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Just Curious...Brewer for Gionta?

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Old
02-02-2008, 01:45 AM
  #1
mmitchell19
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Just Curious...Brewer for Gionta?

On the Trade Rumors board, NJ fans are fielding offers for Brian Gionta.

Would you, my fellow Blues fans, be willing to part with #4 for Gionta...straight up (or with minor considerations thrown in on either side)?

The money / cap hit is roughly even (BG - $4m/yr, EB - $4.25/yr) for this year and next...Gionta is UFA after next year, while Brewer is signed for three more years.

From my amateurish perspective...

Pros:
- I've always liked Gionta...think he'd be dynamite with AMac and Boyes
- Conversely, I'm not a big Brewer backer...this would free up a spot for one of Wagner, Woywitka, or Polak for '08-'09.

Cons:
- Is Brewer too much to give up on our back line for next year, considering the possible loss of Jackman and/or Salvador?
- Is this getting good value for Brewer? Or does Oshie fill the potential Gionta role next year, and Brewer add value to our backline that we couldn't add or replace for the same money?

What say you?

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02-02-2008, 02:00 AM
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BluesDarb
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I could go either way on this deal. I like Gionta, but I'm troubled by his dropoff the last 2 years...

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02-02-2008, 02:31 AM
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rumrokh
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Brewer has had his ups and downs, but other than EJ, he and Salvador have been head and shoulders above the rest of the defense. Even if they are ready for the NHL, you can't replace your top defensive pairing with all guys who haven't even played a full NHL season.

The Blues will have to give raises to a handful of RFA's, so it's unlikely that they'll hang on to all their UFA's, which include Jackman and Salvador. Trading Brewer would put the Blues in a difficult spot regarding one of those two guys because it means that the Blues want to sign one or both of them all the more - giving the players contract leverage. And since the Blues are still in re-build mode and are on the cusp of re-entering the playoffs, would Jackman and/or Salvador be signed to short deals to hold the team over? Or would you be counting on long-term play out of them?
A team full of short-term deals is at the mercy of other general managers because they either have to let the guys go (and get no return ), or you have to trade them away to teams who KNOW you have to do so - you simply cannot re-sign every guy every couple of years. This is bad for financial reasons, but it's also crappy for team morale and establishing firm leadership and consistent efforts.

Gionta is only signed for one more year. That's also when McDonald, Tkachuk, Legace, and Backman are all up for unrestricted free agency. Do you just assume they'll be able to trade, extend, or replace them? With the path the Blues' management has taken, they won't leave those things up to chance. And the youngsters on the team won't be ready to take the yoke that quickly. Maybe a couple of them, but not enough. That is precisely why the Blues signed Brewer and McKee when they could. It gives them a strong base around which to work and it gives them leverage when moving free-agents-to-be and so forth. A guy like Brewer provides as much for the Blues just in that capacity as Gionta will on the scoresheet.

Besides, do you really want three of your top six to be McDonald, Kariya, and Gionta? I admire speed, but these guys get frickin' squashed.

But most of all, Gionta kinda isn't that great. He's a good scorer, especially on the powerplay, but his point totals aren't that great the past two years and I think they'd be noticeably lower in the West. And I'm confident Brewer would actually get a better return.

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Old
02-02-2008, 11:57 AM
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Over the last 2 months, Brewer has been playing like a #1 defensemen. He is also signed at a reasonable price for several years. It would be a mistake to move him if he continues to play like this. However, if he returns to the way he was playing in the first two months of the season, this would be a good deal.

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02-02-2008, 03:07 PM
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I think Backman is the guy that is going to get moved....probably for a pick or consideration

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02-02-2008, 04:07 PM
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StLooFrenchy
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Brewer's play is getting better by the game, now is not the time to maximize value for him. I like Gionta, but if Brews keeps up his heady game, he is > Gionta.

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02-02-2008, 04:44 PM
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PerryTurnbullfan
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If we were to get Gionta for Brewer, then I would do it in a heart beat. No, he is not playing like a #1 defenseman. He is playing like a top 4 defenseman. He doesn't put any points up. He is just playing pretty solid D right now. It would weaken us to trade him, but I would look to sign a good #1 or #2 d-man or trade for one. We still lack in that department.

