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Lecavalier: Will he sign in Montreal?

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Old
02-12-2008, 09:03 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Would help if you would actually remember that as the cap goes up, so does single player salaries. We would be lucky to sign all those contracts in your "plan".
No we won't be lucky to do this, we would be very UNlucky to not sign them close to my estimates.


Quote:
Higgins exploding next year? 5m cap hit
He might not, that's why I gave an approximate and calm yourself, 5 mil cap hit, that's what Ribs is having, no way in hell Higgy showed the consistency Ribs has shown. Neither the numbers. Exageration won't make you right. I gave approximates... but hey it'll be my pleasure to come back to this thread in the future and show you just how much you were wrong.

Quote:
Pleckanec(we will sign him to an extension this summer I'm quite sure for around Koivu's salary)
Duh!

Go check my chart, I put a min. of 4 mil and max. of 5 mil to Plekanec. Try to keep track. I know its hard for you, but still, can you try?


Quote:
Komisarek @ 4.5m is ridiculous, hell get Markov's salary.(At this rate of progression)
You're the one who is ridiculous. Almost everyone agrees he will get 4.5 mil max. Go look at other defensive defensemen. NONE are getting the money you say. You are again just exagerating so it will make you right, but you are not. Gainey has many examples he can rely on to show Komi is value. Jeeze man, Phaneuf signed 6,5 mil and he has way better offensive skills andhas the same defensive acumen (even better) than Komi.

Quote:
Kovalev at 4m$ cap hit? He wont take a rebate...
He won't take a rebate, did the Great Gazoo tell you this? He's gonna be 37 when his contract ends. How many 37 years old do you know who have more than 4 mil, at Kovalev's rate. NONE. (even Shanahan didn't make more than that )...

Quote:
Sergei Kostitsyn exploding and he will have to peg another 5m$ for him
Another sourpuss exageration. Sarhei won't be making that money until at least 4-5 more seasons.

Quote:
Price take first spot, another 5m$
Another sourpuss exageration.


Quote:
Andrei Kostitsyn at 4m$ as a PPG player? Look at Vanek salary.
LOL. Vanek is a very bad example as it is a rare case. the only other similar case is Penner. First, Kosty hasn't had a complete season at PPG. Secondly, I'm really LMAO at this, Pleks is PPG and has shown more consistency and yet you say he will get Koivu salary and then a player who hasn't shown the same consistency YET will receive way more??!?!?!??! You're trying to exagerate anything so you can be right and by doing this you are contradicting yourself....


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See how it can get out of the control fast?
Onloy when someone is overly exagerating just to be right.

Quote:
1)It might not get that bad
It will NOT get that bad, because Gainey has shown he can sign his RFAs at low rate.

Quote:
2)I'm not saying we can't sign Huet for 1 year @ 5-6m$ The problem, Huet will not want that and we would be foolish to sign him for longer in our situation.
Huet will sign here for a few seasons at way under the salary you are saying. Between 4 and 5 mil per season.

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02-12-2008, 09:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No we won't be lucky to do this, we would be very UNlucky to not sign them close to my estimates.




He might not, that's why I gave an approximate and calm yourself, 5 mil cap hit, that's what Ribs is having, no way in hell Higgy showed the consistency Ribs has shown. Neither the numbers. Exageration won't make you right. I gave approximates... but hey it'll be my pleasure to come back to this thread in the future and show you just how much you were wrong.



Duh!

Go check my chart, I put a min. of 4 mil and max. of 5 mil to Plekanec. Try to keep track. I know its hard for you, but still, can you try?




You're the one who is ridiculous. Almost everyone agrees he will get 4.5 mil max. Go look at other defensive defensemen. NONE are getting the money you say. You are again just exagerating so it will make you right, but you are not. Gainey has many examples he can rely on to show Komi is value. Jeeze man, Phaneuf signed 6,5 mil and he has way better offensive skills andhas the same defensive acumen (even better) than Komi.



He won't take a rebate, did the Great Gazoo tell you this? He's gonna be 37 when his contract ends. How many 37 years old do you know who have more than 4 mil, at Kovalev's rate. NONE. (even Shanahan didn't make more than that )...



Another sourpuss exageration. Sarhei won't be making that money until at least 4-5 more seasons.



Another sourpuss exageration.




LOL. Vanek is a very bad example as it is a rare case. the only other similar case is Penner. First, Kosty hasn't had a complete season at PPG. Secondly, I'm really LMAO at this, Pleks is PPG and has shown more consistency and yet you say he will get Koivu salary and then a player who hasn't shown the same consistency YET will receive way more??!?!?!??! You're trying to exagerate anything so you can be right and by doing this you are contradicting yourself....




