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As a GM, what exactly has Sather done so wrong??

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Old
01-27-2004, 08:33 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
Colorodo: Ummmm...don't think so as they've spent about as much as the Rangers on outside players.....Lacroix has just been more fortuanate with the ones he's acquired. Helps to have had the greatest goalie that ever lived between the pipes...ya think?
PL was fortunante that the Avs drafted some good prospects look up what they gave to get there players.

Quote:
Ottawa: OK, that's another example like the Devils but they too, have the luxury of building from within as the pressures like they are in NY, just aren't there.
The Sens should be the role modell for the NY Rangers, if they want to get a successful franchise.

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Philly: Not even worth mentioning as Clarke has done a horrible job
- Pitkanen deal before Draft Day in 2002.
- Lindros deal. The Flyers got Johnsson, Hlavac and a top prospect back then (Brendl)

Quote:
Detroit: Another team like Colorodo that's bought,acquired a ton of players via the money route and they've had success this way.
Lidstöm, Yzerman, Zetterberg, Datsyuk (he has more points than any Ranger) and Fischer have been drafted by the Wings. You are right they also signed & aquired lot's players.

Quote:
Vancouver: I guess another Devils,Ottawa example of building from within
What? Näslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Linden (2nd time), Cloutier, Hedberg, Sopel or Salo all came in via a trade.

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01-27-2004, 08:33 PM
  #27
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As a GM, what exactly has Sather done so wrong??

He cashes his paycheck.

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01-27-2004, 08:35 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
Colorado drafted their core guys and traded for Forsberg who on that team was a hugh UFA signing? Who on that team was a salary dump?

Detroit, aside from their goalies (Osgood aside) a case could be made, but they have taken cast offs from other teams on their defence. While you would like to believe that the bulk of their forward group was acquired via FA, the fact is that Shanahan was traded for, Hull is the only notable FA of the group.

Dallas is a different story and they are suffering for it. While not as much as the Rangers, they are suffering

Well, Colorado signed Kariya and Selanne.

As far as the Flyers go, we all hate Clarke but he managed to make the playoffs every year and still draft Pitkannen. True he still has not solved the goalie problem, which could be the Fly guys Achilles heel come the playoffs, but he has managed his assets a lot better than Sather has and was able to acquire Amonte, Brashear, Markov, Handzus, Comrie, and Kappanen. Somehow the Flyers have the players to get these players and make the playoffs while Sather is yet to make the playoffs and missed out on all those players.

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01-27-2004, 08:39 PM
  #29
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Trading away Mike York was a joke, he was arguably the team's best player at the time and a Rangers draft pick to boot (which is almost as obsolete as the woolly mammoth these days!). If Sather wasn't to blame for re-acquiring Alexei Kovalev, then who is? Sather not only made the deal to get him back but has also NOT given him the ice time he had in Pittsburgh as the team's head coach. If Sather the GM didn't realize that Sather the coach wouldn't be able to give the stars (Kovalev, Lindros, Bure, now Jagr) the ice time they ALL need to be at their best, how is Sather NOT to blame for all of this???

Also, trading away Kim Johnsson and Marek Zidlicky also hurt. BTW, where's Ales Pisa these days? He might have been a perfect replacement for Zidlicky but there was no room in NYC with the likes of Malakhov, Mironov and Poti around. The latter three defensemen are among Sather's worst judgment calls.

Sather today just looks like a man drunk with power, with no direction or clue as to what it takes to win in today's NHL. He's a lot like Tony Montana in Scarface...instead of self-destructing, Sather is taking his hockey team with him.

And for those that worship Lou Lamoriello, just remember that Sather WAS Lou Lamoriello before he came to the Big Apple so why would Lou be any different? Whomever the new GM is needs to rebuild this hockey team from the ground up. However, as long as Dolan ignores the rebuilding process nothing will change. Even Sam Pollock would have trouble building a winner in this current climate.

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01-27-2004, 08:42 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915

For the sake of friendly debate, I'll offer a somewhat differing opinion.

Colorodo: Ummmm...don't think so as they've spent about as much as the Rangers on outside players.....Lacroix has just been more fortuanate with the ones he's acquired. Helps to have had the greatest goalie that ever lived between the pipes...ya think?

Prior to last summer, when Kariya and Selanne basically threw themselves on Colorado's doorstep and said "we'll play hockey for you at wholesale prices," when did Lacroix EVER indulge in free agents, other than his own? In the summer of '01 he lavished Roy, Sakic and Blake with huge deals, but that was to retain his own roster! And his acquisition of Blake was a "reality-based" deal. He gave up assets (players; picks), not simply a boatload of money and scraps. (Yes, at this point in time A. Carter is scraps.) And some of the very same high-priced free agent players NYR has acquired, Lacroix let go, smartly (e.g., Fleury; Lefebrve; Kasparaitus).

