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Old
02-21-2008, 02:11 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Habs at 75 points

Buf/Phi are both at 66 points in 60 games... 44 possible points left minus points differential with the Habs (9) = 35... 36 for good measure as the team has to be one point over the mark...

Magic number at 36.

But it is less than that becuase teams play eachother from within the conference and there is a maxium of 3 points.
There is a lot more work to figure this out but the number is less than 36 for sure I would say it is around 25-28 right now.

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02-21-2008, 02:19 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
But it is less than that becuase teams play eachother from within the conference and there is a maxium of 3 points.
There is a lot more work to figure this out but the number is less than 36 for sure I would say it is around 25-28 right now.
You don't understand how the magic number works.

IT IS 36!!!. The magic number is based on the number to reach for mathematical impossibility.

Meaning if you add 36 points to the Habs, they will have 111 points

Philly and Buffalo who share 8th ad 9th place are at 66 points in 60 games.

They both have 22 games left with 44 possible points.

66 + 44 = WHAT? 110 points. ONE point short of the Habs.

Get it?

The magic number is SOLELY based on FACTS AND TANGIBLES. IT IS a M-A-T-H-E-M-A-T-I-C-A-L equation! Not a question of probability.


3 point games change nothing to this, except that if Buffalo plays Montreal and loses in OT the, magic number will go down of 3.

Magic number has to do WITH the ABSOLUTE number of possible points LEFT to acquire... No single team gets 3 points for a single game... so the 3 point game theory doesn't apply at all to the magic number.



Like I said yesterday, don't apply for Mensa, you'll only hurt your feelings.

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02-21-2008, 02:23 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You don't understand how the magic number works.

IT IS 35. The magic number is based on the number to reach for mathematical impossibility.

Meaning if you had 35 points to the Habs, they will have 110 points

Philly and Buffalo who share 8th ad 9th place are at 66 points in 60 games.

They both have 22 games left with 44 possible points.

66 + 44 = WHAT? 110 points.

.
No you are wrong teams within in the Conference play eachother there is no possible way for all of the teams currently in the top 8 to win all of thier games as they play eachother meaning there is no way that 110 points can be the 8th seed it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Sure your number is right for what they would need to be officially in right now but unless the NHL changes the rules and both teams can be awarded 2 points in every game it does not work.

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02-21-2008, 02:24 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I think he means that the value the "magic number" gives is arbitrary until the actual value is zero.
Again I said I think
Ok, but he still called it "arbitrary". I think that if he actually understood the magic number, he would never have called it arbitrary as it is the total opposite.

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02-21-2008, 02:25 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
No you are wrong teams within in the Conference play eachother there is no possible way for all of the teams currently in the top 8 to win all of thier games as they play eachother meaning there is no way that 110 points can be the 8th seed it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Sure your number is right for what they would need to be officially in right now but unless the NHL changes the rules and both teams can be awarded 2 points in every game it does not work.
You absolutely do not understand how the magic number works.

Its the endgame number in which one team is officially in the playoffs.

It is not a number to ATTAIN, it is a number from which to SUBSTRACT.

That's what you don't understand.

But coming from a guy who says Higgins=Bulis, I'm not too surprised with your level of knowledge and understanding.

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02-21-2008, 02:26 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You absolutely do not understand how the magic number works.

I do read my post.
I understand what you are saying but there is no MATHMATICAL way that the 8 seed in the east ends with 110 points and the 9th with 109 if you want to work out all the games go ahead but it is impossible.

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02-21-2008, 02:31 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
I do read my post.
I understand what you are saying but there is no MATHMATICAL way that the 8 seed in the east ends with 110 points and the 9th with 109 if you want to work out all the games go ahead but it is impossible.
It is possible for a team to win all its games... In a world of possbility, YES.

Buffalo could go on and win all their games till the end of the season.

3 point games have nothing to do with this.

I repeat, so you might understand, the magic number is NOT a number of points TO ATTAIN, it's a number from which to SUBSTRACT. Because TWO teams act upon that number. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THE HABS NEED 110 POINTS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS... It's just the maximal, mathematical, possible, number of points the team in 9th place could reach.

