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Idea: How To Fix The Reffing

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Old
01-27-2004, 12:41 PM
  #26
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Game management is EXACTLY what is WRONG with the officiating in this league. Officials should have absolutely no control of the game. They should look at each individual play seperately and determine whether or not it's an infraction. If it is, he should call it no matter the situation. It shouldn't matter if there are 90 seconds left in a one goal game. It shouldn't matter if there are already 3 players for one team in the box. So, untill you find us in the rule book where it says that game management is the officials job, we'll all continue to think that you're full of it because the only job of the official is to call the rules written in the rule book.

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01-27-2004, 03:05 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
I know exactly what game management is. IMO the games aren't being managed particularly well. It's called consistency and the players knowing exactly what they can do and can't do on the ice. If you're going to let them play, let them play, but the whole game not just the third and OT. If you're going to call every infraction, no matter how small, do it in the first, second, third and OT. Is that too hard to understand?
You say you know Game Management, yet what you described is not it.

What you described is a referee having no feel for the emotion of the game...basically asking for a robot who is not capable of managing the game, but only able to manage its own opinions and judgment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
Really, IMO one ref should stay between the blue lines and only call the neutral zone infractions. The other ref skates the entire length of the ice. And call the infractions in the offensive zones. That way call might be a little more consistent. The neutral zone refs all not allow to make call except for majors in the offensive zone.
This is horrible for the development of the referee in the neutral zone. He isn't learning much being limited to the neutral zone.

Plus, a reason for the 2-referee system is to take away part of the skating workload from the one-referee system, so games can have referees who are not physically exhausted near the end of the game, and are less "burnt out" near the end of the season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
the only job of the official is to call the rules written in the rule book.
Yet another person who doesn't understand that the rules in the book are written to give the referee power of judgment.

The book might describe what the penalties are, but somebody needs to decide whether or not what happens on the ice fits any of those descriptions....that person being the referee.

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Old
01-27-2004, 04:13 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
You say you know Game Management, yet what you described is not it.

What you described is a referee having no feel for the emotion of the game...basically asking for a robot who is not capable of managing the game, but only able to manage its own opinions and judgment.
I never said I was describing game management. I was saying that calling a game consistently from beginning to end should be the priority, not game management. Obviously professional judgment is the priority, but the same judgement should apply to the entire game, from beginning to end, not just when the ref sees fit. NHL reffing is akin to the WWF, where the ref appears to have his back turned depending on the situation and timing of the game. It's a friggen joke.

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01-27-2004, 04:18 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Yet another person who doesn't understand that the rules in the book are written to give the referee power of judgment.

The book might describe what the penalties are, but somebody needs to decide whether or not what happens on the ice fits any of those descriptions....that person being the referee.
If I don't understand that then why did I just say that a ref's job is determine whether or not something is an infraction? If you'd actually read what I said then you'd see that I get that quite well.

Now, let's talk about what you don't get. You don't get that it's not a refs job to determine WHEN to call the rulebook. You don't get that a penalty late in the 3rd is no different than a penalty in the middle of the 1st. You don't get that a penalty when a team is already 2 men down is the same as a penalty when both teams are at even strength. These are the things that fall under 'game management' and these are the things that are ruining the sport.

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01-27-2004, 04:43 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Unfortunately you still do not understand that the rules are subject to the referees' judgment. That is what officiating is.
Officiating is calling the game by the book which is what everyone wants, not changing calls by period, by the offender, where it is on the ice, by the score etc.

Unfortunately, you dont seem to understand that.

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Old
01-27-2004, 04:46 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
It's called Game Management. I have explained it many times here, and nobody seems to want to understand it, so I will not explain it again. If you want to know what Game Management is, contact your local minor hockey association to find out when their next officiating clinic is.
The players disagree with that so are you saying they dont understand it? Talking down really doesnt help your cause.

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01-27-2004, 05:31 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Certainly it is annoying reading all sorts of homer posts and the like. But again, it doesn't take away from the original point of this thread that there is an obvious problem with the officiating. Do you agree there or disagree?
Yes, I do agree that the quality of officiating can be improved. (Need to note that simply getting "better refs" is not the answer, IMO.)

Where I depart from you and others is in the level of this problem.

Likewise, I personally have a large issue with "Big Brother in the Skybox" calling the games. IMO, one can make significant strides in improving the quality of officiating with modest changes.

Finally, and separately, none of this will ever address the perceived injustices that a few persecuted :p fans feel necessary to air here ad neaseum, er, nightly. That's their right, and I acknowledge as much. Likewise, it's my right to politely suggest that they toughen up a bit and accept that life (and officiating) is sometimes unfair. (And poor officiating is a convenient, built-in excuse for a few fans when the hometeam loses. Personally, I've been watching the game forever, and my team has never lost or won a game because of a ref. That's too easy a way to deflect responsibility. I recognize that you have no stated team bias in this discussion; I'm speaking in broader terms here.)