Ottawa: OK, that's another example like the Devils but they too, have the luxury of building from within as the pressures like they are in NY, just aren't there.

Someone needs to tell me where this NY "pressure to win" comes from. Certainly not Jimmy Dolan. Having lived there the majority of my life, I understand that NYR has won one Cup in 64 years, The Knicks haven't won a championship in over 30 years, the Jets in 35 years. Yet, they all continue to thrive as businesses and retain an extremely strong fanbase. "Pressure to win" - That's a cliche, a myth (perpetrated in great part by Neil Smith). Fans will allow for teams to rebuild; just read this board .

Philly: Not even worth mentioning as Clarke has done a horrible job



There are approx. 25+ other GMs who would love to have performed the "horrible" job that Clarke has done. He only puts out a contender every year. Somehow, that's horrible, but repeatedly not making the playoffs is an acceptable job for a GM?

Dallas: Like Philly, bought almost everyone they have

To an extent, this is true.

Detroit: Another team like Colorodo that's bought,acquired a ton of players via the money route and they've had success this way.

Your Colorado mischaracterization notwithstanding, Detroit has had a veteran core of homegrown talent for years. They've added to that core through trades and FA acquisitions. And, as you mention, they've won! That suggests that they have made the correct personnel decisions. Unlike Mr. Sather.

Vancouver: I guess another Devils,Ottawa example of building from within.

True.

Toronto: Spend just as much as the Rangers with alot more success at least the past 5 years they have.

True.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Vlady27
And for those that worship Lou Lamoriello, just remember that Sather WAS Lou Lamoriello before he came to the Big Apple so why would Lou be any different? Whomever the new GM is needs to rebuild this hockey team from the ground up. However, as long as Dolan ignores the rebuilding process nothing will change. Even Sam Pollock would have trouble building a winner in this current climate.
That's an interesting point. I wonder if that is the general consensus among NYR fans. That is, people rip Dolan a lot, understandably, including for his continued support of Sather. But Sather, far as I can tell, has never stated a quick-fix approach to NYR. His actions speak very differently, of course :p, but I've read and heard Sather repeatedly talk about building the team properly and undoing all that came before him. Not suggesting I believe him, but that would suggest that Dolan is not pressuring him to move any quicker, no? It would be a tremendous scenario to see how Lou L. would operate in NYC. Personally thought Sather was the best thing that could have happened to NYR when he was hired, having created success out of limited resource$ for a long time in Edmonton. Thought he would bring that discipline to Manhattan. Not so.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-28-2004 at 03:53 AM.
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01-27-2004, 08:58 PM
  #31
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I'm sorry, the rest of you guys are all way to nice to this guy...

No offense maximus but you weren't around when the moves for guys like erica were brewing. I would venture to say that about 70% of us did NOT want erica.

So let's take a look at what he's done trades and pickup wise...... starting from the beginning....



Signed Mark Messier - Bad move, all of us were saying that it was time to move on ect ect......

Traded Langer, 2001 4th Pick and Rob Dimio for Sandy McCarthy - Not a horrible move at the time didn't pan out because a guy that was brought here to enforce and be the tough guy, didn't. Not entirely Slats fault.

Grosek aquired with Brad Brown for future considerations (ie. Quintal) - nice sneaky move by slats, I'll give him credit for this one....quintal was a sissy who didn't deserve to wear Ranger blue and only came for the money.

Smrek was acquired for Gusarov- good move to get rid of the Christmas goose too bad smrek didn't fare much better.

Graves, Pilon traded for Sammuelsson, Gosselin - Not a bad move but definently a heart breaker.

Ulmer and Doig traded for Sean Gagnon - I don't even remember seeing Gagnon play..... ulmer well he kinda dissapeared as well and Doig didn't really do too much until last year... again kind of a minor league move.

Kamesky's contract bought out- bout damn time.

Kyle freadrich aquired for Nils Ekman and Tim Talyor- nothing special here.

Brad Brown let go on free agency even though he was an RFA - i remember a few people that weren't too happy with this after the signings I'll touch on in a second.

Karpa, Ulanov, Ciger- Signed via UFA, while we didn't know they were going to be as bad as they were, nobody was impressed.

