us both a favor and put me on your ignore list.
you're bringing your kids health and happiness in as a rhetorical tool in a discussion of the Olympics and NHL hockey? gimme a break.

and, once again, you just made a value judgment on my (and everyone else that would rather watch the NHL) opinion... it's irrelevant not because you merely disagree with the point, it's wrong because i'm somehow missing the "larger picture."

here's the larger picture: two hockey events. one in which the players are playing for NHL clubs and competing for the Stanley Cup at the end of the season... the other where teams are determined by their nation of origin. it's the same game, just a different format and under the auspices of a different governing body.

in both cases it's the game of hockey... plain and simple. that's the larger picture.

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01-30-2008, 11:54 PM
  #41
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Jester, as usual, I just scanned your post above and I agree more than you might think. A-I think the Olympics should go back to amateurs in ALL sports; B-the timing of it does stink; C-I'd rather watch the Flyers (although not against the Devils--that just frustrates me) than watch the Olympics--but again, it's good for the sport as a whole. Hopefully it'll bring in new viewers/fans, etc.

As for the "NHL is a job" thing, you are comparing apples and oranges with the two discussion we had, today and a year-plus ago. My point is, that as much as we may want it to be, the NHL is not the be all and end all in these guys lives--which is why I am happy that Preems decided to retire and increase his chances of watching his kids grow up vs. attempting another comeback. I believe the discussion we had over contracts was the possibility that a player may not report to camp on time because he was rumored to have been squabbling over a few hundred thousand dollars. Again, I don't see how the two compare--two completely different discussions.

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01-30-2008, 11:57 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
you're bringing your kids health and happiness in as a rhetorical tool in a discussion of the Olympics and NHL hockey? gimme a break.
and, once again, you just made a value judgment on my (and everyone else that would rather watch the NHL) opinion... it's irrelevant not because you merely disagree with the point, it's wrong because i'm somehow missing the "larger picture."

here's the larger picture: two hockey events. one in which the players are playing for NHL clubs and competing for the Stanley Cup at the end of the season... the other where teams are determined by their nation of origin. it's the same game, just a different format and under the auspices of a different governing body.

in both cases it's the game of hockey... plain and simple. that's the larger picture.

You're questioning me saying "there are more important things in life than Lord Stanley's Cup" but then when I back it up with my reasoning, you say it doesn't relate. That reasoning just doesn't make sense. I think there are more important things in life than the Stanley Cup and **horrors** a hockey game/tournament/playoff series, you apparently do not. Again, we'll never see eye to eye on this one.

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01-31-2008, 12:01 AM
  #43
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i don't want any of them in the olympics, 2010 is arguably our best shot at a cup, gagne, briere, timonen, biron all in their prime, richards carter lupul umberger all turning into really solid forwards, and JVR, claude, and downie in the mix there too? that team would be scary and if those guys are smart enough they'll realize that and turn down the invitation, but I know that won't happen.
I doubt Biron will be our goalie in 2010, Timonen will be 35 then, he is in his prime now. Also there is no definates that Lupul or Carter will definately be here in 2010. And the last half of your post shows that you must be a 12 year old.

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01-31-2008, 12:03 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
You're questioning me saying "there are more important things in life than Lord Stanley's Cup" but then when I back it up with my reasoning, you say it doesn't relate. That reasoning just doesn't make sense. I think there are more important things in life than the Stanley Cup and **horrors** a hockey game/tournament/playoff series, you apparently do not. Again, we'll never see eye to eye on this one.
yes, when we're in a thread talking about Olympic rosters... and discussing the merits of NHL players playing in the Olympics... I fail to see how the health of children is a related piece of rhetorical logic in any fashion.

yes... life and death is more important than the sport of hockey.

no... life and death isn't relevant to a discussion of the Olympics.

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01-31-2008, 12:53 AM
  #45
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Can i please never have to read through a stupid ****ing conversation likening hockey to fighting in a war, or seeing a deceased relative again instead of a Stanley Cup. This **** is so beyond ****ing relevant it just boggles my mind that i wasted 15 minutes making heads or tails out of this stupid conversation. This is a hockey board, we are discussing Olympic vs NHL hockey, how in science's name did we end up on this utterly ******** path of discussing seemingly random mindless bull****?