I have suggested to fellow-moderators that a separate "Ref-Bashing Complaint Board" is in order, but I'm going to have to do more lobbying before that gets consideration. :p


Last edited by Trottier: 01-27-2004 at 05:40 PM.
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01-27-2004, 05:53 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volchenkov
Its actually a rather simple idea. You take the officials off the ice. You have 4 officials with a whole bunch of TVs, and when any of them see a penalty, they signal the linesman on the ice, who raises his hand and blows the whistle. This way you can have guys who are fat and can't skate and its much easier to train refs. Additionally, its easier to see things when you can see the whole ice. To make sure that nothing gets missed, you keep one ref on the ice as well.
What is so bad about trying harder to make sure the calls are correct. Let's use technology as best we can. I don't get how human error on the parts of refs is so acceptable...the ref should be INVISIBLE to the game - only responding to true infractions in the rules. The rules should be what maintains the games integrity...

Some things will inevitably fall into "judgement calls" but it seems to me that the more we can eliminate those situations the better off the sport is.

As for NHL officiatiing...i don't think it is any worse than other sports.

I think the NHL has marketing problems with the sport and thus everything that can be pointed at as the problem has been pointed at...officiating is an easy target.

If we want the NHL to be great for fans then return to the rules that spawned the growth of interest...late 80's early 90's. Remove the instigator rule... (keep the goalie pad rules were just becoming issues back then.)

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Old
01-27-2004, 05:59 PM
  #34
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Game Management refereeing techniques work well, for a while. Starting from an ideal of EVERYTHING called refereeing, using game management works EXTREMELY well (in fact, it should be used). The problem is the gradual errosion of standards that occurs with game management. As such, the only way out is to, periodically, go to calling EVERYTHING for a season or 2, and get back to everything is called position, where you then go back to game management. But game management from now to eternity is just going to make things worse and worse.

Unfortunately, since I don't think Van is some "crazy" official, but a normal official, who has had normal instruction, it will not be easy to get officials to call EVERYTHING for a while.

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Old
01-27-2004, 06:28 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Finally, and separately, none of this will ever address the perceived injustices that a few persecuted :p fans feel necessary to air here ad neaseum, er, nightly. That's their right, and I acknowledge as much. Likewise, it's my right to politely suggest that they toughen up a bit and accept that life (and officiating) is sometimes unfair. (And poor officiating is a convenient, built-in excuse for a few fans when the hometeam loses. Personally, I've been watching the game forever, and my team has never lost or won a game because of a ref. That's too easy a way to deflect responsibility. I recognize that you have no stated team bias in this discussion; I'm speaking in broader terms here.)
Trotts, you're my hero!

~Crazed.

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Old
01-27-2004, 06:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Personally, I've been watching the game forever, and my team has never lost or won a game because of a ref. That's too easy a way to deflect responsibility. I recognize that you have no stated team bias in this discussion; I'm speaking in broader terms here.)
You may have never lost a game, but you certainly won a cup on a ref's poor decision. Nystrom was offside :p

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01-27-2004, 06:48 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
You may have never lost a game, but you certainly won a cup on a ref's poor decision. Nystrom was offside :p
Touche'! :p

That reference though really does being up my point. No denying that NYI got a clear huge break on a bad non-call. But, as large as that moment was in the game, Philly still had the rest of the game to win it. Conversely, NYI still had to take advantage of that fortunate break.

As far as calls go, that one was as a infamous as they come. If the HF board existed back in that time, it would short-circuited from complaints for sure! :p

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01-27-2004, 07:03 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
For those who know Game Management and don't like it....lets hear what you would do, and how you would do it......without comparing to the way other sports are officiated. What do you think would suit hockey better than the way the current system is?
Call the game according to the rulebook, at all time. Regardless of the period, regardless of the score, regardless if a team is already killing a penalty (or even killing a 2-man penalty), regardless if I have already given that team 13 penalties.

It's a simple concept, really. Much more fair than game management and will pay off eventually because players will learn there are rules and there are consequences.

Game management is hurting hockey's credibility greatly.

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01-27-2004, 08:46 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Game management is hurting hockey's credibility greatly.
Game Management has always...always been the concept of officiating in hockey. By your logic, hockey's credibility has been in question since the late 1800's.