Eric Lindros and future considerations aquired for Pavel Brendl,Jan Hlavac, Kim Johnsson 2003 3rd round pick. - this move made me and alot of other people sick.....Jan was the least of the problems.... Kim was a nice and up coming offensive minded dman that had the skill to probably play 2nd pair on the Rangers, Brendl at the time had a value that was VERY VERY high.... granted he never panned out but no one knew about this at the time......He could have fetched something better is what we all believe, that and a 3rd round pick, a fairly high pick... all this for a guy that EVERYONE and his mother knew was a shell of his formal self and was one head injury away from being done for good. Bad move in hindsite and bad move in forsite.....

Barnaby "puke" aquired for Ciger - Good move as far as I'm concerned, we get a pesky player for a player that didn't want to play.....

Malholtra and Heisten for Rucinsky and Lyashenko - Not alot of people were happy about this move... didn't really ever pan out favoring either team too much. (RIP Roman) the biggest problem was trading youth (manny) for an older guy (marty) in effort to get Erica to do something.

Bure aquired with a 2nd round pick for Ulanov, Novak, 2002 1st round 2002 2nd round and 2003 4th round. - Didn't like this move for one reason...... Youth goes and older DAMAGED goods come this way.....I won't get into him getting injured but we all knew he was also one or 2 more injuries away from being done.....Yet again we take a chance on a player by trading our youth away. The big plus was we conned them into taking ulanov.

Poti and Murry acquired for Mike York and a 2002 4th rounder - Ahh the edmonton deals..... everyone hated this move from the beginning simply because it made no sense. The rangers didn't need another offensive minded defenseman, let alone one that was being booed at home ice consistently.

Oliwa acquired for future considerations (hopefully nothing more than a bag of pucks) again not a big move either way but he had no hockey skill...

Holik, Kasparaitus acquired by free agency - Personally I liked getting holik, and kaspy wasn't that bad but I seem to remember alot of posters staing kaspy as overrated because of the teams and pairings he had played with. Not too mention the lengths of the contracts he's given them which makes them untradable.

Dunham acquired for Tomas Kloucek, Rem Murray and Marek Zidlicky - Hmmm seemed like a bad move then seems like a bad move now. Granted everyone is still waiting on kloucek and Zidlicky has since cooled down from the start of the season, and Dunham was solid, it just didn't seem like a good trade. Sather looked like he rushed into it and took the first OK deal he could get. Goaltenders usually don't fetch much in trades and we overpaid for him no question.

Tibbets signed - I don't even need to get into this... what was he thinking?



err time to leave work, more to come later.......or someone else can take over whatever......

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Old
01-27-2004, 08:58 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
Other than Lamorillo, who has the luxury of building from within, how many top teams in the NHL were built from within like you say you'd be willing to sit around for 3-4 horrid years and hope they develop....eh?
Luxury?? Are you saying its a luxury Sather doesn't have??? Says WHO??? And if he's such a high and mighty hockey mind, and one with Dolan;s comlete blessing, why didn't he build from within 3 years ago??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
Colorodo:

Ottawa:

Philly:

Dallas:

Detroit:

Vancouver:

Toronto:

I could go on but other than 3 or so top teams, most of the teams have or at least have gone the Ranger route of buying top players or taking on big salaries. One difference is that it seems that when these same players come to NY, they either get "stage fright" or get hurt or whatever.....They simply don't perform as well as they did in the former cities.
A list of teams who've had success by taking what they had in house, and either developing them, or trading them for other they could develop.. NOT high risk players with huge injury histories.. And each acquired high-profile players that fit into their existing system, NOT the other way around.

And please spare me with the "stage fright" excuses.. The reason players don't succeed here, is because they're not put into a position to do so.. See Square Pegs, Round holes in..

And it's not Sather's fault that Kovalev's been mediocre, but it sure as hell is Sathers fault that the team still sucks while Kovalev struggles..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
And I find it VERY hard to believe that the majority of folks on this board DID NOT want us to pick up PBure,ELindros and AKovalev when we were having all sorts of problems scoring goals and we were right in the midst of the playoff hunt.....very hard to believe. And now once again the doomsdayers are saying the Jagr for ACarter deal stinks and that Sather is a jerk for picking up a 4 million dollar stud fwd for the playoff run......what a load of crap.

We just find it really easy to place blame and why not Sather. But the bottom line is and remains, the pieces are in place for us to make the playoffs......a little tinkering here by Slats to pick up another Dman...maybe trade for a Khabby and with Devries and Kasper coming back, I like our chances.....
Then you should have been here then.. Because the problems then, looked just like the problems now.. Not so much lack of goal scoring, but lack of preventing them.. Too many chiefs, not enough warriors..

