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Is it in our interest to make a splash at the trade deadline?

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Old
01-28-2008, 08:59 PM
  #26
General Veers
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You may think making the 8th spot only to get trounced by the Wings is a bad thing, but it's not. It builds character. I promise you no one in the locker room is thinking "'09 baby". They want to win games now.
As soon as we're mathematically eliminated (or multiple vets are moved) I'll join in with you guys in gearing up for next season.

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01-28-2008, 09:07 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Stemps View Post
I know the chances of crawling back into the playoff run is slim. but its still possible and as long as its possible, im pushing for it. It just bugs me when people keep saying, your not going to do it, because you dont know.
Every blues fan has that feeling like, "maybe the blues could just pull it off". Its not that we aren't optimistic so much as we are wary of saying such a bold statement.

I would be the first to say, "we're still in it!!", but the reality is that our team isn't looking too good.

I would be more excited if JD makes some good decisions in the offseason and we truly become contenders next year. Even if that means we are sellers this year.

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01-28-2008, 09:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by jsb6wc22 View Post
Every blues fan has that feeling like, "maybe the blues could just pull it off". Its not that we aren't optimistic so much as we are wary of saying such a bold statement.

I would be the first to say, "we're still in it!!", but the reality is that our team isn't looking too good.

I would be more excited if JD makes some good decisions in the offseason and we truly become contenders next year. Even if that means we are sellers this year.
There's nothing bold about saying it's possible. Bold would be saying we're going to pass the Wings for the Central lead. (Actually, that may be defined as "nuts.")

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01-28-2008, 09:34 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by jsb6wc22 View Post
I would be the first to say, "we're still in it!!", but the reality is that our team isn't looking too good.
It's even more than this. The team could kick ass in the remaining 34 games and still not make it. They have to kick ass and then kick some more ass AND get lucky.

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Originally Posted by DarthVTEC View Post
There's nothing bold about saying it's possible. Bold would be saying we're going to pass the Wings for the Central lead. (Actually, that may be defined as "nuts.")
You really think that saying a team that has 22 wins in 48 games so far will suddenly win the same number in just 34 games isn't bold? Even more than that, they could win that many and STILL not get in. As a matter of fact, the 22 win goal noted by IB would only put the Blues at 95 points, which was out of the playoffs last season in the West. By my calculations and some fudging with predictions, 95 would make the playoffs this year. The bottom spot will be something like 91-94 most likely.

Could the Blues do it? Of course. Detroit could also completely bomb out and not even make the playoffs. It's really ridiculous to predict that. Nobody is going to fault you for HOPING something like that, or cheering for it to happen; but holding out for it or pretending like there's a good chance is a pipedream.

I'll keep on rooting for them to make the playoffs, but you have to realize that from a management perspective, the Blues are sellers. If you were the GM, you'd have to play it the same way. That's the issue here. Some people around here WANT the Blues to totally bomb and get a really high pick. You don't have to agree with them - I certainly don't. But a 5-10 (edited from "top-ten") pick is actually more likely for the Blues than making the playoffs this season.


Last edited by rumrokh: 01-28-2008 at 09:48 PM.
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Old
01-28-2008, 11:29 PM
  #30
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Tell me why can't we make the trades everyone is talking about and still make a run? I mean, Legace has held this team together. He could go on a Nabokov type run and start all 34 games. If he is as hot as he was in the All Star game, winning 22 games becomes quite possible and quite easy. But like it was stated, Stemper, Backes, A.Mac, and many others would have to step up. DarthVTEC, I love your post when you talk about no one in the locker room is thinking, 2009. They do want to win now. But we do need a step up in leadership. It would be nice to see someone step up and say, we freaking suck. because they have sucked the past 10 games. Legace hasn't been Legace. Near 0 offensive productivity. What I'm saying is, I am not going to give up, I want us to sell, but we can still make a run if we do. I guess the real question is, how bad do the guys in the locker room want it?

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01-28-2008, 11:53 PM
  #31
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Question: How much are you willing to sell to maybe have a shot at the playoffs this year? Is it worth Palushaj and Fairchild? Bishop? Cole? Eller? Berglund? Oshie? A 1st this year? At what point do the words, "that's too much" come up when you're shopping for someone to improve the team this year?