Onloy when someone is overly exagerating just to be right.



It will NOT get that bad, because Gainey has shown he can sign his RFAs at low rate.



Huet will sign here for a few seasons at way under the salary you are saying. Between 4 and 5 mil per season.
Ok, Ive learned my lesson, fun to talk, less fun to loose my time.

Come to me next time you want to talk like an adult. I just disagree with you, no needs to fill the canons with powder.

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Old
02-12-2008, 09:42 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Ok, Ive learned my lesson, fun to talk, less fun to loose my time.

Come to me next time you want to talk like an adult. I just disagree with you, no needs to fill the canons with powder.

You're own childish way to say you're out of arguments?

Please, I'm not the one who said "komi at 4,5 mil is ridiculous", so don't talk about being immature and putting powder in the cannons.

About the part you put in bold.... You say this as thos I said Plekanec wouldn't reciece this kind of money, as if I was off the track and yet my chart showed exactly the same amount as you said!!! Get it??

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02-12-2008, 09:51 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Because he as never played 60 games like a real number 1. The habs wouldnt get much out of Huet.
That's a ludicrous comment.

What did Fla trade for Vokoun? How about Toronto for Raycroft...or Toskala? Edmonton for Roloson? Fernandez in Boston?

He's an above average #1 NHL goalie, he would be worth a lot to a team needing a #1...Ottawa Los Angeles Tampa Bay Washington.

Huet would be worth a MINIMUM of a 1st and a very good prospect if he was signed to a reasonable contract and his play stays as it has the last 2 1/2 years.

Best case if they can sign him at around 4.2-4.4 for 2 years...if he wants 5 mil and/or 3-4-5 years then maybe look at plan B, probably a trade. Giving Price the #1 job in September would not be a good idea IMHO.

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02-12-2008, 09:54 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's a ludicrous comment.

What did Fla trade for Vokoun? How about Toronto for Raycroft...or Toskala? Edmonton for Roloson? Fernandez in Boston?

He's an above average #1 NHL goalie, he would be worth a lot to a team needing a #1...Ottawa Los Angeles Tampa Bay Washington.

Huet would be worth a MINIMUM of a 1st and a very good prospect if he was signed to a reasonable contract and his play stays as it has the last 2 1/2 years.

Best case if they can sign him at around 4.2-4.4 for 2 years...if he wants 5 mil and/or 3-4-5 years then maybe look at plan B, probably a trade. Giving Price the #1 job in September would not be a good idea IMHO.

Dude, don't you get that SOLR and NewHabsEra don't like Huet one bit, don't want to see him here again and will say anything, any exageration, any confabulation just so their fanboy dreams may seem possible in their heads?

Don't lose your time. They aren't worth it.

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02-12-2008, 09:57 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Because he as never played 60 games like a real number 1. The habs wouldnt get much out of Huet.
Contradicting yourself once again..... Tell me how can they sign him at 5-6 mil and still not have this value to other teams and yet have the value for that salary..... You,re basing yourself on a reality of extremes where Huet would cost a lot to the Habs, but wouldn't be worth a dime on the market....

Huge contradiction there. Yet I am so not surprised.

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02-12-2008, 10:01 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You're own childish way to say you're out of arguments?

Please, I'm not the one who said "komi at 4,5 mil is ridiculous", so don't talk about being immature and putting powder in the cannons.

About the part you put in bold.... You say this as thos I said Plekanec wouldn't reciece this kind of money, as if I was off the track and yet my chart showed exactly the same amount as you said!!! Get it??
You didnt get it, attack the post, not the poster.

I do believe Komisarek at 4.5m in 2009-2010 is ridiculous. The low ball target is Hamrlik salary.(Particularly if Komisarek is seen as surpassing Hamrlik.) Lets not forget that those next contracts will take years out of the UFAs from those players. That being said, if we sign him this summer we might get away with 5m. In the case of Pleckanec, he might as well cost 6-7m if we wait until after next season he will up the comparison to Drury-Gomez.(This is what I wanted to point out, but failed too) Kostitsyn wont get the moon just yet, but at this production rate he cost us a lot of money quick particularly with the offer sheet risk. Kovalev...Selanne...A player like Kovy wont cost less, he will cost more if 70 pts is 4.5m this year, it will be 5.5m for 2009-2010.

This is all speculation anyway, your guess is as good as mine, the point I want to get across, is that we are in a situation of fast salary growth in the short to medium term since a lot of our current player are in the entry rate system. If you get Lecavalier somehow you must play it safe and not take a huge risk on a goalie like Huet who never won anything, never played 60 games etc. We will know more after the playoff...