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02-02-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
If we were to get Gionta for Brewer, then I would do it in a heart beat. No, he is not playing like a #1 defenseman. He is playing like a top 4 defenseman. He doesn't put any points up. He is just playing pretty solid D right now. It would weaken us to trade him, but I would look to sign a good #1 or #2 d-man or trade for one. We still lack in that department.



He has been playing the minutes and in the situations of a number 1 defenseman and despite being forced into a tougher job than he should have, is doing a bang-up job. If we move Brewer, who do we try to make play as our number 1 defenseman? No other Blue on this team could. Unless we have another trade lined up immediately to fill that spot, if you make this deal, the season is pretty much over.


Brewer has been our best defenseman over the last 20 or so games by a pretty wide margin. I know that the "trade Brewer" crap was in fashion a while ago, but seriously it's time to get over it.

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02-02-2008, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by StLooFrenchy View Post
Brewer's play is getting better by the game, now is not the time to maximize value for him. I like Gionta, but if Brews keeps up his heady game, he is > Gionta.
Agreed!

Perry- Do we really need Gionta? Cause I do not really see him as much as an upgrade, especially at that price. I would rather that space be a spot for an up-'n-comer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post


He has been playing the minutes and in the situations of a number 1 defenseman and despite being forced into a tougher job than he should have, is doing a bang-up job. If we move Brewer, who do we try to make play as our number 1 defenseman? No other Blue on this team could. Unless we have another trade lined up immediately to fill that spot, if you make this deal, the season is pretty much over.
Also..agree!

P.S. I am by no means a Brewer fan, nor do I say he is a #1 d-man.

We really do need a #1 guy though!

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02-02-2008, 05:09 PM
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StLooFrenchy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post



He has been playing the minutes and in the situations of a number 1 defenseman and despite being forced into a tougher job than he should have, is doing a bang-up job. If we move Brewer, who do we try to make play as our number 1 defenseman? No other Blue on this team could. Unless we have another trade lined up immediately to fill that spot, if you make this deal, the season is pretty much over.


Brewer has been our best defenseman over the last 20 or so games by a pretty wide margin. I know that the "trade Brewer" crap was in fashion a while ago, but seriously it's time to get over it.
Agreed. He is starting to stand out. Who would be the "new # 1"? Jackman? He is struggling in his current role. McKee? Has been playing pretty good lately, but doesn't have the wheels to be a number one defender. EJ will be there someday, and the rest of the cast are depth guys. There are only a few guys in the A that are even close to Brew in skill/skating, Woywitka and Wagner, thrusting them into his role would be a real crapshoot. Don't forget, when Oshie, Bergie, and company get here, no one will pine for a Gionta. Patience.

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02-02-2008, 06:48 PM
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Robb_K
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Brewer is worth more to The Blues than Gionta, and there's no guarantee that they could trade for a #1 or #2 tpe defencman, or sign one as a UFA. If they were to do so, they'd be paying a lot more than $4,25 million, further restricting their signing and resigning other players. Gionta isn't going to help them score enough to make up for the loss of high level play on defence (or the increase in team salary for his replacement). If they're going to trade Brewer, they'd better get more in player assets, without having to pay much more in salary.

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02-02-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post



He has been playing the minutes and in the situations of a number 1 defenseman and despite being forced into a tougher job than he should have, is doing a bang-up job. If we move Brewer, who do we try to make play as our number 1 defenseman? No other Blue on this team could. Unless we have another trade lined up immediately to fill that spot, if you make this deal, the season is pretty much over.


Brewer has been our best defenseman over the last 20 or so games by a pretty wide margin. I know that the "trade Brewer" crap was in fashion a while ago, but seriously it's time to get over it.
I have never liked Eric Brewer back to his Islander days. I don't care about fashion. I do not like Brewer or how he plays. If I could get something for Brewer I would do it just to get him out of the uniform. Would the season be over? Yes. Is it anyway? yes. We aren't going to win anything. We are playing for the FUTURE. Gionta is not my first choice. We should have unloaded him at the deadline. He's playing his rear off and has a decent contract. Trade him now.