-- Even if Legace starts 34 in a row, is the defense going to magically pull together and help him keep teams to 2 goals a night?
-- Let's say the Blues only need 44 points in the final 34 games; if they don't win 22 of them, then they need to go 21-11-2 ... or 20-10-4 ... or 19-9-6.
-- Those wins are very likely going to have to come in regulation, seeing as how we're 1-7 after regulation.
-- We only have 7 points in the 26 games we didn't win.
-- The best case scenario for us is that we only have to go 19-11-4 and get 92 points [what Colorado is on pace for] - and that we'll win all necessary tiebreakers. See how many games we have to play on the road, what our schedule is on the road, and that 9-game road swing in March; is getting 42 points really that feasible?

The playoffs were a great goal. Unfortunately, that goal is quickly slipping out of reach. This franchise's long-term goal isn't to make the 2008 playoffs. It's to win a Cup, and this is not the year to start selling pieces of the future for a shot at the playoffs and a very likely 1st-round exit.

In 2 weeks, we could be on a 6-game winning streak and the outlook has changed. That's in 2 weeks, and I'm more than willing to revisit things if the situation improves ... but right now, it's not looking good - and I'm certainly not willing to mortgage the future for a longshot chance at maybe making the playoffs this year.

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01-28-2008, 11:54 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemps View Post
Tell me why can't we make the trades everyone is talking about and still make a run? I mean, Legace has held this team together. He could go on a Nabokov type run and start all 34 games. If he is as hot as he was in the All Star game, winning 22 games becomes quite possible and quite easy. But like it was stated, Stemper, Backes, A.Mac, and many others would have to step up. DarthVTEC, I love your post when you talk about no one in the locker room is thinking, 2009. They do want to win now. But we do need a step up in leadership. It would be nice to see someone step up and say, we freaking suck. because they have sucked the past 10 games. Legace hasn't been Legace. Near 0 offensive productivity. What I'm saying is, I am not going to give up, I want us to sell, but we can still make a run if we do. I guess the real question is, how bad do the guys in the locker room want it?
Legace is NOT going to ply every game the rest of the way. There are 6 back to back games, plus the 20 games in 36 days in there as well. This team will be tired, hurting and most likely out of it.

Secondly, where will this leadership come from? Tkachuk, no. Mayers, no. Jackman, not likely. Legace is too happy go lucky. Murray might have to pull a Savard to spark any sort of inspired play from them.

Sell at the deadline, package the picks for a deep draft, and play the youth as the season comes to a close.

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01-28-2008, 11:57 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Question: How much are you willing to sell to maybe have a shot at the playoffs this year? Is it worth Palushaj and Fairchild? Bishop? Cole? Eller? Berglund? Oshie? A 1st this year? At what point do the words, "that's too much" come up when you're shopping for someone to improve the team this year?

-- Even if Legace starts 34 in a row, is the defense going to magically pull together and help him keep teams to 2 goals a night?
-- Let's say the Blues only need 44 points in the final 34 games; if they don't win 22 of them, then they need to go 21-11-2 ... or 20-10-4 ... or 19-9-6.
-- Those wins are very likely going to have to come in regulation, seeing as how we're 1-7 after regulation.
-- We only have 7 points in the 26 games we didn't win.
-- The best case scenario for us is that we only have to go 19-11-4 and get 92 points [what Colorado is on pace for] - and that we'll win all necessary tiebreakers. See how many games we have to play on the road, what our schedule is on the road, and that 9-game road swing in March; is getting 42 points really that feasible?

The playoffs were a great goal. Unfortunately, that goal is quickly slipping out of reach. This franchise's long-term goal isn't to make the 2008 playoffs. It's to win a Cup, and this is not the year to start selling pieces of the future for a shot at the playoffs and a very likely 1st-round exit.

In 2 weeks, we could be on a 6-game winning streak and the outlook has changed. That's in 2 weeks, and I'm more than willing to revisit things if the situation improves ... but right now, it's not looking good - and I'm certainly not willing to mortgage the future for a longshot chance at maybe making the playoffs this year.
Should've just erased my post and quoted this.