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01-27-2004, 08:49 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Game Management has always...always been the concept of officiating in hockey. By your logic, hockey's credibility has been in question since the late 1800's.
You said it. There's a reason why many Americans see hockey in the same light as tractor pulls and the roller derby. Like I said before, game management is akin to WWF refereeing.

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01-27-2004, 08:58 PM
  #41
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Here's how you fix the reffing-

If a single bad or missed call occurs during a game then the referee guilty of the bad/missed call is taken out of the rink and has his kneecaps shot out

then they are beaten into submission with a fish




on a serious note, im tired of seeing calls not being called in the 3rd when your team is up by 4+ goals, that would've been called in the 1st when the score was 0-0

it makes no sense....make the right call and call it consistently

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01-27-2004, 08:59 PM
  #42
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My dad is a huge sports fan and can't stand watching hockey because of the officiating....

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01-27-2004, 09:49 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
It's not disagreeing with me, they're disagreeing with those who created the fundamentals of hockey officiating, and a lot of those people who made the system were former elite hockey players..
Yes, it is disagreeing with the author of The Fundamentals of Hockey Officiating - David Koresh... The modern ref is the brainwashed follower... merely a victim... :sarcastic:

You make it sound like there is course material that teaches Game Management... Post some links to theory if it does indeed exist... Perhaps it is just a figment of the ref's imagination... tall tale stories past down from generation to generation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
For those who know Game Management and don't like it....lets hear what you would do, and how you would do it......without comparing to the way other sports are officiated. What do you think would suit hockey better than the way the current system is?
Here's what I would do:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=42731&page=4&pp=15 Post #52 (3/4 down the page)

Being a ref, you probably missed my post the first time around (post # 52)... Or maybe you saw it, but chose not to respond... you know... 'Post Management' theory...


Last edited by I in the Eye: 01-27-2004 at 09:56 PM.
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Old
01-27-2004, 10:15 PM
  #44
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Van, I ask you this...

Are you for or against linesmen using Game Management to determine if a play is offside or not?

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01-27-2004, 10:20 PM
  #45
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If an NFL receiver cant reasonably make the catch, they let the interference go. I think game management is good, and usually in the playoffs is excellent, when the best refs are there. I never liked zero tolerance, or call everything always. Game management allows a better game. When done right.

The problem of course is we dont all agree on how best to manage the game. Maybe a solution is better communication between the Refs and fans. I bet if we had segments on TV where refs came in and explained to the fans their reasoning, not only would they be more accountable, but the fans would start to feel better about it. Especially if the refs could admit, yes you are right, we missed that one.

Reffing is judgement. Perfection is not a reasonable goal.

I think some of the veteran refs could be very enlightening to the fans if they were allowed to talk. And the NHL supported them more. It could soothe a lot of hard feelings if we talked about it with the refs in the open. The NHL should let the refs talk.

It is really important that the refs communicate on the ice with the players, but perhaps a skybox could flash a red light by the penalty box if they spot a missed infraction, and allow the ref to review it on camera next whistle and decide if they agree with it. If technology could make it quick so a 10sec decision is possible. But good refs, who communicate, could make it unnecessary.

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01-27-2004, 10:31 PM
  #46
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There's a true snowball effect with some reffing. Refs in the first period set a tone with calls and non-calls and that precedent follows the rest of the game to the detriment of said game or in some cases the betterment. What drives me up the wall is as Sakic observed is the ref tendancy to keep things "tight". If a team gets a two goal lead then that team will struggle to get any calls. It's as if the refs or the league want to keep games close and call them that way at times.

So Detroit is up two goals on someone and the other team starts to push the envelope on offensive zone pick plays and interference. The refs don't call it for whatever reason, by Sakic's observations it's because they want to keep the game close. Then the team that's behind starts to obstruct and hook just a little bit more defensively to get back because they are being aggressive in the offensive zone trying to even things up. The bench starts to send guys out defensively in a too many men on the ice senario to slow down rushes. All these non-calls totally backfire when and if the game does tie up or get closer because the refs set a precedent of non-calls. Basically they make a bed they have to lay in and it creates and environment for piss poor hockey games.

I don't think anyone knows what the internal politics of NHL refs are like. Considering they have their own union it wouldn't suprise me to know that there really aren't any consequence to well officiated or poorly officiated tendencies. Ala a red-eye to a non-conference, smaller market game while someone else got the Hockey Night in Canada gig etc...

