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Old
01-29-2004, 09:03 PM
  #51
Master Lok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Well built teams from the draft do not always need top-end picks to satisfy their needs when building a franchise. It helps mind you, but it is not the only way to do it. If it was the case, only 2 or 3 teams with low payrolls that finish in the bottom 5 of the draft every year would be on the right track.

The key is amatuer scouting. .....But the overwhelming thought remains - good scouting makes for a good team.
Wow, I'm actually in agreement for once with Mizral. Anyone remember the Hartford Whalers? How many high picks did they get which they continued to botch up? The Senators, Avs and Flyers, consistently draft players who can play, despite their poor drafting order. The Calgarys, and Canucks and NYR however draft poorly considering their higher positions.


For e.g:
Compare in 1998:
Vancouver: Bryan Allen (4)
Calgary: Fata (6), Blair Betts (33)
Rangers: Maholtra (7)
------------
Colorado: Tanguay (12), Skoula (17), Regehr (19), Scott Parker (20), Ramzi Abid (28), Philip Sauve (38)
Ottawa: Mike Fisher (44), Schastlivy (101)
Philly: Gagne (22)
Detroit: Fischer (25), Datsyuk (171)
St. Louis: Christian Backman (24)


Compare in 1999:
Vancouver: Sedins #2 and #3
Calgary: Saprykin #11
Rangers: Brendl (#4) and Lundmark (#9)
---
Colorado: Branko Radijovic, Vrbata
Ottawa: Havlat, Prusek
Philly: Ouellet
Detroit: Zetterberg
St. Louis: Barret Jackman, Alex Khavanov

Compare in 2000:
Vancouver: Nathan Smith (#23 overall)
Calgary: Brent Krahn (#9 overall)
Rangers: Filip Novak, Dom Moore
-----
Colorado: Nederost, Jared Aulin (LA), Kurt Sauer (Anaheim), Liles, Bootland (Detroit)
Ottawa: Volchenkov, Vermette
Philly: Williams, Cechmanek (6th round!)
Detroit: nobody good
St. Louis: Taffe, Papineau

Compare in 2001:
Vancouver: RJ Umberger (16)
Calgary: Chuch Kobasew (14)
Rangers: Blackburn (10 - yay!)
------------
Colorado: no one
Ottawa: Spezza (2), Emery (99)
Philly: Woywitka, Seidenberg (172)
Detroit: Grigorenko (62),
St. Louis: Cajanek

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Old
01-29-2004, 09:07 PM
  #52
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And let's throw some more wood on the fire. Regardless of who a team drafts, they have to know what the hell to do with the player.

Even with a top 5 pick, what you do with the player and his development is just as important.

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Old
01-30-2004, 02:32 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Oi'll Say: First off, many wingers are drafted as centreman and are later converted.
And so that makes them centermen? The Oilers don't need someone who can play center at the junior level, they need someone who can play center in the nhl.

Quote:
Also, good scouts do find these diamonds in the rough. Which, as I said, leads me to question the worthiness of the Oilers scouts. It's easy to get depth when they've had so many top 3 round picks as they've had, but they have yet to get more than 1 legitimate top-end threat so far. Even in trades, Lowe hasn't picked one up, unless you consider Brewer to be one.
I beg to differ, but the Oilers have their fair share of kids with very high potential, are you kidding me?

Hemsky, Torres, Lynch, Semenov, Woywitka and Greene are still grade "A" prospects right now, that's lots. Rita? Who knows. By the time MacT is done with him he'll probably be in the echl as a backup goalie.

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Old
01-30-2004, 03:54 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
And so that makes them centermen? The Oilers don't need someone who can play center at the junior level, they need someone who can play center in the nhl.

I beg to differ, but the Oilers have their fair share of kids with very high potential, are you kidding me?

Hemsky, Torres, Lynch, Semenov, Woywitka and Greene are still grade "A" prospects right now, that's lots. Rita? Who knows. By the time MacT is done with him he'll probably be in the echl as a backup goalie.
Hemsky, sure.