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02-02-2008, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I have never liked Eric Brewer back to his Islander days. I don't care about fashion. I do not like Brewer or how he plays. If I could get something for Brewer I would do it just to get him out of the uniform. Would the season be over? Yes. Is it anyway? yes. We aren't going to win anything. We are playing for the FUTURE. Gionta is not my first choice. We should have unloaded him at the deadline. He's playing his rear off and has a decent contract. Trade him now.
Doesn't that make you biased then? I don't see why we should trade someone just cause you don't like him. We need to make moves that better the team. Who will take his place? Is Gionta really worth getting for Brewer? This just doesn't seem to be a reasonable request. Again I don't like the way he plays either, but I am not willing to de-value the guy because of it. If I am this club, I keep him unless someone gives us what we want and need...not just to get rid of him.

Hope that didn't come off as sounding like an attack on you Perry.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 02-02-2008 at 11:48 PM.
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Old
02-02-2008, 08:04 PM
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BluesDarb
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Brewer > Gionta

Would I have liked to get rid of Brewer a few months/weeks ago? Probably.

But not now. He's very important to the team for the next 2 or 3 years. Gotta give EJ time to bloom and Brew is the perfect stopgap.

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02-02-2008, 08:10 PM
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rumrokh
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Hope that come off as sounding like an attack on you Perry.
That definitely wasn't an attack on him, which would be lame. But what is fine is an attack on his opinion, which, in this case, sucks. Brewer has been basically the best defender on the team and if you dislike him so much that you want to unload him no matter what, that's twisted. I'm not against trading Brewer, but only if the trade makes sense. When you force a trade (like was done with Pronger), you end up with a poor return. For a team that is in the playoffs and wants to go deeper or may be on the cusp of winning the cup, "losing" a trade is okay to get the right team composition and fill the gaps. But getting full value for every player is crucial to a team like the Blues.

If the future is what is so important, you wouldn't just ditch Brewer as quickly as possible for whatever return is decent, you'd evaluate the return and judge the value accordingly. If you can't replace him and/or can't get a good enough return, no matter how much you dislike the guy, you simply don't make such a move.

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Old
02-03-2008, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post



He has been playing the minutes and in the situations of a number 1 defenseman and despite being forced into a tougher job than he should have, is doing a bang-up job. If we move Brewer, who do we try to make play as our number 1 defenseman? No other Blue on this team could. Unless we have another trade lined up immediately to fill that spot, if you make this deal, the season is pretty much over.


Brewer has been our best defenseman over the last 20 or so games by a pretty wide margin. I know that the "trade Brewer" crap was in fashion a while ago, but seriously it's time to get over it.
Gonna have to disagree with you on Brewer. He's been playing well, no doubt about that. But has he been playing as well as a no. 1 defenseman? Not in my eyes. This is another one of his flashes, he's not been able to consistently play this well over an extended period of time.

To say that he's been the Blues' best defenseman "by a pretty wide margin" is just fallacy. Again, Brewer's playing well, but he's not outperforming Salvador or Mckee by a "pretty wide margin." All three guys have been solid, but not number 1 defenseman solid. They're holding the fort down until EJ can grow into his pedigree.

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02-03-2008, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
To say that he's been the Blues' best defenseman "by a pretty wide margin" is just fallacy. Again, Brewer's playing well, but he's not outperforming Salvador or Mckee by a "pretty wide margin." All three guys have been solid, but not number 1 defenseman solid. They're holding the fort down until EJ can grow into his pedigree.
At well over 25 minutes a night, yes he is outplaying Sal and McKee by a wide margin.

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02-03-2008, 02:12 AM
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From an outside perspective, I think this would be a very foolish deal for you guys.

I loved Brewer during his time in Edmonton, and I truly think he is one of the most under-rated players in the league. He can play 23+ minutes with most of them being ES/SH which is so rare and allows every other dman on the squad to fit into a nice role.

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02-03-2008, 07:30 AM
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I'm not going to pull your chain here, Zundo. Yes, it does make me biased. Would I make a Gionta Brewer deal? In my case, I would trade him as another poster put it many months ago...for a fart in a tupperware container.