It's all manageable, but we have to keep our sights on the big picture and the explosive situation we could have in a few year.(It will mean that we are winning, just have to keep some positive cashflow to go get the players we need on the UFA market like Lecavalier.)

I will also dispute your cap increase, since its a bit too much imo. The reasons: the US will enter a recession, but we will see a good cap increase this year because of the full year under a strong CDN$, next year it won't be so imo, there will be less revenue increase possibilities and season tickets might be harder to sell this summer(the first of the "recession") if the economic situation continues to be all doom and gloom. I'll put the cap at 60M$ for the Lecavalier summer.(55m$ for next year)


Last edited by SOLR: 02-12-2008 at 10:16 AM.
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02-12-2008, 10:10 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Contradicting yourself once again..... Tell me how can they sign him at 5-6 mil and still not have this value to other teams and yet have the value for that salary..... You,re basing yourself on a reality of extremes where Huet would cost a lot to the Habs, but wouldn't be worth a dime on the market....

Huge contradiction there. Yet I am so not surprised.
Its not a contradiction. Many team will offer the goalies a lot of money, but also most team will not deal assets to get those goalies because of the market. Thing is, a rebuilding team will draft a goalie quite high on draft day, so they wont trade their picks to acquire a guy like Huet who will be retired by the time they emerge. Most good teams already have good goaltending or if they don't Huet is barely an answer, hes not a proven playoff goalie. His salary is the representation of the formula that says: hes worth more to us than to others. Like Koivu's salary. I just don't want another theodore situation on my hands. I prefer getting a cheap, end of career UFA to backup Price and keep my options open on the UFA market. Including signing a 10M$ cap hit(12m$ max salary for 5 years and 3 years at 6-7 etc) for Vinny Lecavalier.


Last edited by SOLR: 02-12-2008 at 10:19 AM.
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02-12-2008, 10:21 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Dude, don't you get that SOLR and NewHabsEra don't like Huet one bit, don't want to see him here again and will say anything, any exageration, any confabulation just so their fanboy dreams may seem possible in their heads?

Don't lose your time. They aren't worth it.
Your way off, I like Huet, I just think theres better options that gives us more possibilities.

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02-12-2008, 10:25 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's a ludicrous comment.

What did Fla trade for Vokoun? How about Toronto for Raycroft...or Toskala? Edmonton for Roloson? Fernandez in Boston?

He's an above average #1 NHL goalie, he would be worth a lot to a team needing a #1...Ottawa Los Angeles Tampa Bay Washington.

Huet would be worth a MINIMUM of a 1st and a very good prospect if he was signed to a reasonable contract and his play stays as it has the last 2 1/2 years.

Best case if they can sign him at around 4.2-4.4 for 2 years...if he wants 5 mil and/or 3-4-5 years then maybe look at plan B, probably a trade. Giving Price the #1 job in September would not be a good idea IMHO.
Well nix the 2 toronto trades since only the worst GM in the league will make you win such lotos. Vokoun got more value than Huet by quite a bit, did many full seasons more than Huet. Fernandez, is a good move? Roloson was a good deadline move, but another guy with more to show than Huet.(The minnesota nice playoff run the years before the trade)

Imo Huet current value on the market is around a late first round pick. Thats it.

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02-12-2008, 10:27 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
You didnt get it, attack the post, not the poster.

I do believe Komisarek at 4.5m in 2009-2010 is ridiculous. The low ball target is Hamrlik salary.(Particularly if Komisarek is seen as surpassing Hamrlik.) Lets not forget that those next contracts will take years out of the UFAs from those players. That being said, if we sign him this summer we might get away with 5m. In the case of Pleckanec, he might as well cost 6-7m if we wait until after next season he will up the comparison to Drury-Gomez.(This is what I wanted to point out, but failed too) Kostitsyn wont get the moon just yet, but at this production rate he cost us a lot of money quick particularly with the offer sheet risk. Kovalev...Selanne...A player like Kovy wont cost less, he will cost more if 70 pts is 4.5m this year, it will be 5.5m for 2009-2010.

This is all speculation anyway, your guess is as good as mine, the point I want to get across, is that we are in a situation of fast salary growth in the short to medium term since a lot of our current player are in the entry rate system. If you get Lecavalier somehow you must play it safe and not take a huge risk on a goalie like Huet who never won anything, never played 60 games etc. We will know more after the playoff...