Torres? Do you really put him up there with top prospects/young players on other teams in the conference such as Alexander Frolov, Dion Phaneuf, and Maren Michalek?

Lynch a grade A prospect? Maybe grade B or C, but A? Is he going to be a #1 or #2 defenseman? Do you really think that? Same goes with Semenov, Woywitka, and Greene.

Frankly, only Hemsky really belongs on a list of 'Grade A' prospects. The rest are B's or C's.

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01-30-2004, 04:01 AM
  #55
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Maybe I'm being a homer, but I disagree with many of these picks being bad picks.

For example, 1998, you have Allen as a 'bad' pick? Outside of Tanguay, Regehr, and maybe Gagne, there isn't a player in the 1st round on your list of 'good' picks that I'd take trade Allen for 1 for 1 right now.

As for the Sedin's, only Havlat has more points than either of them in the 1st round. I know they are not well liked here, but you cannot deny that they are still both top 10 picks if you have to do it all over again, Henrik probobly well within the top 5.

No arguement for your 2000 group.

2001 is the one I take the most issue with. First off, Umberger was not a bad pick. He was a Hobey Baker finalist, and I'm sure he will be a fine NHL'er. The only reason he is not with the Canucks right now, very likely, is that he could not come to terms on a contract. He is still highly thought of, and make no mistake, he will be signed in the off season.

But perhaps the real one that puzzles me is Dan Blackburn. The guy had an amazing start to his career, blows the league away the 10 or so games he plays, and on the most disfunctional team in the leaugue, and at all of 20 years of age, he doesn't play great as a #1 goaltender - all of a sudden he's terrible now? He got injured which is unfortunate, but Blackburn still has the potential to be a wonderful goaltender someday in the NHL.

That said, I agree with you about the picks. The Caps are another good example. They have had so many top end picks, but so often they made mistakes and drafted terribly, even in the top few picks. Anyone remember Alexander Volchkov?

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01-30-2004, 04:13 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Hemsky, sure.

Torres? Do you really put him up there with top prospects/young players on other teams in the conference such as Alexander Frolov, Dion Phaneuf, and Maren Michalek?

Lynch a grade A prospect? Maybe grade B or C, but A? Is he going to be a #1 or #2 defenseman? Do you really think that? Same goes with Semenov, Woywitka, and Greene.

Frankly, only Hemsky really belongs on a list of 'Grade A' prospects. The rest are B's or C's.
It's a bit premature to put Phaneuf ahead of anyone who's already an nhl regular, let alone a guy who's been on the 2nd line more often than not. And a guy like Torres is an "A"player when he's hitting the 20 goal mark and has a +10 rating. Those are decent numbers for a second line finesse player, Torres is more than that even if he's not the physical force he was projected to be.

Yes Lynch is an "A" prospect, and Semenov is a bit better than that. He's moving past the stage where he's just a prospect and towards becoming a proven high level nhl performer.

I wouldn't stick my neck out for Woywitka at this stage, or Greene for that matter because I haven't seen quite enough of either of them to justify a very strong opinion, but I'll make it my very best guess that Greene is, and everyone else seems to think Jeff is so it's fair to go along with the popular vote 'til proven otherwise.

C's? Just exactly which one of those guys is a "c"?

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01-30-2004, 04:18 AM
  #57
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Oi'll say! that is the single funniest avatar and saying I've yet seen, and with LawnDemon and g2k around that's saying something.

I imagine MacT having Jani helping with birthing calfs and then cleaning out a few pigpens.

"You learn the diffrence 'tween a ringer and a leanr, and we're sqare, YAW-NEE".

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01-30-2004, 04:37 AM
  #58
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Yeah, I think it's pretty slick too.

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Old
01-30-2004, 04:39 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Oi'll say! that is the single funniest avatar and saying I've yet seen, and with LawnDemon and g2k around that's saying something.