Each Hab win substracts 2 points to the magic number, each OT/SO loss substracts 1 point from the magic number. Each regular time loss by the Sabres/Philly (all depending on which is gonna fall behind first) substracts 2 points from the magic number, any OT/SO loss substracts 1 point from the hab's magic number.

Get it?


Man, I feel like George Milton in 'Of Mice and Men'.

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02-21-2008, 02:39 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
I do read my post.
I understand what you are saying but there is no MATHMATICAL way that the 8 seed in the east ends with 110 points and the 9th with 109 if you want to work out all the games go ahead but it is impossible.
You're only getting confused because two teams are right now sharing 8th and 9th seed.

Forget about there being TWO teams there, Lennie.

It is just a question of comparing the Habs to the 9th seed and apllying the formula.

I'm well aware that the 8th and 9th seeds can't both reach 110 points because they have matchups against each other. But that does not have any impact on the magic number OF THE HABS.

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02-21-2008, 02:41 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
It is possible for a team to win all its games... In a world of possbility, YES.

Buffalo could go on and win all their games till the end of the season.

3 point games have nothing to do with this.

I repeat, so you might understand, the magic number is NOT a number of points TO ATTAIN, it's a number from which to SUBSTRACT. Because TWO teams act upon that number. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THE HABS NEED 110 POINTS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS... It's just the maximal, mathematical, possible, number of points the team in 9th place could reach.
Each Hab win substracts 2 points to the magic number, each OT/SO loss substracts 1 point from the magic number. Each regular time loss by the Sabres/Philly (all depending on which is gonna fall behind first) substracts 2 points from the magic number, any OT/SO loss substracts 1 point from the hab's magic number.

Get it?


Man, I feel like George Milton in 'Of Mice and Men'.
Yes but if Buffalo wins all of its games then the Flyers lose at leas 2 points, same with the Rangers and the Sens lose 3 along with the Leafs Bruins and Canadiens.

So you have to understand for one team to win and get 2 points another can only get a maximum on 1.

Therefore the 9th place team will not have 110 points it is IMPOSSIBLE.

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02-21-2008, 02:41 PM
  #60
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I qualify for Mensa. Just a shame that IQ doesn't equal MQ (Motivation Quotient)

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02-21-2008, 02:46 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Yes but if Buffalo wins all of its games then the Flyers lose at leas 2 points, same with the Rangers and the Sens lose 3 along with the Leafs Bruins and Canadiens.

So you have to understand for one team to win and get 2 points another can only get a maximum on 1.

Therefore the 9th place team will not have 110 points it is IMPOSSIBLE.
Is it possible for EITHER (NOT BOTH) Philly or Buffalo to get 110 points ??? YES IT IS.

I'm not saying both would.... but right now BOTH HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO REACH IT, i'm just using both as example BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH AT EQUAL GROUNDS RIGHT NOW, THEY BOTH HAVE 66 POINTS AND THEY BOTH HAVE 22 GAMES LEFT AND THEY SHARE THE 9TH SEED.

You don't understand anything.

Reread my latest post before this one.... Lennie.

Please can someone like Waffledude or even you Brownman can come and kick some sense into this fella... I don't wanna get an infraction, but there is a word that keeps comin to my mind... it starts with CLUE....


Don't you understand that :

Montreal 75 points, 21 games left, maximal points POSSIBLE is 117 points???

New Jersey too, 75pts 21 games left, 117 possible points...

Do you even UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF POSSIBLE POINTS for EACH INDIVIDUAL TEAM?????


Last edited by Ozymandias: 02-21-2008 at 02:52 PM.
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02-21-2008, 02:52 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Is it possible for EITHER (NOT BOTH) Philly or Buffalo to get 110 points ??? YES IT IS.

I'm not saying both would.... but right now BOTH HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO REACH IT, i'm just using both as example BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH AT EQUAL GROUNDS RIGHT NOW, THEY BOTH HAVE 66 POINTS AND THEY BOTH HAVE 22 GAMES LEFT AND THEY SHARE THE 9TH SEED.

You don't understand anything.

Reread my latest post before this one.... Lennie.

