HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Hockey Talk by Country > Finland
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Joonas Lehtivuori

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-02-2008, 12:03 AM
  #1
Chainsaw
Registered User
 
Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,795
vCash: 500
Joonas Lehtivuori

Whats people's opinion on Joonas Lehtivuori. Any reports would be much appreciated

Chainsaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 03:48 AM
  #2
Tormentor
Registered User
 
Tormentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Too Far
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver_Flyers_fan View Post
Whats people's opinion on Joonas Lehtivuori. Any reports would be much appreciated
His game has surely improved from last season and he already is a pretty good offensive defense man in the Finnish Elite league, but I think his overall game needs quite a lot of work before he can start dreaming of NHL. I also believe that it would be better for his development to stay in Finland for a another season to polish his skills, improve his physical attributes and consistency before moving to AHL.

stats:
39gp 7g+12a=19p (seventh best in his team and second in defenders)
(+/-)=+4 (tied second in his team)
only five two min penalties = total of 10min
average time on ice per game = 15:54 min (this stat is not accurate)

Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 11:04 AM
  #3
HalfOfFame*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Espoo
Posts: 483
vCash: 500
very potential nhl 1st-2nd pairing dman

HalfOfFame* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 12:52 PM
  #4
Tormentor
Registered User
 
Tormentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Too Far
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
very potential nhl 1st-2nd pairing dman
In my opinion that is an optimistic estimation, because he is still a far away from achieving that. I'm not saying that he won't/can't make it, but still he has a long and hard road ahead of him before playing in the NHL in a role like that.

Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 02:47 PM
  #5
HalfOfFame*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Espoo
Posts: 483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
In my opinion that is an optimistic estimation, because he is still a far away from achieving that. I'm not saying that he won't/can't make it, but still he has a long and hard road ahead of him before playing in the NHL in a role like that.
If he is in sm-liiga next season, he will make 30-40 points, dmen usually grow in their prime in little bit older age, especially finns. i dont understand wat u see as on obstacle to him, he is also responsible defensively not only with his great skills to bring the puck to the attacting zone.

He will have a big role in Philly's defense

HalfOfFame* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 03:00 PM
  #6
Chainsaw
Registered User
 
Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,795
vCash: 500
Thank you people.

Chainsaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 04:52 PM
  #7
Tormentor
Registered User
 
Tormentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Too Far
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
If he is in sm-liiga next season, he will make 30-40 points
Likely, if he stays healthy and keeps developing at this pace as he has done this past year, but as I said it would be best for his development to stay for a another season in Finland and make a real breakthrough here. Do you disagree and if, why? (by the way has he even started/carried out his military service yet?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
dmen usually grow in their prime in little bit older age
Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
i dont understand wat u see as on obstacle to him
No big obstacles other than the fact that there is a lot to be done before he's in the NHL playing in a big role. A lot of things will happen and some of them might not be that positive. Another thing is that he is not that tall(by NHL standards 6feet tall defender is a small one) and he needs to have a lot more strength before he will be able to handle NHL forwards. To become a lot stronger you usually have to add weight and that is a delicate process and it might hurt your movement and agility if done wrong(just one of the things that could go wrong). All in all most of the players don't reach their maximum potential and there might be an obstacle hiding in the future that will be too big to overcome(might not even be hockey related).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
he is also responsible defensively
Playing a good and responsible defensive game in the NHL in 1st/2nd pairing role is very different from that in the SM-liiga. So there is a lot of work to be done and as I said things don't always go as planned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
He will have a big role in Philly's defense
I wish I could be as sure of it as you seem to be.

Overall Finland hasn't produced that many great defenders lately, so I really hope that he makes it.

Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 05:42 PM
  #8
Joretus
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,313
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
Playing a good and responsible defensive game in the NHL in 1st/2nd pairing role is very different from that in the SM-liiga. So there is a lot of work to be done and as I said things don't always go as planned.
Again it seems HoF overrating finnish prospects/players. These(="very potential 1st-2nd potential" "big part of philly defense" ) kind of text goes for same category as "Leino will be for sure 1st/2nd line center in NHL without problems".

Still there is a lot bigger gap between SM-liiga and NHL than most of finnish ppl seems to see. You can be very dominate in SM-liiga, but you can be total zero in NHL or even less than zero. You have to have so much more complete package or at least some ares SO much better than most of players in NHL that you would make it in big role in NHL.