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01-27-2004, 10:59 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
Game management allows a better game. When done right..
IMO, fans have never seen how an NHL game would be played as clearly spelled out in the rule book... It would take a long term commitment and a long adaptation period before the players and teams adapted. IMO, you may be comparing a Game Management Game to an Adjustment Game... In this case, I agree with you... for the short term, a Game Managed game is better (less frivolous penalties) than a Strict Accordance game. I dream and imagine that the game of hockey as invisioned by our hockey forefathers (and spelled out with the rules) would be the most beautiful game on the earth... Absolutely no comparison to the Game Managed game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
The problem of course is we dont all agree on how best to manage the game.
This is one of the main reasons why the refs should try to enforce the rules in strict accordance to the rule book... for consistency and fairness... IMHO, Game management, consistency, and fairness do not mix very well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
Reffing is judgement. Perfection is not a reasonable goal.
Agree... but desire and strive for perfection is IMO a very reasonable goal...

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01-28-2004, 01:20 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
You said it. There's a reason why many Americans see hockey in the same light as tractor pulls and the roller derby. Like I said before, game management is akin to WWF refereeing.
I said according to his logic, not mine.

I won't bother commenting on your description of Game Management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Mind at a Time
Van, I ask you this...

Are you for or against linesmen using Game Management to determine if a play is offside or not?
Offside calls are "black and white". It is either yes or no. Most penalties in the rulebook are "grey area" rules which require a referee's judgment to be applied.

Your question proves no point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Mind at a Time
You make it sound like there is course material that teaches Game Management... Post some links to theory if it does indeed exist... Perhaps it is just a figment of the ref's imagination... tall tale stories past down from generation to generation...
I have sat through officiating clinics, and yes, Game Management was part of the course.

Here is something written by Sheldon Tozer, an Evaluation Coordinator for USA Hockey's New England District Officiating Program...

Rule Application - this is much easier to evaluate. The official should be assessing penalties that match the philosophy of the particular league or organization they work for. Successful officials will apply the rules according to the "spirit and intent of the rule" If a particular rule is an emphasis of that league and the official allows the infractions to go without calling a penalty they should be scored low. Do not confuse this category, however, with game control. This area simply means that things are called by the nature that they were intended for.

Consistency - this is tough to judge. We look for consistency at all times but the aspect and intensity of a game changes period-to-period and sometimes even minute-to-minute. So here, I always look at how the official reacts as the game changes. I want to see how an official will let them play during quiet, slow times and adjust their game as emotions pick up. If an official will not change their style as the game progresses they can do as much damage to that game as the official who calls too few or too many penalties.

Decisiveness - refers to the mannerisms of the officials when working the game. Reaction time is definitely a huge indicator of decisiveness and the body language the official uses will show how confident they are in their call. Additional emphasis shows definite confidence in the call and, again, the official must be able to effectively communicate, when appropriate, with coaches and players.

Game Control - it has been said that officials do not control the game, they react to it. This statement is mainly true, but there are times when we can't depend on the coach or team official to guide the team in a reasonable manner and we must step in to ensure that each team has a fair shot at winning the game. Here is where we are to work to eliminate the undesirable aspects of the game. Along with that, this is where the Abuse of Officials rule enters the picture. Officials are not to take verbal abuse and how they handle this will influence the score and comments about the game. Here, though, the official must be able to distinguish between hard play and play that violates the intent of the rules, take control of altercations, become aggressive themselves if they have to, show an ability to control these situations and not allow open challenges from players and coaches.


The rest can be read here..

http://www.hockeyrefs.com/columns/on...eldontozer.htm

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01-28-2004, 01:36 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
If an NFL receiver cant reasonably make the catch, they let the interference go.
Which is exactly why in the NFL Rulebook it states that the ball must have been catchable for pass interference to be called.

If the league doesn't want tripping to be called when it's X number of feet away from the puck, then they need to write it in the rulebook. Until then, it's not an officials job to determine when a tripping call should be called.

If the league doesn't want holding called in the last 2 minutes of a one goal game, then they need to write it in the rulebook. Until then, it's not an officials job to determine when he'll call holding.

The examples are endless, but you get the point...

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01-28-2004, 02:23 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Mind at a Time
IMO, fans have never seen how an NHL game would be played as clearly spelled out in the rule book...
I've watched early and pre-season junior games where the ref had been instructed to call it very tightly. It's a mess...the penalty box is constantly occupied, and it completely disrupts the flow of the game. I remember hearing people say to the GM of the home team, who was sitting in the stands, that they wouldn't be coming back to any more games if they were all handled like that - and their team won the game. And even then, the ref was letting some stuff go. I can't see how anybody who's ever played the game would want everything to be called.

And what do you do about diving if you're going to call penalties 100% of the time? Call a penalty every time a player falls down? Or, heaven forbid, will the ref actually have to use his judgement?

If anybody thinks hockey and wrestling refereeing is comparable, fine, let them go watch the WWE. We're better off without that kind of "fan".

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