Please can someone like Waffledude or even you Brownman can come and kick some sense into this fella... I don't wanna get an infraction, but there is a word that keeps comin to my mind... it starts with CLUE....


Don't you understand that :

Montreal 75 points, 21 games left, maximal points POSSIBLE is 117 points???

New Jersey too, 75pts 21 games left, 117 possible points...

Do you even UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF POSSIBLE POINTS?????
Yes one of them could get 110 I don't refute that but it is impossible for them to finish 9th with that many points.

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02-21-2008, 02:53 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Yes one of them could get 110 I don't refute that but it is impossible for them to finish 9th with that many points.


You must be joking right?

You captain Obvious all of a suddent??


I think you do not understand the fact that the Magic number applies to the team that is in 9th place when you calculate it... if a team wins ten in a row, it won't be them in 9th place to calculate the number.

It's not because its buffalo or Philly that is there right now, that we have to always count it with Buffalo and Philly. No matter what team is there, you have to apply the magic number formula on the team that resides in the 9th place, get it?

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02-21-2008, 02:54 PM
  #64
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Wow, what a silly argument!

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02-21-2008, 02:55 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post


You must be joking right?

You captain Obvious all of a suddent??
Okay so maybe after all we agree.

For one team to lose another has to win.
Sure Buffalo or Philly could win out and get 110 points but because they win other teams must lose even if it is in ovetime and they still get a point.

Therefore the Habs do not need to make a difference of 36 points to get in.


Hahahah silly misunderstandings.

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02-21-2008, 03:00 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Okay so maybe after all we agree.

For one team to lose another has to win.
Sure Buffalo or Philly could win out and get 110 points but because they win other teams must lose even if it is in ovetime and they still get a point.

Therefore the Habs do not need to make a difference of 36 points to get in.


Hahahah silly misunderstandings.
No you still don't get it.

I've never said the Habs need to make 36 points to get in... 36 points is the number from which to substract until it reaches zero, substracted by the number of regular time losses (2) of the team residing in 9th position and of (1) for each So/OT loss, the number is also substracted of 2 for each win by montreal, and of (1) for each OT/SO loss.

The Magic number is the number which when will reach ZERO, the 9th place seed will have no more mathematical possibility to reach the team for which the magic number was calculated.

I think the magic number is way too complex for you to understand.

Dear lord, aren't all high schoolers supposed to understand this?

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02-21-2008, 03:02 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Is it possible for EITHER (NOT BOTH) Philly or Buffalo to get 110 points ??? YES IT IS.

I'm not saying both would.... but right now BOTH HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO REACH IT, i'm just using both as example BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH AT EQUAL GROUNDS RIGHT NOW, THEY BOTH HAVE 66 POINTS AND THEY BOTH HAVE 22 GAMES LEFT AND THEY SHARE THE 9TH SEED.

You don't understand anything.

Reread my latest post before this one.... Lennie.

Please can someone like Waffledude or even you Brownman can come and kick some sense into this fella... I don't wanna get an infraction, but there is a word that keeps comin to my mind... it starts with CLUE....


Don't you understand that :

Montreal 75 points, 21 games left, maximal points POSSIBLE is 117 points???

New Jersey too, 75pts 21 games left, 117 possible points...

Do you even UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF POSSIBLE POINTS for EACH INDIVIDUAL TEAM?????
Okay you asked for someone to help. I'll try. JMMR is correct.

I think the best way is to consider the Habs magic number versus each of the teams in the East. You are correct that the Habs magic number versus the 2 teams in 9th right now is 35. However the Habs do not need to finish ahead of these 2 teams to make the playoffs. They only need to finish ahead of some 7 of the eastern teams in order to make the playoffs. This makes it extremely difficult to compute the true magic number.

Probably the easiest is to consider it as 35 but only subtract when either the Habs get some pts or when the team in 9th (whichever that team is) loses some pts. Thus if say Buffalo catches the rangers then when Buffalo loses a game it has no effect on the magic number.

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02-21-2008, 03:03 PM
  #68
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Back away and smile JMMR, Ozy's correct here.