It's all manageable, but we have to keep our sights on the big picture and the explosive situation we could have in a few year.(It will mean that we are winning, just have to keep some positive cashflow to go get the players we need on the UFA market like Lecavalier.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Its not a contradiction. Many team will offer the goalies a lot of money, but also most team will not deal assets to get those goalies because of the market. Thing is, a rebuilding team will draft a goalie quite high on draft day, so they wont trade their picks to acquire a guy like Huet who will be retired by the time they emerge. Most good teams already have good goaltending or if they don't Huet is barely an answer, hes not a proven playoff goalie. His salary is the representation of the formula that says: hes worth more to us than to others. Like Koivu's salary. I just don't want another theodore situation on my hands. I prefer getting a cheap, end of career UFA to backup Price and keep my option open on the UFA market.

You ALWAYS prefer the glass half empty just to be right.

1- Komi won't be compared to Hammer, because Hammer has more experience, has a much higher PPG career average and does not play with Markov all the time. You are still forgetting the Paheuf example. Volchekov who is extremely similar to Komi only makes 2,5 mil per season. McKee who was a huge mistake at 4 mil. We'll refer to this thread in the future, I'll take good note of it (as I'm almost ALWAYS right about player salaries) and we'll see if you'll have changed your nick by then.

2- Plekanec will never ask for 6-7 mil. Total exageration just to jump your argument about Vanek which was so ludicrous. You are still forgetting about Ribs. There is just no point of comparison for Pleks if he truly wants to stay here and I'm sure he does. Again we'll refer to this thread in the future, see who was right and was oh so wrong. Your examples of Drury/Gomez are totally ridiculous as you know they WERE on the market, HAD MORE experience than Pleks... You nkow Ribs is the best comparison because Gainey will most certainly sign Pleks way before he'll hit the market.

3- The part about Kovalev. You repeat the same argument without taking into account mine. Kovalev will BE T-H-I-R-T-Y S-E-V-E-N years old. Selanne is far superior to Kovy at the same age, very bad example. Shanahan is more in the range of Kovy, I mentionned him, yet you completely ignore my argument. Kovy won't get 5,5. Only in fanboy heads who don't want to see huet come back does Kovalev sign so high. I don't expect Kovy to keep this rythm for next season. And even if he keeps it up, he knows he'll have to take less if he wants to stay here. Gainey will again have many examples of comparison to show Kovy his worth.

4- As for Huet IT IS A CONTRADICTION AS THEY ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF TEAMS WHO HAVE TRADED FOR THESE TYPES OF GOALIES. 1- You exagerate the salary he will have (to make him sound less tradeable) 2- You make it seem as NO team whatsoever would be interested 3- you are deluding yourself thinking Price can take up the job this quickly.

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02-12-2008, 10:28 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
You didnt get it, attack the post, not the poster.

I do believe Komisarek at 4.5m in 2009-2010 is ridiculous. The low ball target is Hamrlik salary.(Particularly if Komisarek is seen as surpassing Hamrlik.) Lets not forget that those next contracts will take years out of the UFAs from those players. That being said, if we sign him this summer we might get away with 5m. In the case of Pleckanec, he might as well cost 6-7m if we wait until after next season he will up the comparison to Drury-Gomez.(This is what I wanted to point out, but failed too) Kostitsyn wont get the moon just yet, but at this production rate he cost us a lot of money quick particularly with the offer sheet risk. Kovalev...Selanne...A player like Kovy wont cost less, he will cost more if 70 pts is 4.5m this year, it will be 5.5m for 2009-2010.

This is all speculation anyway, your guess is as good as mine, the point I want to get across, is that we are in a situation of fast salary growth in the short to medium term since a lot of our current player are in the entry rate system. If you get Lecavalier somehow you must play it safe and not take a huge risk on a goalie like Huet who never won anything, never played 60 games etc. We will know more after the playoff...

It's all manageable, but we have to keep our sights on the big picture and the explosive situation we could have in a few year.(It will mean that we are winning, just have to keep some positive cashflow to go get the players we need on the UFA market like Lecavalier.)

I will also dispute your cap increase, since its a bit too much imo. The reasons: the US will enter a recession, but we will see a good cap increase this year because of the full year under a strong CDN$, next year it won't be so imo, there will be less revenue increase possibilities and season tickets might be harder to sell this summer(the first of the "recession") if the economic situation continues to be all doom and gloom. I'll put the cap at 60M$ for the Lecavalier summer.(55m$ for next year)

Yeah but how many years did Hamrlik have to play in the league before he got the money that Montreal gave him??? He had a good 13 season in the league before he was rewarded with a nice big contract like he got from the Habs....so why should he just hand over millions of dollars to Komisarek???
I think Mike is a great defencemen and I wanna keep him on the team for many years to come, but his next contract should be for 3-4 years at no more than $3.5-$4 million a year. That is a significant raise over what he is making now, but its not the huge amount that Hamrlik got because Komisarek is still relatively new in the league. We can't just hand money over to players because someone on another team makes $5-6 million a year and are comparable to Komisarek....it just makes no sense. You have to give a contract to a player based on what he is worth to the team, not what he would make on the open market or what people think he should make because so and so is making X amount of money.