Just seeing how dominant Ville Peltonen were in SM-liiga and he is "just decent" in NHL, well that should tell something between the skill-levels in these two leagues.

Joretus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2008, 08:25 PM
  #9
HalfOfFame*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Espoo
Posts: 483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joretus View Post
Again it seems HoF overrating finnish prospects/players. These(="very potential 1st-2nd potential" "big part of philly defense" ) kind of text goes for same category as "Leino will be for sure 1st/2nd line center in NHL without problems".

Still there is a lot bigger gap between SM-liiga and NHL than most of finnish ppl seems to see. You can be very dominate in SM-liiga, but you can be total zero in NHL or even less than zero. You have to have so much more complete package or at least some ares SO much better than most of players in NHL that you would make it in big role in NHL.

Just seeing how dominant Ville Peltonen were in SM-liiga and he is "just decent" in NHL, well that should tell something between the skill-levels in these two leagues.
The main thing you are trying to say is that there is a long way to go being a prospect in sm-liiga and becoming nhl player. YES, true, but the fact is that the same thing goes with every other player playing in this league. no one is perfect. i just see a huge potential for example in guys like leino and lehtivuori, huge potential always brings huge chances. everyone needs to develope something, im just trying to be optimistic, that is the way i write.

HalfOfFame* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-03-2008, 01:38 AM
  #10
Phenomenon
Registered User
 
Phenomenon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,155
vCash: 500
Lehtivuori has played great and is at the moment the no 1 puck-moving defenceman in his team. He is already a really mature player and it is very hard to find any serious deficiencies in his game. He has potential to make it in NHL, but he has still the military service ahead of him etc. (if he does not pull "the Olli Jokinen card") and as we have seen that 6 months can be crucial to the development. He also needs more experience from a big and hpe he gets to play +20 min next year in the first pair.

I also see more potential in him than in for example Niskala, and at least similar as in Koistinen or Laakso. To have potential does not mean that he would be ready to play there at the moment, but that he has the tools (basic skill level, vision and mentality) to make it big and that the development curve looks promising. Of course it means a lot of work especially to improve the physical strength, but that should not be so difficult (Ilves has BTW an excellent coach in charge of physical conditioning). The breakthrough also requires always a little help from the Gods in Olympos mountain to be in the right place in the right time.


Last edited by Phenomenon: 02-03-2008 at 01:52 AM.
Phenomenon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-03-2008, 04:57 AM
  #11
Tormentor
Registered User
 
Tormentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Too Far
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenon View Post
I also see more potential in him than in for example Niskala, and at least similar as in Koistinen or Laakso. To have potential does not mean that he would be ready to play there at the moment, but that he has the tools (basic skill level, vision and mentality) to make it big and that the development curve looks promising.
Agreed, Lehtivuori's game is on a lot higher level than Niskala's and Koistinen's game was at the same age and as he is still inexperienced and physically immature there surely is room for a great development, and I would choose Lehtivuori over Laakso ten times out of ten. Laakso hasn't displayed any great development in his offensive game during the past two seasons.

Development curve sure looks promising and he sure has a lot of talent and potential, but lets hope that his development stays on this present path and there are no setbacks. Perttu Lindgren had a great season two years ago as a even younger player in the SM-liiga, but since then his game has not improved at a pace we all hoped for.

Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-03-2008, 05:50 AM
  #12
HalfOfFame*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Espoo
Posts: 483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Development curve sure looks promising and he sure has a lot of talent and potential, but lets hope that his development stays on this present path and there are no setbacks. Perttu Lindgren had a great season two years ago as a even younger player in the SM-liiga, but since then his game has not improved at a pace we all hoped for.
he is playing very good season in ahl, eventhought the beginning of the season was lazy. he is getting pretty much points right now

HalfOfFame* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-03-2008, 06:11 AM
  #13
Tormentor
Registered User
 
Tormentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Too Far
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfOfFame View Post
he is playing very good season in ahl, eventhought the beginning of the season was lazy. he is getting pretty much points right now
I was not talking about point production. I was talking about his development and it has been slower than at least I anticipated and I'm not saying that Lindgren won't be a great player(he already is a pretty good one), because he still is a good prospect.

Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2008, 02:19 PM
  #14
Ginger28
Registered User
 
Ginger28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 48
vCash: 500
Will he come to North America soon?