I imagine MacT having Jani helping with birthing calfs and then cleaning out a few pigpens.

"You learn the diffrence 'tween a ringer and a leanr, and we're sqare, YAW-NEE".
LOL!

Thanks LT, actually a lot of credit goes to Digger 'cause he did the pic for me.

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01-30-2004, 04:43 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
Yeah, I think it's pretty slick too.
Hey, we can't all have a shark with Modano's head in it's mouth but yeah, I like it.

I think my favorite avatar was the one that had the Iraqi information minister with the Stars paraphanalia and the quote "the playoffs are over, the Stars have won!"

Anyone remember whose that one was?

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01-30-2004, 04:45 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
Hey, we can't all have a shark with Modano's head in it's mouth but yeah, I like it.

I think my favorite avatar was the one that had the Iraqi information minister with the Stars paraphanalia and the quote "the playoffs are over, the Stars have won!"

Anyone remember whose that one was?
Yeah, that was great...can't remember for the life of me though.

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Old
01-30-2004, 04:59 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Wow, I'm actually in agreement for once with Mizral. Anyone remember the Hartford Whalers? How many high picks did they get which they continued to botch up? The Senators, Avs and Flyers, consistently draft players who can play, despite their poor drafting order. The Calgarys, and Canucks and NYR however draft poorly considering their higher positions.
Ah, the poor hapless Hartford Whalers. Your post got me curious about their alleged botched drafting. The results below surprised me abit...

There certainly have their misses but some notable first rounders include Ron Francis, Sylvain Cote, Dana Murzyn, Scott Young, Jody Hull, Bobby Holik, Chris Pronger, Jeff O Neil, Jean-Sebastien Giguere who have all enjoyed NHL careers of varying success. Some high pick journeymen include Sylvain Turgeon, Robert Petrovicky, Patrick Poulin.

Check out 1982 depth after Paul Lawless. The Whale drafted 56 R Kevin Dineen
67 D Ulf Samuelsson, 88 C Ray Ferraro. But 1983 ouch.

Decent picks. I venture the Whalers were victimized as much or more by bad trades and mismanagement more than poor drafting...

Hartford Whalers Draft History
1979
18 F Ray Allison
39 Stuart Smith
60 F Don Nachbaur
81 F Ray Neufeld
102 D Mark Renaud
123 Dave McDonald

1980
8 D Fred Arthur
29 C Michel Galarneau
50 D Mickey Volcan
71 R Kevin McClelland
92 G Darren Jensen
113 Mario Cerri
134 Mike Martin
155 Brent Denat
176 G Paul Fricker
197 Lorne Bokshowan

1981
4 C Ron Francis
61 R Paul MacDermid
67 F Mike Hoffman
93 Bill Maguire
103 F Dan Bourbonnais
130 D John Mokosak
151 Denis Dore
172 G Jeff Poeschl
193 Larry Power

1982
14 L Paul Lawless
35 D Mark Paterson
56 R Kevin Dineen
67 D Ulf Samuelsson
88 C Ray Ferraro
109 C Randy Gilhen
130 C Jim Johannson
151 L Mickey Krampotich
172 Kevin Skilliter
214 Martin Linse
235 Randy Cameron

1983
2 L Sylvain Turgeon
20 F David Jensen
23 D Ville Siren
61 Leif Karlsson
64 Dave MacLean
72 C Ron Chyzowski
104 C Brian Johnson
124 D Joe Reekie
143 D Chris Duperron
144 G Jamie Falle
164 Bill Fordy
193 Reine Karlsson
204 Allan Acton
224 D Darcy Kaminski

1984
11 D Sylvain Cote
110 R Mike Millar
131 D Mike Vellucci
173 C John Devereaux
193 C Brent Regan
214 D Jim Culhane
234 G Peter Abric

1985
5 D Dana Murzyn
26 G Kay Whitmore
68 C Gary Callaghan
110 R Shane Churla
131 L Chris Brant
152 Brian Puhalski
173 Greg Dornbach
194 Paul Tory
215 Jerry Pawloski
236 Bruce Hill