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01-31-2008, 08:16 AM
  #46
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Can i please never have to read through a stupid ****ing conversation likening hockey to fighting in a war, or seeing a deceased relative again instead of a Stanley Cup. This **** is so beyond ****ing relevant it just boggles my mind that i wasted 15 minutes making heads or tails out of this stupid conversation. This is a hockey board, we are discussing Olympic vs NHL hockey, how in science's name did we end up on this utterly ******** path of discussing seemingly random mindless bull****?
Obviously, you misunderstood what I was trying to convey and for that I apologize. I am also truly sorry that what you perceived I was saying got you so upset that you felt you had no other recourse but to resort to a rant which included name-calling akin to what I hear from pre-teens on an almost daily basis. When I was trying to make my point about Olympic play, it was certainly not my intention to upset you, or any one else, in such a manner.

I find it unsettling when some people get so unnerved about something they read on a hockey message board--especially when my words are the cause.

I honestly hope your day improves.

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01-31-2008, 08:53 AM
  #47
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Can i please never have to read through a stupid ****ing conversation likening hockey to fighting in a war, or seeing a deceased relative again instead of a Stanley Cup. This **** is so beyond ****ing relevant it just boggles my mind that i wasted 15 minutes making heads or tails out of this stupid conversation. This is a hockey board, we are discussing Olympic vs NHL hockey, how in science's name did we end up on this utterly ******** path of discussing seemingly random mindless bull****?
Yeah I don't know how that all evolved. Kind of a waste of time reading that...

Everyone feels differently on the issue. In Canada, for two weeks every 4 years, we are damn proud to be Canadian and cheer on our boys going for gold. If that happens to include Flyers players, I'm even more proud. If they get injured, I would question whether they belong there in the first place (I do already), but it doesn't change the fact that I'll cheer them on and hope for gold.

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01-31-2008, 02:34 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bney7 View Post
I doubt Biron will be our goalie in 2010, Timonen will be 35 then, he is in his prime now. Also there is no definates that Lupul or Carter will definately be here in 2010. And the last half of your post shows that you must be a 12 year old.
What Finnish defensemen do you see bumping him out? THERE ARE ONLY 8 FINNISH DEFENSEMEN IN THE NHL! And coming up to replace him would be...(insert star Finnish defensemen that would somehow bump him out). Oops! Forgot! There isn't anyone! And he is by far the best. Timonen has only been playing in the NHL for 8 seasons, so he does not even nearly have the same amount of wear and tear that a player his age would. Know the player and the circumstances going on! Learn to spell definitely, and why would that be?

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01-31-2008, 04:21 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by rocketRichard18 View Post
By "your", you mean "you're", as in "you are", as in a contraction, such as "they're", not there or their. Here, let me give you an example.
You're as dumb as a rock, but I forgive you for being so inept at spelling, however, they're going to rip you a new *******.

In comparison...
Your comment was very intelligent...not!

Now both in the same sentence...
This probably should have been your last post, as you're are not intelligent enough to be in the company of us Flyers fans.

Hope you better understand the English language after this lesson.
"YOUR" a fool to seriously think that Lupul, Downie, Richards, and Coburn have a chance of make it over guys like Heatley, Spezza, Getzlaf, Boyle and Phaneuf. Unless Canada is sending it's Secondary team, those guy's don't have a chance in hell of making it.( Unless Lupul turns into a 50 goal scorer by than, and Downie wins the Lady Bing, I don't see it happening. And change "YOUR" user name, my god you look rediculous) your American get A grip, it should say Pat Lafontaine123 or something.

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01-31-2008, 04:43 PM
  #50
claude boivin lives
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richmoose View Post
"YOUR" a fool to seriously think that Lupul, Downie, Richards, and Coburn have a chance of make it over guys like Heatley, Spezza, Getzlaf, Boyle and Phaneuf. Unless Canada is sending it's Secondary team, those guy's don't have a chance in hell of making it.( Unless Lupul turns into a 50 goal scorer by than, and Downie wins the Lady Bing, I don't see it happening. And change "YOUR" user name, my god you look rediculous) your American get A grip, it should say Pat Lafontaine123 or something.
The first "YOUR" you used was improper. It's the Lady "Byng", not the Lady "BING." And you spelled "ridiculous" wrong.

Quote:
my god you look rediculous
Unfortunately, you are the one who looks ridiculous. Go back to school for a few years before you come back and post here. While you're there, maybe you can take a class on common sense. Hopefully, you'll learn that it's only natural for fans of a team to support the players on it and root for them to make it to the Olympics. You may also learn that attempting to ridicule those fans for doing so is a waste of both your time and theirs. Good luck to you.

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