The deal stinks becuase once again, he's made a deal that does NOTHING to address the actual needs of the team, and he used a chip in Carter to do it.. Carter for Witt would have been much better received here.. Why wouldn't Sather, the one who built this pig, be the one to blame??? You make like their chances, but you're ignoring the evidence..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
Also, I have yet to hear any name other than Lamorillo, which will never happen in this lifetime, to come and lead us.....not one!. Yet, its "get rid of Sather"..."its Sathers fault Kovalev has underachieved and its Sathers fault our best two dmen Devries and Kasper got hurt"......we can go on and on.....Anyone think we just have some darn rotten luck....huh?....I know I do and that's not an excuse...its the truth....we've had some damn bad luck recently and we are due to get some love from the hockey gods and than all of a sudden Sather will be OK....Amazing how fickle we are.....truly amazing.

-Max
As dedalus pointed out, there was a whole other thread on this.. Names included Anders Hedberg, Don Maloney, Dean Lombardi, Steve Tambellini, David Conte.. And more..

Each would be an improvment simply by being more in tune with todays game, and almost every one of them has a better draft record (in so far as their input has been with different teams) than Sather has had in the last 8 years (which obviously includes Edmonton)..

And it's not Sathers fault they got hurt, its his fault there was NOTHING in house to replace them, with or without a couple of injuries in HFD.. It's simply NOT an excuse, every team goes through it, and for a guy who promised "Younger, bigger, faster" he should have had depth on the farm ready to step up..

Nobody's being fickle here, its called honestly assesing the situation..

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01-27-2004, 09:07 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
Sorry guys....I aint buying what your selling. Building a team is a crap shoot. Other than Lamorillo, who has the luxury of building from within, how many top teams in the NHL were built from within like you say you'd be willing to sit around for 3-4 horrid years and hope they develop....eh?

Philly: Not even worth mentioning as Clarke has done a horrible job

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why Sather has been a better GM than Clarke.

Clarke isn't the best GM in the NHL, but he's so much better than Sather it's laughable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

If you're looking for mistakes made by Sather, go no further than coaching hires.

Two summers ago Sather had the first opportunity to hire Burns & Hitchcock, arguably 2 of the top 3 coached in the NHL. He waited, waited, and then waited some more. Meanwhile the Flyers and Devils both lost in the first round.

Clarke immediately fires Barber, and hires Hitchcock.
Lamarillo fires Constantine and hires Burns.

Meanwhile Sather hires rookie coach, Bryan Trottier.

No co-incidence that the Flyers & Devils tie for the fewest GAA last year.

Devils finsih 4th in the NHL in points and win the Stanley Cup.
Flyers finish 5th in the NHL in points and lose to the Presidents Cup winning Senators in Round 2.

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01-27-2004, 09:10 PM
  #34
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What can I tell ya fellas, I give up.....SATHER SUX...get rid of him....its all his fault....everything is his fault. Its not the players fault....its Sathers fault.

And Dedalus, we can disagree...that's fine. But please don't use derogatory type of stuff like catagorizing me as a "newbie" or that your "giving me a break" by not lacing into me.....OK?. I dunno how old you are or how long you have suffered being a Ranger fan but I'm 41 years young and have been a Ranger fan going on 34 years now(since 1970)....I've probably either watched live or been to 90% of the Ranger games that have been played over that time(and I'm married with two kids....not easy to do that my friend).....I played the game for many years both roller and ice when I moved out of the Brooklyn to Rockland County and I've participated in fantasy hockey the past 6 years in a big money auction league and have two titles and a couple of money of finishes to my name. I don't say this to brag but rather to state to you, that I'm no "newbie" as you state.

I know my hockey and know what I'm talking about even if you do disagree about my not wanting to blame Sather for EVERYTHING that's gone wrong. Did you ever think that maybe I wanted to start a good debate about the subject and felt like taking that position cause it would be much different one than most Ranger fans are taking these days to see what kind of response occured....eh? Not that it occured in this case but we are both as passionate about our team and so go easy with your "newbie" remarks.....OK?

And just cause my HF Board posts haven't quite broken the triple digit marks like you doesn't mean that I don't know my hockey or that I haven't been swam in these waters for over a year but only just recently I decided to join the frey....ya follow? So me being a "newbie" is the furtherst thing from the truth and I resent being classified as one and I would appreciate it if in the future, you don't classify me that way.