1986
11 R Scott Young
32 D Marc Laforge
74 D Brian Chapman
95 G Bill Horn
116 R Joe Quinn
137 Steve Torrel
158 L Ron Hoover
179 Rob Glasgow
200 G Sean Evoy
221 Cal Brown
242 C Brian Verbeek

1987
18 R Jody Hull
39 D Adam Burt
81 C Terry Yake
102 Mark Rousseau
123 D Jeff St. Cyr
144 Gregg Wolf
165 John Moore
186 C Joe Day
228 R Kevin Sullivan
249 G Steve Laurin

1988
11 L Chris Govedaris
32 D Barry Richter
74 Dean Dyer
95 L Scott Morrow
116 D Corey Beaulieu
137 C Kerry Russell
158 Jim Burke
179 Mark Hirth
200 Wayde Bucsis
221 Rob White
242 Dan Slatalla
1989
10 C Bobby Holik
52 R Blair Atcheynum
73 L Jim McKenzie
94 C James Black
115 L Jerome Bechard
136 L Scott Daniels
157 R Raymond Saumier
178 L Michel Picard
199 R Trevor Buchanan
220 John Battice
241 C Peter Kasowski

1990
15 R Mark Greig
36 L Geoff Sanderson
57 G Mike Lenarduzzi
78 Chris Bright
120 D Cory Keenan
141 D Jergus Baca
162 D Martin D'Orsonnens
183 Corey Osmak
204 C Espen Knutsen
225 Tommie Eriksen
246 C Denis Chalifoux

1991
9 L Patrick Poulin
31 D Martin Hamrlik
53 L Todd Hall
59 C Michael Nylander
75 L Jim Storm
119 R Mike Harding
141 D Brian Mueller
163 D Steven Yule
185 D Chris Belanger
207 G Jason Currie
229 F Mike Santonelli
251 D Rob Peters

1992
9 C Robert Petrovicky
47 C Andrei Nikolishin
57 D Jan Vopat
79 L Kevin Smyth
81 D Jason McBain
143 F Jarrett Reid
153 L Ken Belanger
177 C Konstantin Korotkov
201 D Greg Zwakman
225 D Steve Halko
249 D Joakim Esbjors

1993
2 D Chris Pronger
72 D Marek Malik
84 R Trevor Roenick
115 D Nolan Pratt
188 G Manny Legace
214 F Dmitri Gorenko
240 D Wes Swinson
266 C Igor Chibirev

1994
5 C Jeff O'Neill
83 C Hnat Domenichelli
109 D Ryan Risidore
187 C Tom Buckley
213 D Ashlin Halfnight
230 R Matt Ball
239 G Brian Regan
265 L Steve Nimigon

1995
13 G Jean-Sebastien Giguere
35 D Sergei Fedotov
85 C Ian MacNeil
87 R Sami Kapanen
113 D Hugh Hamilton
165 C Byron Ritchie
191 L Milan Kostolny
217 D Mike Rucinski
1996
34 L Trevor Wasyluk
61 L Andrei Petrunin
88 L Craig MacDonald
104 C Steve Wasylko
116 D Mark McMahon
143 G Aaron Baker
171 D Greg Kuznik
197 F Kevin Marsh
223 R Craig Adams
231 F Askhat Rakhmatulin

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Old
01-30-2004, 06:30 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Maybe I'm being a homer, but I disagree with many of these picks being bad picks.

For example, 1998, you have Allen as a 'bad' pick? Outside of Tanguay, Regehr, and maybe Gagne, there isn't a player in the 1st round on your list of 'good' picks that I'd take trade Allen for 1 for 1 right now.

As for the Sedin's, only Havlat has more points than either of them in the 1st round. I know they are not well liked here, but you cannot deny that they are still both top 10 picks if you have to do it all over again, Henrik probobly well within the top 5.

No arguement for your 2000 group.