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02-12-2008, 10:29 AM
  #113
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Let's come back next July... see who was right about the salaries.

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02-12-2008, 10:36 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You ALWAYS prefer the glass half empty just to be right.

1- Komi won't be compared to Hammer, because Hammer has more experience, has a much higher PPG career average and does not play with Markov all the time. You are still forgetting the Paheuf example. Volchekov who is extremely similar to Komi only makes 2,5 mil per season. McKee who was a huge mistake at 4 mil. We'll refer to this thread in the future, I'll take good note of it (as I'm almost ALWAYS right about player salaries) and we'll see if you'll have changed your nick by then.

2- Plekanec will never ask for 6-7 mil. Total exageration just to jump your argument about Vanek which was so ludicrous. You are still forgetting about Ribs. There is just no point of comparison for Pleks if he truly wants to stay here and I'm sure he does. Again we'll refer to this thread in the future, see who was right and was oh so wrong. Your examples of Drury/Gomez are totally ridiculous as you know they WERE on the market, HAD MORE experience than Pleks... You nkow Ribs is the best comparison because Gainey will most certainly sign Pleks way before he'll hit the market.

3- The part about Kovalev. You repeat the same argument without taking into account mine. Kovalev will BE T-H-I-R-T-Y S-E-V-E-N years old. Selanne is far superior to Kovy at the same age, very bad example. Shanahan is more in the range of Kovy, I mentionned him, yet you completely ignore my argument. Kovy won't get 5,5. Only in fanboy heads who don't want to see huet come back does Kovalev sign so high. I don't expect Kovy to keep this rythm for next season. And even if he keeps it up, he knows he'll have to take less if he wants to stay here. Gainey will again have many examples of comparison to show Kovy his worth.

4- As for Huet IT IS A CONTRADICTION AS THEY ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF TEAMS WHO HAVE TRADED FOR THESE TYPES OF GOALIES. 1- You exagerate the salary he will have (to make him sound less tradeable) 2- You make it seem as NO team whatsoever would be interested 3- you are deluding yourself thinking Price can take up the job this quickly.


Great post!!! I hate when people talk about contracts and dollars when they have no clue about either. I agree with everything you have just pointed out about Kovalev, Huet, Plekanec and Komisarek. It all makes sense and the money you discussed makes sense too.
Plekanec at 6-7 million a year....PLEASE!!!! What is SOLR thinking?? He seems to forget that MOST NHL players have to work their way up to earn these big salaries. They have to put points up on a consistant basis over 4 or 5 years. Hardly any player just gets awarded 7 million a year based on 2 decent seasons. If Pleks can put up 100 points for 4 years in a row....then maybe he'll get $6-7 million a year....but not until then.

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02-12-2008, 10:39 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You ALWAYS prefer the glass half empty just to be right.

1- Komi won't be compared to Hammer, because Hammer has more experience, has a much higher PPG career average and does not play with Markov all the time. You are still forgetting the Paheuf example. Volchekov who is extremely similar to Komi only makes 2,5 mil per season. McKee who was a huge mistake at 4 mil. We'll refer to this thread in the future, I'll take good note of it (as I'm almost ALWAYS right about player salaries) and we'll see if you'll have changed your nick by then.
Hamrlik isnt leading the league in shot blocked and hits(nearly)

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
2- Plekanec will never ask for 6-7 mil. Total exageration just to jump your argument about Vanek which was so ludicrous. You are still forgetting about Ribs. There is just no point of comparison for Pleks if he truly wants to stay here and I'm sure he does. Again we'll refer to this thread in the future, see who was right and was oh so wrong. Your examples of Drury/Gomez are totally ridiculous as you know they WERE on the market, HAD MORE experience than Pleks... You nkow Ribs is the best comparison because Gainey will most certainly sign Pleks way before he'll hit the market.
Why wouldnt he ask for 6-7 mil next year if he can compare himself to Gomez?(2,5 PPG seasons)