Realistically, I would seek a better deal. If I'm allowed a retreat, then I'm not a fan of small forwards anyway. I didn't realize he was 5' 7" tall. I don't think the lollipop guild is the way to go up front. "In a heartbeat" I would like to retreat from.

We really missed the boat not trading him at the deadline last year. We had better choices as UFAs that would have helped our powerplay and surely would've gotten the two first round picks + we sought for him. If I was offered a Campbell for Brewer deal, then I would be more apt to do that with a conditional set of picks. (Picks if Campbell doesn't resign with the Blues.) I would prefer to move him for another top 4 Dman with scoring potential. Neither he or Backman have blossomed in that department. He has not been our best defenseman all season. I would give that to Salvador. (It pains me to say that. He's been a whipping boy.) Of late, McKee, Salvador, and Brewer have been our top d-men. If you look at their scoring, then you see there is very little difference between the 3 based on Brewer getting more minutes. (as with all the Blues Dmen, painful PP time. They have been horrible.)

Keep in mind too. We can't score goals. We haven't scored hardly any of late. Is it a lack of talent up front? Is it AM's system? Scoring 2 goals tops a game doesn't cut it. If we did pick up another top six, then that would ruin AM's idea of having two checking lines. One of them will probably sit or play 5 minutes a game or not at all. Would you agree with that Checker? I see your posts.

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Old
02-03-2008, 11:29 AM
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WOW...just simply WOW!!!


Blue fans defending Brewer and his play on the ice. Was just a month or so ago, it was a complete opposite. And everyone was ready to dump him for a bag of pucks. And now since he is starting to play for the money that he is getting paid. Brewer is great now.

Brewer is playing at this level for a good stretch. He is usually good for a 15-20 game stretch of solid playing, and does that about 1 or 2 times a season. He is not consistent at all. Salvy is better than Brewer in this category, Salvy will give you everything on a nightly basis.

And for those that want to go the stat direction.

Brewer : 1g 11a 12pts -8 (3.5 mil salary)
Salvador: 1g 9a 10pts +12 (1.5mil salary)

Pretty even, except the price tag and +/-.

Not saying that Gionta is equal to Brewer, but do not overvalue Brewer. Everyone may still be looking at his upside. Which he has not shown, except for flashes. Those flashes are all they are, FLASHES!!!! Nothing more than that.

But Gionta is too small at forward for the Blues right now. We are getting too small up front. We need to get size, especially with playing in the Western Conference. 1 or 2 small forwards would be OK, but not a whole line of them. That line would be crushed.

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02-03-2008, 11:43 AM
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Several posters are not against trading Brewer,-just against this "proposed trade". I'd be fine with getting a player back who will help The Blues significantly (e.g. a big relatively young quality scoring centre or winger, an offensive defenceman who can also play well inhis own zone and can play 20-22 min. a game, or even 2 1st rounders (IF a quality D-man to replace Brewer is already obtained before this trade).

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02-03-2008, 01:58 PM
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Sneakerpimp- I don't think Checker was saying that Brewer is a #1 d-man, but rather that he is being used like one on this team. He plays those types of minutes and in those situations. I think his point is if he leaves then who could possibly move up and fill that position as well as he does.

Perry- I will allow your retreat lol Seriously thought, I do agree that we should not be getting any smaller up front.

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02-03-2008, 02:19 PM
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NOTENOUGHBREWER
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If the Blues dont mind trading within the conference the Avs were rumoured to have offered Wolski Skrastins and a 1st rounder for him before.

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02-03-2008, 02:34 PM
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If the Blues dont mind trading within the conference the Avs were rumoured to have offered Wolski Skrastins and a 1st rounder for him before.
I think The Blues could get more than that for Brewer. They need to be offered a decent OVERPAYMENT for Brewer to let him go before the trade deadline AND seeing what they can get for Jackman (and IF they can trade Bäckman).

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02-03-2008, 02:53 PM
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I think The Blues could get more than that for Brewer. They need to be offered a decent OVERPAYMENT for Brewer to let him go before the trade deadline AND seeing what they can get for Jackman (and IF they can trade Bäckman).
What?? More than what NotEnoughBrewer just said??? A 1st rounder Wolski Skrastins???

You seriously think we could get more than that?

I honestly didn't think we would get much more than a 1st rounder for Eric.

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