We are all Ranger fans(guys who have posted thousands of times and even guys like me who have not even posted a hundred) and I guess what's coming out in me today(I also went to the dentist yesterday and I've noticed I'm a bit ornery as well....lol) is frustration that besides us being the laughing stock of the NHL, there is so much negativity going on and so I was trying to put a somewhat positive spin on things.......guess it didn't work....

-Maxie

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01-27-2004, 09:20 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
Dallas: Like Philly, bought almost everyone they have
Philly has been built almost exclusively through trades. Only 3 players were signed as UFA's

Philadelphia Flyers and how they were aquired.

Roenick - UFA
Primeau - Trade (Brind'amour)
Handzus - Trade (Boucher)
Lapointe - Trade (late round pick)
Sharp - draft pick

Recchi - Trade (Zubrus)
Amonte - Trade (prospects and draft picks)
Comrie - Trade (Woywitka & #1)
Kapanen - Trade (Brendl)
Fedoruk (draft pick)

LeClair - Trade (Recchi)
Gagne - draft pick
Brashear - Trade (Brendl)
Somik - draft pick

Desjardins - Trade (Recchi)
Johnsson - Trade (Lindros)
Markov - Trade (Williams)
Ragnarsson - Trade (McGillis)
Weinrich - UFA
Therien - draft pick
Pitkanen - draft pick/trade (Fedotenko & two 2nds)
Vandermmer - draft pick
Seidenberg - draft pick


Esche - Trade (Boucher)
Hackett - UFA

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01-27-2004, 09:21 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
But please don't use derogatory type of stuff like catagorizing me as a "newbie"
But you ARE new here!

That's all that's meant by it.. And since you were suggesting that those trades were not slammed at the time, when indeed they were by the majority here, the "newbie" not getting "laced" into was applicable.. Post count means nothing, and nobody cares who's played the game more, or at what level..

You seem like a quality addition to the board, so welcome in that sense, but get ready for disagreements.. There will be many more to come, and very rarely does anyone here agree most of the time.. This time, regarding Sather, most are in agreement that his ship has run its course, and is looonnng overdue for dry dock.. No shame in having a different opinion, but like anyone else, be ready to defend it..

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01-27-2004, 11:42 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
And Dedalus, we can disagree...that's fine. But please don't use derogatory type of stuff like catagorizing me as a "newbie" or that your "giving me a break" by not lacing into me.....OK?. I dunno how old you are or how long you have suffered being a Ranger fan but I'm 41 years young and have been a Ranger fan going on 34 years now(since 1970)....I've probably either watched live or been to 90% of the Ranger games that have been played over that time(and I'm married with two kids....not easy to do that my friend).....I played the game for many years both roller and ice when I moved out of the Brooklyn to Rockland County and I've participated in fantasy hockey the past 6 years in a big money auction league and have two titles and a couple of money of finishes to my name. I don't say this to brag but rather to state to you, that I'm no "newbie" as you state.

I know my hockey and know what I'm talking about ....
All that's wonderful and if my calling you a newbie had anything to do with the evaluation of Sather or even hockey at large, you might have a valid point. If you read my post carefully, however, you'll see that my reference to the fact that you're new around here in no way refers to what you say about Sather or the Rangers. Even a cursory reading should show you that my remark was addressed to your assertion that the posters here criticized trades only in hindsight. Since you weren't here for many of those trades, you're clearly speaking in ignorance. You may not be a newbie to hockey, but you are most certainly one to these boards. Therefore, while you may talk hockey all you wish, you would be wise not to discuss the posters on this board and their thoughts on hockey long before you ever arrived. Eh?

And as a side note implying that people are liars certainly doesn't help your reputation either. You may indeed "find it VERY hard to believe that the majority of folks on this board DID NOT want us to pick up PBure,ELindros and AKovalev," but at least four of us have assured you that this is the case. You may do with those assurances what you like.


Quote:
Did you ever think that maybe I wanted to start a good debate about the subject and felt like taking that position cause it would be much different one than most Ranger fans are taking these days to see what kind of response occured.
That's perfectly okay with me. I'll talk hockey any time, but as I wrote above, the part of your post that really drove my ire did not concern hockey. It concerned posters here at HF and your presumption of their thoughts, opinions, and feelings.

You'll see that where you talked about hockey in your original post, I replied about hockey.

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01-27-2004, 11:43 PM
  #38
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oops! Re-post!