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
3- The part about Kovalev. You repeat the same argument without taking into account mine. Kovalev will BE T-H-I-R-T-Y S-E-V-E-N years old. Selanne is far superior to Kovy at the same age, very bad example. Shanahan is more in the range of Kovy, I mentionned him, yet you completely ignore my argument. Kovy won't get 5,5. Only in fanboy heads who don't want to see huet come back does Kovalev sign so high. I don't expect Kovy to keep this rythm for next season. And even if he keeps it up, he knows he'll have to take less if he wants to stay here. Gainey will again have many examples of comparison to show Kovy his worth.
Age as nothing to do with it, he can show the goods he will get the salary, as simple as that. Kovalev could play like that for good 5 more years if hes not injured.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
4- As for Huet IT IS A CONTRADICTION AS THEY ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF TEAMS WHO HAVE TRADED FOR THESE TYPES OF GOALIES. 1- You exagerate the salary he will have (to make him sound less tradeable) 2- You make it seem as NO team whatsoever would be interested 3- you are deluding yourself thinking Price can take up the job this quickly.
Yes you can find examples, it's cool. 1-I'm just talking about ballparks, he might get 4.5m for all I care and the problem remains. 2- This isnt what I said, not at all, I'm saying that he doesnt have first rounder + prospects value, not yet(maybe later) and that his value for us is bigger. (Explaining the higher salary than trade value)
3- No, I'm just willing to take the risk with that situation. It's worth Lecavalier. The team will progress whoever is in net next year out of Halak Price or Huet, might as well cut the spending.(IMO) Granted its a risk, that why Id sign a veteran UFA, cheap.

Finally, I don't want to be "right" I just want you to get my point. I'm getting yours 100% clear, it's reasonable, I just disagree on your salary outlook.

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02-12-2008, 10:42 AM
  #116
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Yeah but how many years did Hamrlik have to play in the league before he got the money that Montreal gave him??? He had a good 13 season in the league before he was rewarded with a nice big contract like he got from the Habs....so why should he just hand over millions of dollars to Komisarek???
I think Mike is a great defencemen and I wanna keep him on the team for many years to come, but his next contract should be for 3-4 years at no more than $3.5-$4 million a year. That is a significant raise over what he is making now, but its not the huge amount that Hamrlik got because Komisarek is still relatively new in the league. We can't just hand money over to players because someone on another team makes $5-6 million a year and are comparable to Komisarek....it just makes no sense. You have to give a contract to a player based on what he is worth to the team, not what he would make on the open market or what people think he should make because so and so is making X amount of money.
Thing is, Komisarek will be signed on some of his UFA years, this will increase our costs. We have not yet tasted the new RFA regime here in Montreal. GMs cant lowball RFA anymore.

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02-12-2008, 10:46 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Thing is, Komisarek will be signed on some of his UFA years, this will increase our costs. We have not yet tasted the new RFA regime here in Montreal. GMs cant lowball RFA anymore.
Starting July 1, Bob can start trying to luck up his future RFA's and UFA's long term, I think you'll see him try and get Higgins Plek and Komi signed for 3-4-5 more years at 3-4.5 mil each before they reach the UFA market and cost 1-2 mil more a year...

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02-12-2008, 10:47 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post

Great post!!! I hate when people talk about contracts and dollars when they have no clue about either. I agree with everything you have just pointed out about Kovalev, Huet, Plekanec and Komisarek. It all makes sense and the money you discussed makes sense too.
Plekanec at 6-7 million a year....PLEASE!!!! What is SOLR thinking?? He seems to forget that MOST NHL players have to work their way up to earn these big salaries. They have to put points up on a consistant basis over 4 or 5 years. Hardly any player just gets awarded 7 million a year based on 2 decent seasons. If Pleks can put up 100 points for 4 years in a row....then maybe he'll get $6-7 million a year....but not until then.
If we wait after next season and Pleckanec get another 80pts(Thats 200+ PPG games of proof) those are the numbers, Ribeiro doesnt have Plecky's 2 way game, he doesnt compare. Gomez will become Plecky's comparative. 6 M$ wont be a very high salary for 2009-2010. Thats why we have to sign him now, hoping to lowball him into a long contract. Make it 7 years at 5m$ this summer.

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02-12-2008, 10:49 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Starting July 1, Bob can start trying to luck up his future RFA's and UFA's long term, I think you'll see him try and get Higgins Plek and Komi signed for 3-4-5 more years at 3-4.5 mil each before they reach the UFA market and cost 1-2 mil more a year...
Hopefully. It can work, I just dont want people here to keep dodging the reality that those guys salaries will explode if we are not careful.