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01-29-2008, 12:05 AM
  #34
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I think it far more likely that the Blues trade one or more roster players for an upgrade and don't really come out as sellers. A team might give quite a bit for a Jackman looking at a playoff run. Something people really dont seem to be thinking about. If you add Oshie next season (which by all accounts we will), and you say Berglund surprises in camp (he did fairly well last year as I recall). Where do you put all these guys?

Kariya - Andy Mac - Boyes
Stempniak - Tkachuk - Backes
Perron - Mcclement - Mayers
King-Johnson-Hinote

Porter - Lemmy - Oshie - Berglund ?

As much as I like him, a guy like Mcclement may become expendable if he can land you an impact player, either an offensive defenseman or another forward.

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01-29-2008, 12:09 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Question: How much are you willing to sell to maybe have a shot at the playoffs this year? Is it worth Palushaj and Fairchild? Bishop? Cole? Eller? Berglund? Oshie? A 1st this year? At what point do the words, "that's too much" come up when you're shopping for someone to improve the team this year?

-- Even if Legace starts 34 in a row, is the defense going to magically pull together and help him keep teams to 2 goals a night?
-- Let's say the Blues only need 44 points in the final 34 games; if they don't win 22 of them, then they need to go 21-11-2 ... or 20-10-4 ... or 19-9-6.
-- Those wins are very likely going to have to come in regulation, seeing as how we're 1-7 after regulation.
-- We only have 7 points in the 26 games we didn't win.
-- The best case scenario for us is that we only have to go 19-11-4 and get 92 points [what Colorado is on pace for] - and that we'll win all necessary tiebreakers. See how many games we have to play on the road, what our schedule is on the road, and that 9-game road swing in March; is getting 42 points really that feasible?

The playoffs were a great goal. Unfortunately, that goal is quickly slipping out of reach. This franchise's long-term goal isn't to make the 2008 playoffs. It's to win a Cup, and this is not the year to start selling pieces of the future for a shot at the playoffs and a very likely 1st-round exit.

In 2 weeks, we could be on a 6-game winning streak and the outlook has changed. That's in 2 weeks, and I'm more than willing to revisit things if the situation improves ... but right now, it's not looking good - and I'm certainly not willing to mortgage the future for a longshot chance at maybe making the playoffs this year.

I think that if the Blues make any "buyer" type deals they will be for players who they see as a part of our future as well (either they have years left or we will be committed to locking them up by offering whatever it takes). To answer your question, I'd move the following young parts: Schwarz, Junland, McClement, Kana, Barriball, Woywitka, 2nd round pick, 3rd round pick, and of course our friend Christian Backman. If the Blues could package those parts to bring back something that would help, I'm all for it. If not, I wouldn't give up anything of more value for this year. None of those prospects and young players should be considered core pieces for our future. We can part with the high picks because we have 2 in each of those rounds anyway.

I think the more likely scenario is being "sellers" and if that is the case, Jackman needs to be traded. Salvador, I'd hang onto. It's fun to focus on the youth movement, but Salvador would be the perfect old-timer to keep around. He's a steady player, a pillar in the community, and a guy who has worn the Blue Note proudly for a long time now.

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Old
01-29-2008, 12:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DarthVTEC View Post
What if the teams ahead of us don't keep the same pace? We could get back in the race easily! Are we in a bad streak? Yes. Do we have questionable leadership? Yes. Are we going to be sellers? It certainly looks like it. But the fact is this: We are 5 points out of the playoffs with just under HALF THE SEASON to go. We could get back to our over-achieving ways and if a team or two ahead of us hits a rough stretch we could pass them. I'm not saying I'm counting on the postseason, I'm not saying go all out trade-wise to get there. Even if we have no chance at the playoffs, our kids would gain a lot more from at least trying to get there, rather than packing it in and going through the motions.
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
It's even more than this. The team could kick ass in the remaining 34 games and still not make it. They have to kick ass and then kick some more ass AND get lucky.