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01-28-2004, 12:01 AM
  #39
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i wonder if any gm could perform the job as well as neil smith did. he only overpaid for guys (fleury quntal, etc etc) when dolan wanted him too. perhaps sather is a highly paid puppet now. perhaps sather will resign at the end of this year. i totally see maximus point if you look at everything besides the rangers record sather had done a decent job. if you look at the rangers record he has done an awful job. as bill parcells says "u are what your record says you are" i loved the sather hiring i thought sather was the perfect coach for this team but this is it for him. he needs to make the playoffs to survive

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01-28-2004, 12:15 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
i loved the sather hiring i thought sather was the perfect coach for this team
And so did I and many others. I remember specifically posting: "This guy is old school. He's not going to tolerate half-assed efforts, and stars aren't going to get the star treatment anymore."

Pfft! How wrong was I????

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01-28-2004, 01:45 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Maximus915

And I find it VERY hard to believe that the majority of folks on this board DID NOT want us to pick up PBure,ELindros and AKovalev when we were having all sorts of problems scoring goals and we were right in the midst of the playoff hunt.....very hard to believe. And now once again the doomsdayers are saying the Jagr for ACarter deal stinks and that Sather is a jerk for picking up a 4 million dollar stud fwd for the playoff run......what a load of crap.

We just find it really easy to place blame and why not Sather. But the bottom line is and remains, the pieces are in place for us to make the playoffs......a little tinkering here by Slats to pick up another Dman...maybe trade for a Khabby and with Devries and Kasper coming back, I like our chances.....



Maximus, the majorit of the people on this board were against us picking up Bure and Lindros. Don't be insulted by being called a newbie. But don't insult us that have been around for a while by telling us what we probably thought.

I believe that everything that happens to you, good and bad, is your fault. I think alot of this mess of a team is Sathers fault. Sure he stole AK and PB, because they were salary dumps. Sather never made a trade for a first round pick. He never traded for younger stars on the block (Allison, Peca, Comrie, just to name a few). He always blew money on slobs like karpa and ulanov (whom EVERYBODY ON THE BOARD WAS AGAINST, well most of them, then everybody after week 1) instead of schnieder and boughner.

After his first year (where he basically did nothing, he couldn't with the mess he inheritited) he had a team with potential at the blue with all the good prospects there playing well (smrek, mottau, and klouchek) with leetch, johnson, and some extra crap, a mess of fowards with the chech line, fluery, york, malhotra and mess.

THERE WAS HIS OPPROTUNITY TO REBUILD!!!!!!!!! we take Blackburn, yes good goalie coming. lets sign one good defensemen (boughner really would have been great) and build from the net out. instead we some how let our rookies development be wasted, trade for lindros which i didn't like. johnson is a good defenseman and he would have been a mainstay for years here. i would love to have johnson now. he played three solid years for us. brendl could have been used to bring in someone like peca, a great role player or even just a 2nd round pick would have been fine. hlavac definetly fell apart after he was traded but no one knows what hed be like still here.

then he goes crazy at the deadline and blows it by trading for poti, AND EVERYONE HATED THAT ONE. i thought the team might have a chance so i supported the bure trade, and pavel is the most exciting player ever, but i was wrong. my brain wasnt thinking and either was sathers. we lost out on a 1st round pick we could have used or traded for younger talent.

the point being sather has had the opprotunity to build he just didnt take it. he kept signing people, clogging up the roster so the young guys had no spots to compete for. he never once left a spot open for a prospect or young guy to have a chance at. even when the prospects did well. hes terrible dude. he is just terrible.

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01-28-2004, 03:48 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
And so did I and many others. I remember specifically posting: "This guy is old school. He's not going to tolerate half-assed efforts, and stars aren't going to get the star treatment anymore."

Pfft! How wrong was I????

I liked the Sather signing as well when it came down. I thought that he was going to build a team like he did in Edmonton through the draft and trades. And then he could use Cablevision money to keep the players (and add the occasional free agent) when he would have moved those player in Edmonton because of their salaries.

But he didn't do any of that.

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01-28-2004, 05:06 AM
  #43
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I think Slats has done an unbelievable job bringing in great talent to this team. I also like the goaltending and tough guys with talent like Barnaby and Simon. Slats has truely done a great job building up a roster of solid veteran players, but I have to give Slats a big fat F for coaches he has hired along with the lengthy delay in giving them the axe (including himself). He has terrible judgement when it comes to picking the right coach for this job. He had a chance to get Ken Hitchcock and Pat Burns and he passed up on both for stupid political reasons. I guess he was afraid that he wouldn't be able to pull their strings like he did with Trottier and Low. He really just has no clue how to address the Rangers coaching situation and that has been the big problem.