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02-12-2008, 10:50 AM
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Well nix the 2 toronto trades since only the worst GM in the league will make you win such lotos. Vokoun got more value than Huet by quite a bit, did many full seasons more than Huet. Fernandez, is a good move? Roloson was a good deadline move, but another guy with more to show than Huet.(The minnesota nice playoff run the years before the trade)

Imo Huet current value on the market is around a late first round pick. Thats it.
You can't have it both ways...if Huet is worth over 5 mil on the FA market then he would still have good trade value as obvioulsy multiple teams want him..I don't think he'll go from a top 15 goalie in 2008 to a crappy one in 2009

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02-12-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Hopefully. It can work, I just dont want people here to keep dodging the reality that those guys salaries will explode if we are not careful.

That's why you need to identify your future core players early and get them signed cheaper and earlier.

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02-12-2008, 10:57 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Hamrlik isnt leading the league in shot blocked and hits(nearly)
Komi hasn't 10 years of experience.... You still remain with your example of Hammer, yet its ridiculous, as they are of way different age, Hammer has a far superior PPG career average. Vlochnkov leads in the same categories as you talked about for Komi, yet he only makes 2,5 mil.... maybe you should look at real examples instead of feeble ones.


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Why wouldnt he ask for 6-7 mil next year if he can compare himself to Gomez?(2,5 PPG seasons)
Because Gomez 1- has won a cup 2- has way more experience 3- hit the market

Your arguments are all based on Pleks hitting the market. Odds are very slim he will do so if the Habs want to keep him.... Tell me, when the Habs wanted to keep Markov, did he hit the market? Huet? Kovy? Gainey, if he wants to keep a player, tries to sign him before he can take up market value.... At least stick to the reality of it. Gomez and Drury signed WITH OTHER teams. Here were talking about signing with his own team. Your comparisons are quite feeble.


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Age as nothing to do with it, he can show the goods he will get the salary, as simple as that. Kovalev could play like that for good 5 more years if hes not injured.
Yes age has something to do with it. You give no reason to make us beleive otherwise, no arguments whatsoever. Should we believe you because you are an authority on the effects of age on hockey players??? You're a real joke man, people are questionning Koivu's own abilities and he's only reached 34. Age DOES make a difference. It's been almost 6-8 years that Chelios is not asking for much from the Wings. Give me one example of a player (not a much higher talent like Selanne) who was close to 40 years of age and still had over 5 mil. There aren't and again.... you think about him hitting the market, if he wants to stay in Montreal, he knows he musn't do that. You're the one making much speculation. No team will take a 5 mil risk on a player known for inconsistency and of old age.


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Yes you can find examples, it's cool. 1-I'm just talking about ballparks, he might get 4.5m for all I care and the problem remains. 2- This isnt what I said, not at all, I'm saying that he doesnt have first rounder + prospects value, not yet(maybe later) and that his value for us is bigger. (Explaining the higher salary than trade value)
But nothing says it will either than YOU. Your ballparks were used as extremes from on end to the other. Too high of salary... too low of trade capability. YOU HAVE NO IDEA for what they could trade him for come two-three years from now. You're assuming a lot to say this will be a bad move. And the funny part is, real professionals as Gainey will sign him back. That tells a lot.


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3- No, I'm just willing to take the risk with that situation. It's worth Lecavalier. The team will progress whoever is in net next year out of Halak Price or Huet, might as well cut the spending.(IMO) Granted its a risk, that why Id sign a veteran UFA, cheap.
They don't come more cheap than when they are from your own organization. You don't make a point there and you never aknowledged the rise of the cap I mentionned.

Quote:
Finally, I don't want to be "right" I just want you to get my point. I'm getting yours 100% clear, it's reasonable, I just disagree on your salary outlook.
Well, come see me in July 2009 and tell how far off I was..... I can't wait till then.

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02-12-2008, 11:28 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Komi hasn't 10 years of experience.... You still remain with your example of Hammer, yet its ridiculous, as they are of way different age, Hammer has a far superior PPG career average. Vlochnkov leads in the same categories as you talked about for Komi, yet he only makes 2,5 mil.... maybe you should look at real examples instead of feeble ones.
Volchenkov was terribly surprising at this salary, he could have have 3.5-4m just playing his cards right. Right, Hammer brings a bit more offense and got more experience, he signed his contract in 2007. (I.e he would be worth more come 2009) Komisarek signing for the same value in 2009 is actually lower value.



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Because Gomez 1- has won a cup 2- has way more experience 3- hit the market
A cup yeah, but he wasnt a real big keg on that run. Way more experience, not so much. Do I think pleckanec will sign for 6-7m? No I don't because we will sign him early. Please read what I write. I'm just saying that it will be his value at the end of next year after another PPG season.(That he might not do...)