You really think that saying a team that has 22 wins in 48 games so far will suddenly win the same number in just 34 games isn't bold? Even more than that, they could win that many and STILL not get in. As a matter of fact, the 22 win goal noted by IB would only put the Blues at 95 points, which was out of the playoffs last season in the West. By my calculations and some fudging with predictions, 95 would make the playoffs this year. The bottom spot will be something like 91-94 most likely.

Could the Blues do it? Of course. Detroit could also completely bomb out and not even make the playoffs. It's really ridiculous to predict that. Nobody is going to fault you for HOPING something like that, or cheering for it to happen; but holding out for it or pretending like there's a good chance is a pipedream.

I'll keep on rooting for them to make the playoffs, but you have to realize that from a management perspective, the Blues are sellers. If you were the GM, you'd have to play it the same way. That's the issue here. Some people around here WANT the Blues to totally bomb and get a really high pick. You don't have to agree with them - I certainly don't. But a 5-10 (edited from "top-ten") pick is actually more likely for the Blues than making the playoffs this season.
No pipedream involved.

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01-29-2008, 12:27 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemps View Post
Tell me why can't we make the trades everyone is talking about and still make a run? I mean, Legace has held this team together. He could go on a Nabokov type run and start all 34 games. If he is as hot as he was in the All Star game, winning 22 games becomes quite possible and quite easy. But like it was stated, Stemper, Backes, A.Mac, and many others would have to step up. DarthVTEC, I love your post when you talk about no one in the locker room is thinking, 2009. They do want to win now. But we do need a step up in leadership. It would be nice to see someone step up and say, we freaking suck. because they have sucked the past 10 games. Legace hasn't been Legace. Near 0 offensive productivity. What I'm saying is, I am not going to give up, I want us to sell, but we can still make a run if we do. I guess the real question is, how bad do the guys in the locker room want it?
Kelly Chase was on Sports Sunday with Steve Savard yesterday (this has been mentioned elsewhere today) and he said exactly what you guys have been saying, our leadership isn't stepping up in this time of bad play. But he also said something along the lines of,"I don't know how many more times Walt can speak up." So now what? One of the leaders we've been ripping recently has been speaking up often and Chaser is saying it's not getting through. So do we find the kids just as culpable? It seems so...

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01-29-2008, 12:34 AM
  #38
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Could we possibly both buy and sell at the same time? First I think you figure which D-man has the chance at coming back next year and dealing the other...but in this deal could we not be either a seller or buyer...how about breaking even. Who really knows what this d-man could bring back. Maybe a player for player trade. If we add a forward would we not have to move a forward? I will say this, if we acquire an NHL ready player, then that person would have to be an upgrade over what we already have. What about a series of buying and selling type trades?

Now lets say none of that work that way. So we trade a defender and get picks and/or prospects. Is that really a huge sell, especially if we are freeing up a spot for a more deserving player?

I just don't think the trades this year are going to be so clearly one way or the other(assuming they happen). Also, the org has to continue to put butts in the seats, so it can't look as though they are "selling".

Comments?

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01-29-2008, 12:36 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Question: How much are you willing to sell to maybe have a shot at the playoffs this year? Is it worth Palushaj and Fairchild? Bishop? Cole? Eller? Berglund? Oshie? A 1st this year? At what point do the words, "that's too much" come up when you're shopping for someone to improve the team this year?

-- Even if Legace starts 34 in a row, is the defense going to magically pull together and help him keep teams to 2 goals a night?
-- Let's say the Blues only need 44 points in the final 34 games; if they don't win 22 of them, then they need to go 21-11-2 ... or 20-10-4 ... or 19-9-6.
-- Those wins are very likely going to have to come in regulation, seeing as how we're 1-7 after regulation.
-- We only have 7 points in the 26 games we didn't win.
-- The best case scenario for us is that we only have to go 19-11-4 and get 92 points [what Colorado is on pace for] - and that we'll win all necessary tiebreakers. See how many games we have to play on the road, what our schedule is on the road, and that 9-game road swing in March; is getting 42 points really that feasible?