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01-28-2004, 05:36 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
90 million dollar payroll
.500 team
0 blue chippers

hmm

i think that all you really need to say. (maybe add "NYR career all-time" for line 2, just to drive the point home)

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01-28-2004, 06:02 AM
  #45
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here...

I think Lindros wasn't a bad move here

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidClown
Eric Lindros and future considerations aquired for Pavel Brendl,Jan Hlavac, Kim Johnsson 2003 3rd round pick. - this move made me and alot of other people sick.....Jan was the least of the problems.... Kim was a nice and up coming offensive minded dman that had the skill to probably play 2nd pair on the Rangers, Brendl at the time had a value that was VERY VERY high.... granted he never panned out but no one knew about this at the time...
The fact that Brendl didn't pan out, or rather, hasn't panned out yet, wasn't a "fluke" imo...there *were* a few questions about him even when he was traded, yes, he was a statistical MONSTER in juniors, but, I remember people raising questions about why he played three straight years in the juniors without ever being promoted, speculation was that it was maybe because it would hurt his value, that the Rangers brass possibly saw something in him from his play day in and day out that made them know he wouldn't succeed...whether this speculation was true, who the heck knows, but if the Rangers management actually expected him to be the next Bure they might have been less inclined to trade him, so you can't quite fault them for possibly making a great talent decision and keeping a guy's prospect value very high by not promoting him to the next level...its at least feasable that this is what happened...Johnsson was lost in this trade, but he was the only thing of value...

Yes, Eric played poorly last year, but only by his standards... he was afraid of getting hit and the player on the ice last year is what everybody expected from eric his whole time here...
The FLY line was INCREDIBLE though, his first year, and he crushed most people's expectations...
This year he has been a trooper, he has shown some leadership qualities, he has brought his best game or near it night in and night out, he has quietly criticized sather, and played hard no matter who his linemates have been, or whether he's been playing right wing on the third line, it hasn't mattered...he's tried to get this team to show some energy...He tried to spark them in the preseason by standing up to Stevens in the crease, and he tried to spark them by whooping Joe Thornton, he's been our best offensive weapon...

There are a lot of Sather GM moves you can criticize, paying $9 mil for Holik I think is the biggest, losing York hurt...Kaspar was overpaid for...and the coaches, as everybody else has been saying, were terrible moves...bringing Eric in was not one of those mistakes...

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01-28-2004, 01:23 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
All that's wonderful and if my calling you a newbie had anything to do with the evaluation of Sather or even hockey at large, you might have a valid point. If you read my post carefully, however, you'll see that my reference to the fact that you're new around here in no way refers to what you say about Sather or the Rangers. Even a cursory reading should show you that my remark was addressed to your assertion that the posters here criticized trades only in hindsight. Since you weren't here for many of those trades, you're clearly speaking in ignorance. You may not be a newbie to hockey, but you are most certainly one to these boards. Therefore, while you may talk hockey all you wish, you would be wise not to discuss the posters on this board and their thoughts on hockey long before you ever arrived. Eh?


Point duly noted Dedalus and my apologies for my feathers getting ruffled at the "newbie" remark. Was indicating disbelief that most Ranger fans didn't like those pickups for Lindros,Bure and Kovalev cause in the circles I walk in, most Ranger heads did like those pickups. But, like you say, I wasn't here at HFBoards and so I do not know specifically how most of y'all felt. And so maybe I should have clarified things better......Anyways, like I said duly noted.

And as a side note implying that people are liars certainly doesn't help your reputation either. You may indeed "find it VERY hard to believe that the majority of folks on this board DID NOT want us to pick up PBure,ELindros and AKovalev," but at least four of us have assured you that this is the case. You may do with those assurances what you like.


As I said above, not implying anyone was "lying" here at HF about their negative stances towards the Bure,Lindros and Kovie signings.....simply disbelief that all were against it. But as I also said, I should have clarified and been more clear that most Ranger fans I KNOW were for those signings.....once again, "no blood no foul"....




That's perfectly okay with me. I'll talk hockey any time, but as I wrote above, the part of your post that really drove my ire did not concern hockey. It concerned posters here at HF and your presumption of their thoughts, opinions, and feelings.

I hear ya and no intention of presuming what y'all thought and so I'll be more careful in my "words"....

You'll see that where you talked about hockey in your original post, I replied about hockey.
Sounds good to me.....cheers


-Max

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01-28-2004, 01:25 PM
  #47
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Johnsson was lost in this trade, but he was the only thing of value...
No, this is the thinking I keep trying to correct. Johnsson was the only thing of current value that was traded.