Ginger28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2008, 03:10 PM
  #15
ES
Registered User
 
ES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 2,649
vCash: 500
Philadelphia has to sign contract next summer and surely they will do so. But I can't see him making NHL next year, so he will return to Ilves for one more year. Just like Lindgren (Dal/Ilves) year ago, Laakso (Nsh/HIFK) and Lehtonen (Bos/Blues) this season after signing 3-year-contracts.

ES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2008, 11:30 PM
  #16
edd1e
Registered User
 
edd1e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ES View Post
Philadelphia has to sign contract next summer and surely they will do so. But I can't see him making NHL next year, so he will return to Ilves for one more year. Just like Lindgren (Dal/Ilves) year ago, Laakso (Nsh/HIFK) and Lehtonen (Bos/Blues) this season after signing 3-year-contracts.
I agree. If things go the right way, mayby he'll end up as another Timonen clone.

edd1e is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2008, 03:51 AM
  #17
Panopticon
Registered User
 
Panopticon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 4,933
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
I would choose Lehtivuori over Laakso ten times out of ten. Laakso hasn't displayed any great development in his offensive game during the past two seasons.
Laakso is not an offensive defenseman. Look at his numbers in the juniors or anywhere. His A-junior point record is 9 points (3+6 and 5+4, although the latter in only 20 games) and he was basically a leading d-man back then on his team. Lehtivuori has 25 points in A-juniors when he was the same age. That's only to point that Lehtivuori has not developed past Laakso offensively, he's always been ahead there. That's just not what Laakso's game is about.

When Laakso was first scouted for his draft, he was even ranked to go in the first round, until injuries (and an ******* coach who played him despite his injuries to only make them worse) screwed up his last U18 WJC (and the rest of that season as well) and dropped him in the rankings. Now, Laakso didn't score that much then, why were the scouts so high on him back then? Why did he receive a lot of praise for his training camp appearance despite his lack of offense? Why does he get more ice time than more offensively talented d-men (outside of Heikkinen and sometimes Pikkarainen)? And why is Laakso playing through this season for HIFK despite being constantly injured (according to very reliable rumors at least), while others get to rest and heal their injuries? I mean, he's a 20-year-old kid who rarely scores, he can't be that important...

Well, you can pick Lehtivuori over him, that's your choice, my only point here is that offense isn't everything, especially not for defensemen.

Panopticon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2008, 05:48 AM
  #18
Tormentor
Registered User
 
Tormentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Too Far
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
Laakso is not an offensive defenseman.
I agree, he's a good all-around defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
Look at his numbers in the juniors or anywhere. His A-junior point record is 9 points (3+6 and 5+4, although the latter in only 20 games) and he was basically a leading d-man back then on his team.
Those are good numbers for juniorB aged player in ASM and you don't see them often. Laakso played well in a fairly offensive role in two World junior championship's:
Team Finland WJC 06 7gp 3g+1a=4p +7
Team Finland WJC 07 6gp 3g+2a=5p +3

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
Lehtivuori has 25 points in A-juniors when he was the same age. That's only to point that Lehtivuori has not developed past Laakso offensively, he's always been ahead there. That's just not what Laakso's game is about.
Yep, but Lehtivuori played the whole season in ASM and that usually increases your points per game average as you are more familiar with your teammates and team tactics: 39gp 9g+16a=25p (0.64 ppga) Laakso: 20gp 5g+4a=9p (0.45 ppga)
-> Not that radical difference in such a small sample period, but then again I wasn't saying that Laakso would be an offensive D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
When Laakso was first scouted for his draft, he was even ranked to go in the first round, until injuries (and an ******* coach who played him despite his injuries to only make them worse) screwed up his last U18 WJC (and the rest of that season as well) and dropped him in the rankings.
I have a hard time believing that a player would play through an injury without his own approval, so it probably was Laakso's own ambition that's to blame here in to some extend as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
Now, Laakso didn't score that much then, why were the scouts so high on him back then?
Scouts are always high on players that play in WJC as a juniorB aged players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
Why does he get more ice time than more offensively talented d-men (outside of Heikkinen and sometimes Pikkarainen)? And why is Laakso playing through this season for HIFK despite being constantly injured (according to very reliable rumors at least), while others get to rest and heal their injuries? I mean, he's a 20-year-old kid who rarely scores, he can't be that important...
Laakso is a good player and he has more offensive talent than an average SM-liiga defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroSennin View Post
Well, you can pick Lehtivuori over him, that's your choice, my only point here is that offense isn't everything, especially not for defensemen.
My intention wasn't to diss Laakso, but if his offensive game doesn't improve he won't be anything more than an undersized stay-at-home defender in the NHL(à la Lasse Kukkonen) and there isn't a big market for them. Lehtivuori has IMO a better change of becoming an offensive D in the NHL and that's why I would pick him as this kind of players are more valuable and rare.

Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2008, 06:08 AM
  #19
Phenomenon
Registered User
 
Phenomenon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,155
vCash: 500
Actually Lehtivuori is not exactly profiled as an offensive oriented defenseman and his point production in juniors has been ok, but not so spectacular (36 points in 54 junior A games).
http://www.ilves.com/lehtivuori.php

He is more like an allround puck-moving QB, who has no serious deficiensies in his game, although you do not see him tackle a lot. He does not avoid the physical situations though, but as a smart player he knows that it is more useful to go to the battle in areas where your own weapons are superior to your opponent´s ones. He has lead his team in plusminus throughout the season clearly (+9, when as a comparison Tukio is -9 and Jääskeläinen -12) and is at the same moment no 1 amongst Ilves defenseman in goals (8).

Laakso and Lehtivuori are both good prospects and it is very hard to say which has more potential, because their style of play and projected career role are different. I think Lehtivuori reads the game and skates better than Laakso, but Laakso is physically more ready and better in one-on-one situations in the defensive zone. Both have to work with their shot and passing.

Lehtivuori has not done his conscript service yet, so I guess he´ll spend at least one or two seasons in Finland. A lot depends, however, on the new IIHF - NHL transfer agreement.

Phenomenon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2008, 06:32 AM
  #20
Panopticon
Registered User
 
Panopticon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 4,933
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
I have a hard time believing that a player would play through an injury without his own approval, so it probably was Laakso's own ambition that's to blame here in to some extend as well.
That's true, but when the player is 17, I'd say the coach and the team doctor have the bigger responsibility there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
My intention wasn't to diss Laakso, but if his offensive game doesn't improve he won't be anything more than an undersized stay-at-home defender in the NHL(à la Lasse Kukkonen) and there isn't a big market for them. Lehtivuori has IMO a better change of becoming an offensive D in the NHL and that's why I would pick him as this kind of players are more valuable and rare.
There isn't a big market, but it's mostly because of idiotic GMs who keep playing (and paying for) total pylons like Steve McCarthy and Garnet Exelby for example (Atlanta), instead of trading for a guy like Kukkonen who is better defensively and probably offensively as well than those guys and doesn't get much ice time on his current team. Kukkonen would be basically a top 2 defenseman on the Atlanta team this year, but instead he's stuck in Philly (and even there he's stuck behind worse d-men). The same goes for Laakso and Nashville. He won't make the roster there, but could have a better chance if he were to be traded to another team.

I'm not that high on Lehtivuori even if he has had a pretty good season in the SM-liiga offensively and is leading his team in +/-. It's just that every time I've seen him he hasn't been that great. Obviously I have only seen him at two WJCs and a few games against HIFK, so a small sample. There's always a chance that he will pull a Koistinen and stick, but it's more likely IMO that he will pull a Mäenpää/Vallin.

But I do see your point, and agree with it to a certain extent. And I'm also not trying to start a debate here between the two, I just perhaps overreacted a bit there and got a bit defensive. It just annoys me when people just look at offensive production to determine the quality of a player, but you obviously had a point behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenon View Post
I think Lehtivuori reads the game and skates better than Laakso, but Laakso is physically more ready and better in one-on-one situations in the defensive zone. Both have to work with their shot and passing.
I think Laakso's skating is underrated. He rarely uses his speed, though, and perhaps isn't as smooth a skater as Lehtivuori and others, but he does have speed when he needs to use it. He even managed to stop a Jani Rita breakaway once even though Rita had a few steps on him (he didn't catch him, but managed to get close enough and dived and poked the puck away). I don't know about reading the game, but I wouldn't call it a weakness of Laakso's either. Shot and passing I do agree with, which is funny because especially his shot used to be one of Laakso's biggest weapons. Now he rarely uses it and when he does he rarely shoots as well as he used to. Passing and certain mental aspects (bravery, confidence, etc.) are definitely Laakso's biggest weaknesses.

But, enough about Laakso in this thread.


Last edited by Panopticon: 03-04-2008 at 06:49 AM.
Panopticon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.