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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Your arguments are all based on Pleks hitting the market. Odds are very slim he will do so if the Habs want to keep him.... Tell me, when the Habs wanted to keep Markov, did he hit the market? Huet? Kovy? Gainey, if he wants to keep a player, tries to sign him before he can take up market value.... At least stick to the reality of it. Gomez and Drury signed WITH OTHER teams. Here were talking about signing with his own team. Your comparisons are quite feeble.
I don't make any arguments about that, I'm just saying "if". If he hits the market he will be Gomez comparable. Are you pretending he will cost us 5m$ if we sign him June 5th 2009.


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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Yes age has something to do with it. You give no reason to make us beleive otherwise, no arguments whatsoever. Should we believe you because you are an authority on the effects of age on hockey players??? You're a real joke man, people are questionning Koivu's own abilities and he's only reached 34. Age DOES make a difference. It's been almost 6-8 years that Chelios is not asking for much from the Wings. Give me one example of a player (not a much higher talent like Selanne) who was close to 40 years of age and still had over 5 mil. There aren't and again.... you think about him hitting the market, if he wants to stay in Montreal, he knows he musn't do that. You're the one making much speculation. No team will take a 5 mil risk on a player known for inconsistency and of old age.
You can't try to make comparisons with age, its about production and expectation of production and what Kovalev want. Koivu was slowing down since last year. Kovalev doesnt have the same genes and/or the same training habits. What you should do with older players is keep the contract short, but it might still cost us 5-6m$ for him.(That will be worth it because of our year-to year evaluation.) Like Selanne, as long as Kovalev will bring 30 goals-70 pts to the table he will get 5m$+ Like Selanne he might stay at the level we have seen him this year for 3-4 more years. Selanne salary this year will be a prorata of about 6m$.

Of course you can also go with bonus heavy contracts, to be safer. Doesnt change the fact that he might cost 5-6m$ to your cap and that he will not take a paycut because theres a 38 on his driver license.


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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
But nothing says it will either than YOU. Your ballparks were used as extremes from on end to the other. Too high of salary... too low of trade capability. YOU HAVE NO IDEA for what they could trade him for come two-three years from now. You're assuming a lot to say this will be a bad move. And the funny part is, real professionals as Gainey will sign him back. That tells a lot.
Right nobody have an idea but Gainey, I don't mind your critizing my numbers, they are just opinions.


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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
They don't come more cheap than when they are from your own organization. You don't make a point there and you never aknowledged the rise of the cap I mentionned.
I did, I even disagree with it. My number is 60M$ for Lecavalier summer.

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Well, come see me in July 2009 and tell how far off I was..... I can't wait till then.
Sure, I don't mind. In fact, I'd like to be proven wrong.

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02-12-2008, 11:28 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's why you need to identify your future core players early and get them signed cheaper and earlier.
Indeed.

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02-12-2008, 11:35 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Volchenkov was terribly surprising at this salary, he could have have 3.5-4m just playing his cards right. Right, Hammer brings a bit more offense and got more experience, he signed his contract in 2007. (I.e he would be worth more come 2009) Komisarek signing for the same value in 2009 is actually lower value.





A cup yeah, but he wasnt a real big keg on that run. Way more experience, not so much. Do I think pleckanec will sign for 6-7m? No I don't because we will sign him early. Please read what I write. I'm just saying that it will be his value at the end of next year after another PPG season.(That he might not do...)




I don't make any arguments about that, I'm just saying "if". If he hits the market he will be Gomez comparable. Are you pretending he will cost us 5m$ if we sign him June 5th 2009.



You can't try to make comparisons with age, its about production and expectation of production and what Kovalev want. Koivu was slowing down since last year. Kovalev doesnt have the same genes and/or the same training habits. What you should do with older players is keep the contract short, but it might still cost us 5-6m$ for him.(That will be worth it because of our year-to year evaluation.) Like Selanne, as long as Kovalev will bring 30 goals-70 pts to the table he will get 5m$+ Like Selanne he might stay at the level we have seen him this year for 3-4 more years. Selanne salary this year will be a prorata of about 6m$.

Of course you can also go with bonus heavy contracts, to be safer. Doesnt change the fact that he might cost 5-6m$ to your cap and that he will not take a paycut because theres a 38 on his driver license.



Right nobody have an idea but Gainey, I don't mind your critizing my numbers, they are just opinions.




I did, I even disagree with it. My number is 60M$ for Lecavalier summer.



Sure, I don't mind. In fact, I'd like to be proven wrong.

Round and round we go..... sawing logs right now.

You still haven't given examples similar to Kovy to say 5-6 mil... he would be a first.

We'll see in July 09.... until then, this is getting boring and irritating as you constantly pass over arguments and repeat your own.

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