Let me ask you something, rr. What would you trade for a 25 year old left wing who, in his most recent seasons (his first two in the NHL), had posted 47 goals and 106 points? I think you'd put a premium on that kind of scoring, especially when you consider that it's greater than the production than Mike York put up in his first two years.

The winger I described above is Jan Hlavac at the time he was traded to Philly. Please don't tell me that Jan Hlavac had no value because it's simply not true. Hlavac had quite good value. Possibly better than York's at the time.

On Brendl, you yourself called his prospect value "very high" at the time of the trade. That value, like the 25 year old LWer's above, was redeemed for an older, damaged center who had a well-established reputation in Philly for taking more than his fair share of nights off. (And IMO a third round pick always has value.) Whether Brendl and Hlavac maintained their value or not, the fact remains that Sather could have spent the high value they had then on someone young, healthy, and hitched to a contract beyond three years. Someone who hadn't repeatedly expressed the desire to play for an organization other than the New York Rangers.

But Sather didn't choose that. He chose to send all those chips for Eriv Lindros. The same Eric Lindros who is far more likely to leave for Toronto next year than stay in New York. And what, then, will Sather have gotten for four good trading chips?

Trading for Eric Lindros was a move that entirely lacked foresight on Glen Sather's part.

Quote:
Yes, Eric played poorly last year, but only by his standards
In the 81 games he played, Eric Lindros put up 19 goals and 53 points. That put him 82nd in the league in scoring, behind offensive monsters like Vinny Prospal, Ray Whitney, Brad Richards, Andrew Cassels, Cory Stillman, Olli Jokinen, Mike Johnson, Todd White, Todd Marchant, Mike Knuble, Craig Conroy, Scott Mellanby, and Jason Blake. he managed to score the same number of points as Dan Boyle, the Tampa defenseman who played 4 fewer games than did Lindros.

C'mon, rr. That's a mediocre season by anyone's standards.

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01-28-2004, 01:26 PM
  #48
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Everybody talks about the Lindros trade and they are hot to point out that Brendl, Hlavac and Johnsson havent been so successful. What people overlook is that Brendl had higher value then, so did Hlavac and Johnsson was the only one who you can say improved. Rather than trading two chips/assets in Hlavac and Brendl plus Johnsson for Lindros...there was the opportunity to use them in other deals and make the team stronger.

What might've happened if we used that package to land a first/second and a prospect? What about just adding draftpicks?

What stinks is that Sather is our GM and he doesnt even GM properly. Does Glen even know about any players not making 5+ million? He doesnt put forth any effort in building his team rather than going for the quick fix offensive star.

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01-28-2004, 01:57 PM
  #49
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Who knows the real value...

of those guys that went for Lindros. Now, let me first say that I don't want to get into an analysis of the trade, but I will talk about the parts.

Johnsson was nothing special as a Ranger, IMO. He was a 5/6 defenseman, not much more than that here. Had good wheels, but wasn't overly physical, often caught out of position, and had a shot that went wide more often than not. A prototypical Ranger defenseman, surprised Sather let him go. In Philly, he had the support of a good system where big bodies came back and helped out, a good defensive partner, and a good goalie. On his own, he's no great shakes.

Hlavac had some trade value, but he was a soft, one-dimensional winger who needed the help of other to open up the ice for him and create a lot. Was there a lot of value in that? Well, the Flyers org. didn't have room for him in their top 6 from the get-go (although I think they wanted to try him with fellow Czech Dopita to get immediate chemistry - and he was able to retun Brashear, which is what you can say Hlavac's value was).

Brendl had speculative value, but not a lot. Not sure what you pay for a prospect a couple years removed from being picked #4 overall and having a few not-so-great camps in the bigs, including the first one which I thought was downright pitiful. Reports of being lazy, out of shape, etc. didn't help either. I would actually put more value to the #3 pick given up in the trade than Brendl and am more broken up about that than Brendl.

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01-28-2004, 02:01 PM
  #50
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TKlooch...

not sure anybody would've given up their first pick and a prospect for a package that had those three. There were three players, but none of them were worth given up a potential 'superstar' in you #1 pick, plus getting a prospect out of the deal. I think we exaggerate their value at the time (me still thinking that Johnsson had little and Hlavac, despite his scoring prowess, didn't have a heck of a lot either).

I won't argue the inference that Sather's an idiot though. I would say he does know of players making under $5 million...heck, he's active on the waiver wire, but unfortunately does little with those guys. He tries to sign 21-22 year old UFAs, but can't do it. Would've loved to've gotten Comrie or other young guys, but doesn't have the trading chips (both because he started out with little in that regard, and that he's done little to get some).

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