The playoffs were a great goal. Unfortunately, that goal is quickly slipping out of reach. This franchise's long-term goal isn't to make the 2008 playoffs. It's to win a Cup, and this is not the year to start selling pieces of the future for a shot at the playoffs and a very likely 1st-round exit.

In 2 weeks, we could be on a 6-game winning streak and the outlook has changed. That's in 2 weeks, and I'm more than willing to revisit things if the situation improves ... but right now, it's not looking good - and I'm certainly not willing to mortgage the future for a longshot chance at maybe making the playoffs this year.
No IB, it's not feasible. But it is possible, and a pro athlete has to take that approach. I'm going to take that approach too. Again, we're not world-beaters, but we're also not the Kings.

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01-29-2008, 02:57 AM
  #40
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I don't think Chase implied that Tkachuk is speaking up and not getting through or that he speaks up so often that he's not heard anymore. If anything, I think he was suggesting that Tkachuk needs to pick up his play, too, so he can't be the guy to call other people out in this situation.

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01-29-2008, 08:07 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Yeah, so sad that we won't make the playoffs only to lose to Detroit in the 1st round.
I'm not going to get into the larger issue of this debate but I do have to take exception to this statement.

Does anybody here honestly believe that Detroit is capable of(much less the favorite going in) winning a 7 game series against ANYBODY after their showings the last 3 years?

You can say a lot of good things about Detroit; but they are simply not built to win a short series. Everybody knows how to handle Detrroit once the PO's start.

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01-29-2008, 08:08 AM
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I'd like to see Murray maybe try sticking with a lineup for a few weeks and giving the players a chance to build some chemistry instead of mixing it up every night.




Truer words were never spoken, my friend...

At the beginning of the season, how often were players rotating into and out of the lineup?

P_B


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01-29-2008, 08:20 AM
  #43
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Taking a look at the teams in the central division.

Columbus - 56 pts, we have 3 games in hand and 3 more vs the Jackets. We are 2-3 against the Jackets this season, can pass them if we beat them.

Nashville - 55 pts, 2 games in hand, 3 vs the preds. 3-2 on the season. Another team we beat we pass.

Chicago - 50pts, 2 games in hand, 3 to go. 2-3 vs the Hawks. Beat them to keep them down.

Odds are that two teams make it from the Central. Those are the three teams we need to beat if we hope to get a playoff spot.

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01-29-2008, 09:06 AM
  #44
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You may think making the 8th spot only to get trounced by the Wings is a bad thing, but it's not. It builds character. I promise you no one in the locker room is thinking "'09 baby". They want to win games now.
As soon as we're mathematically eliminated (or multiple vets are moved) I'll join in with you guys in gearing up for next season.
I never said that anyone in the locker room or management is thinking 09...

Us as fans should have never got our hopes us so high these last 5 months...I'm just saying we all, as fans, should have our sites on 2009.

I agree it helps players like EJ and Perron to play in the playoffs.

But one more year of not making the playoffs to get a top 10 pick that could help us in a Cup run in 4-5 years and beyond...is well worth it.

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01-29-2008, 09:17 AM
  #45
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I'm not going to get into the larger issue of this debate but I do have to take exception to this statement.

Does anybody here honestly believe that Detroit is capable of(much less the favorite going in) winning a 7 game series against ANYBODY after their showings the last 3 years?

You can say a lot of good things about Detroit; but they are simply not built to win a short series. Everybody knows how to handle Detrroit once the PO's start.
You bring up the last 3 seasons. But they are not the same team from 3 years ago, let alone last year.

And considering they were one game away from playing Ottawa from the Stanley Cup and we are the team we are now...which is playing poor hockey as of late.

Yeah, I can honestly say the Red Wings are very capable of beating a lot of teams in the playoffs...especially us.

Remember this, you bring up the last 3 years that the Red Wings didn't do much in the playoffs.

Well, the Blues current goalie was the main reason for the 2006 #1 Seed Red Wings losing to the 8th seeded Oilers.

And who is to say we do play Detroit..I was just bringing up an example. That is if we are lucky enough to play the Red Wings...What if we get the Ducks in the 1st round?