Edit: Here is a good website that will break it all down for you. I'm warning you all now it's pretty long.

http://zorak.best.vwh.net/nhl/answers.html#magic1

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02-21-2008, 03:03 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No you still don't get it.

I've never said the Habs need to make 36 points to get in... 36 points is the number from which to substract until it reaches zero, substracted by the number of regular time losses (2) of the team residing in 9th position and of (1) for each So/OT loss, the number is also substracted of 2 for each win by montreal, and of (1) for each OT/SO loss.
Yes and I understood that from the begining.
I was under the impression that you believed that it was possible for a team to finish 9th with 110 points.

That is it that is all you are correct about the magic number. All I was debating about was the 110 points for the 9th seed.

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02-21-2008, 03:04 PM
  #70
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The Magic number, and what JMMR is talking about, are seperate topic.

The magic number doesn't take into account that teams play each other, because if we took that into account it would be immeasurably complicated to calculate. Frankly, it wouldn't even change that much due to the advent of 3 point games. Ignoring the rest of the conference, if Philly and Buffalo win all their games, and split the ones between themselves in SO/OT wins, the new number is 34 (which is no longer a magic number, but the number of points we NEED to secure a playoff spot using this information). We can further discount that number by 0 for every time Buffalo and Philly play teams in front of them up until all those teams are tied or 1 points ahead of BUF and PHI, and then from that point onward those teams would have to split 3-point games to keep them all at pace.

I totally don't care enough to come up with a real number, but I'd guess the absolute number of points we NEED to mathematically secure a playoff spot taking into account the schedule is somewhere around 27 or 28.

Clear as mud, right?

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02-21-2008, 03:05 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
Okay you asked for someone to help. I'll try. JMMR is correct.

I think the best way is to consider the Habs magic number versus each of the teams in the East. You are correct that the Habs magic number versus the 2 teams in 9th right now is 35. However the Habs do not need to finish ahead of these 2 teams to make the playoffs. They only need to finish ahead of some 7 of the eastern teams in order to make the playoffs. This makes it extremely difficult to compute the true magic number.

Probably the easiest is to consider it as 35 but only subtract when either the Habs get some pts or when the team in 9th (whichever that team is) loses some pts. Thus if say Buffalo catches the rangers then when Buffalo loses a game it has no effect on the magic number.

Actually, if you would've read what I said, the bolded part IS how the magic number works. It has nothing to do with Buffalo, nor Philly nor the Rags. It has to do with the 9th seed.

JMMR is waaaaaay off track.

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02-21-2008, 03:06 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Yes but if Buffalo wins all of its games then the Flyers lose at leas 2 points, same with the Rangers and the Sens lose 3 along with the Leafs Bruins and Canadiens.

So you have to understand for one team to win and get 2 points another can only get a maximum on 1.

Therefore the 9th place team will not have 110 points it is IMPOSSIBLE.
Just try to clear it up a bit, what you appear to be saying is that 35 would be the magic number for the Habs to finish ahead of Buffalo, and considering that if Buffalo won all its games, it would end up mathematically leaping over a ton of teams, so the magic number calculated this way has nothing to do with the Habs actually making the playoffs; it only relates to their final position when compared to Buffalo's. Is that about right?

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02-21-2008, 03:06 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Yes and I understood that from the begining.
I was under the impression that you believed that it was possible for a team to finish 9th with 110 points.

That is it that is all you are correct about the magic number. All I was debating about was the 110 points for the 9th seed.
As if..... Lennie.

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02-21-2008, 03:07 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by All-Star View Post
Just try to clear it up a bit, what you appear to be saying is that 35 would be the magic number for the Habs to finish ahead of Buffalo, and considering that if Buffalo won all its games, it would end up mathematically leaping over a ton of teams, so the magic number calculated this way has nothing to do with the Habs actually making the playoffs; it only relates to their final position when compared to Buffalo's. Is that about right?
No, I only used Buffalo and Philly because they are right now in the 9th seed.

IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH THE 9TH seed.

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02-21-2008, 03:08 PM
  #75
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It's as simple as:
magic number = 2 * (82 - g) + p - h + 1


g = games played by highest PPG team not in the playoffs
p = total points of the highest PPG team not in the playoffs
h = Habs' total points

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