2001 is the one I take the most issue with. First off, Umberger was not a bad pick. He was a Hobey Baker finalist, and I'm sure he will be a fine NHL'er. The only reason he is not with the Canucks right now, very likely, is that he could not come to terms on a contract. He is still highly thought of, and make no mistake, he will be signed in the off season.

But perhaps the real one that puzzles me is Dan Blackburn. The guy had an amazing start to his career, blows the league away the 10 or so games he plays, and on the most disfunctional team in the leaugue, and at all of 20 years of age, he doesn't play great as a #1 goaltender - all of a sudden he's terrible now? He got injured which is unfortunate, but Blackburn still has the potential to be a wonderful goaltender someday in the NHL.

That said, I agree with you about the picks. The Caps are another good example. They have had so many top end picks, but so often they made mistakes and drafted terribly, even in the top few picks. Anyone remember Alexander Volchkov?
Mizral, Actually for the Rags, Flames and Canucks, I wasn't showing their "terrible" picks, I was only showing their first round picks regardless of whether they were good or not. The Sedins and Bryan are not terrible by any stretch of the imagination, but to be honest with their placements in the draft, they're not comparable to Kovalchuk, Heatley, Nash, or any other Franchise players. As for Blackburn, he is in noway terrible, just a bit unlucky with injuries and if he can rebound from the injuries, he shows amazing promise.

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Old
01-30-2004, 06:58 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Ah, the poor hapless Hartford Whalers. Your post got me curious about their alleged botched drafting. The results below surprised me abit...


Decent picks. I venture the Whalers were victimized as much or more by bad trades and mismanagement more than poor drafting...

1988
11 L Chris Govedaris

1989
10 C Bobby Holik

1990
15 R Mark Greig

1991
9 L Patrick Poulin

1992
9 C Robert Petrovicky

1993
2 D Chris Pronger

1994
5 C Jeff O'Neill

1995
13 G Jean-Sebastien Giguere

1996
34 L Trevor Wasyluk
Ouch. The drafts in the 1990's are almost as bad as the Oilers. I totally agree with you dude on trades just absolutely victimizing them. 88, 90, 91, 92, and 96 - their first round draft picks went from downright terrible to just journeyman and you have to get better than that when you pick 9-13.

But you're absolutely right about horrible, team-destroying trades killing the poor Whalers.

Trading Chris Pronger for Brendan Shanahan wasn't bad. But then trading Shanahan for Keith Primeau, an over the hill Coffey and 1997 first round pick (Nikos Tselios) really really hurt. Franchise Dman, Norris Trophy winner for 2/3 centre, over the hill Dman and a prospect who never panned out.

Trading Bobby Holik for Sean Burke and Eric Weinrich was not bad value wise and helped solidify their goalie position for years but hurt them offensively. Giguere was traded with Cassels for Gary Roberts and Trevor Kidd. Wasn't bad value wise since Calgary gave up on Giguere, but Roberts left Carolina after short stint, so it hurt them over the long term.

Seems like the Whalers really have a problem leaving alone and letting the kids develop. Instead they trade for "right now" prospect who inevitably is worse than the original. (pronger for shanahan for primeau.)

Here are the more recent drafts by the Hurricanes

1997 - Nikos tselios (22)
1998 - Jeff Heerema (11) - waived, claimed by St. Louis, waived, claimed by NYR
1999 - David Tanabe (16) - traded with Knyazev for Danny Markov, who in turn was traded for Justin Williams (nice!)
2000 - Thomas Kurka (32)
2001 - Igor Knyazev (15) - traded along with Tanabe for Markov. ouch.
2002 - Cam Ward (25)
2003 - Eric Staal (2)

So... over the past seven years, they have ONE player as a result of their drafts (Justin Williams) and only the most recent draft did they pick up another player Eric Staal who will hopefully be the next great hope. Unless he gets traded ala Chris Pronger. Sad sad sad. Man, suddenly I'm quite thankful we have the drafting team that we do have now....

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