Still like our chances in April if we get there?

Anything could happen, but very VERY unlikely with this current team.

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01-29-2008, 09:21 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Stemps View Post
At the beginning of the season, you could have asked any fan or any player is we were playoff ready, 99.99% of their answers would have been yes. If you asked them if they thought we were going to make the playoffs, again, yes. So it is kind of sad that chances are, due to poor decisions but Coach Murray and poor play by players, were not going to make it. Yeah, its kind of sad.
According to our poll here, only 51% expected us to make the playoffs. 49% predicted us to be about where we are - the outside looking in.

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01-29-2008, 09:43 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DarthVTEC View Post
No IB, it's not feasible. But it is possible, and a pro athlete has to take that approach. I'm going to take that approach too. Again, we're not world-beaters, but we're also not the Kings.
I'm not saying we should be making phone calls and having a fire sale starting today, but we can't take the stance of, "Maybe we can overcome all these huge obstacles and beat some really big odds, and maybe we can get in the playoffs, and maybe we can go on a run like Edmonton did in 2006 - and if we did, THAT WOULD BE REALLY GREAT! BUY, BUY, BUY!!!"

Between now and a week before the trade deadline, this is our schedule:
-- at Toronto
-- Anaheim
-- Colorado
-- Tampa Bay
-- at Dallas
-- Minnesota
-- Los Angeles
-- at Colorado
-- at Nashville
-- Columbus

10 games. On the presumption that we need 44 points in the final 34 games, we need 13 points to stay on pace. If we can't go 6-3-1 in the next 10 games, then it's going to get REALLY tough to get over 31 points in the final 24 games [that's going better than 15-8-1].

One other thing I alluded to earlier, but didn't really discuss: tiebreakers. Right now, we have 22 wins; everyone else above us has at least 25. Getting just one point in a game ultimately isn't going to cut it for us - we're going to have to win and get the full 2 points most nights so we can at least have a shot at getting the upper hand on the first tiebreaker. We probably need to go 20-10-4 or better, because 41 wins likely isn't going to cut it.

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01-29-2008, 03:50 PM
  #48
General Veers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
I'm not saying we should be making phone calls and having a fire sale starting today, but we can't take the stance of, "Maybe we can overcome all these huge obstacles and beat some really big odds, and maybe we can get in the playoffs, and maybe we can go on a run like Edmonton did in 2006 - and if we did, THAT WOULD BE REALLY GREAT! BUY, BUY, BUY!!!"

Between now and a week before the trade deadline, this is our schedule:
-- at Toronto
-- Anaheim
-- Colorado
-- Tampa Bay
-- at Dallas
-- Minnesota
-- Los Angeles
-- at Colorado
-- at Nashville
-- Columbus

10 games. On the presumption that we need 44 points in the final 34 games, we need 13 points to stay on pace. If we can't go 6-3-1 in the next 10 games, then it's going to get REALLY tough to get over 31 points in the final 24 games [that's going better than 15-8-1].

One other thing I alluded to earlier, but didn't really discuss: tiebreakers. Right now, we have 22 wins; everyone else above us has at least 25. Getting just one point in a game ultimately isn't going to cut it for us - we're going to have to win and get the full 2 points most nights so we can at least have a shot at getting the upper hand on the first tiebreaker. We probably need to go 20-10-4 or better, because 41 wins likely isn't going to cut it.
Thanks for using all this logic and reason IB, it does wonders for keeping my homerism in remission!

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01-29-2008, 04:00 PM
  #49
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I'm zeroed in on those two games against Colorado, the game against Columbus, and the game against Nashville. 4 of the 10 games before the deadline will be against teams that are only 5 points of us or less. Of these important next 10 games, those 4 will go a long way in determining what we do. Tonight's game is darn near a must win as well. We need to end the losing streak, and Toronto is a team that we should be able to handle.

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Old
01-29-2008, 07:30 PM
  #50
rocketpop
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Sell, sell, sell.

As I mentioned in another thread, we've picked up Oshie, Berglund, and Perron all with later first round picks. I'd love to get a couple more picks this year, and I'd really like to get someone in the top 10-12.

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