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Does ethnic origin relate to toughness?

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Old
01-29-2004, 10:47 AM
  #1
BLACKBURN
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Does ethnic origin relate to toughness?

Ive read a couple of threads about various countries and players of various races and origins and thought id ask if it realted to toughness. I only am asking as it seems a lot of names from the UK are tough players in the NHL or were.

Examples of curreny guys are -

Shelley
Parker
Godard
Neil
Peters
McKenzie
McCarthy (well he was tough)
McCallister
Boulton
Brookbank
Cummins
May
Mckenna
O'Donnell

many more and also names that I wasnt sure of origin like Doull, Erskine, Johnson etc.

Past players like -

Twist
Oreilly
Ray
Brown
Wilson
Gillies
McSorely
Ferguson
Williams
Johnathon

Now im not trying so start a "my countrys tougher then yours" debate, but I just thought it would be interesting to see if there is any corrolation between tough guys and ethnic origin.

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Old
01-29-2004, 11:18 AM
  #2
Frozen North
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Enrico Ciccone
Tony Tuzzolino
Dino Cicerelli

Italy represented nicely

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Old
01-29-2004, 01:17 PM
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hillbilly
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American's aren't aloud to fight in junior hockey. so they don't grow up with that role when they are 16. They have to learn coming out of college. so I guess it's harder to learn

here are some american tough guys

Brashear
Cummins(he's listed as being born in America on hockeyfights.com)
LaCouture
Tibbets(NUTCASE)
Andre Roy
Brad Norton
Ty Jones (AHL)
John Craighead
Chris Tamer
Chris Clark
Jesse Boulerice

BTW wasn't Tuzzolino born in the U.S.

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Old
01-29-2004, 06:29 PM
  #4
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I've never noticed one particular nationality having an unusually big share of the goon pool. But a few years back I remember looking and seeing that a disproportionate number of them were from smaller towns. Makes sense, I guess - if you want to get out by playing hockey, you'll do whatever it takes to make it. I don't know if that still holds up, though.

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Old
01-29-2004, 06:38 PM
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Oiler94
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Also, I've noticed Carter is the only black player in the NHL that isn't a tough guy or a goalie..

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Old
01-29-2004, 06:44 PM
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MLH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiler94
Also, I've noticed Carter is the only black player in the NHL that isn't a tough guy or a goalie..
Jean Luc Grand-Pierre

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Old
01-29-2004, 06:50 PM
  #7
BlackJack21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BartG101
Jean Luc Grand-Pierre

1st Grand piere is a tough guy... and Have you ever seen Carter fight!!! Wow...

That said, you are right, he is not a tough guy.

BJ21

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Old
01-29-2004, 07:08 PM
  #8
MLH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJack21
1st Grand piere is a tough guy
BJ21
He's the only tough guy I know that averaging well under a PIM a game.

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Old
01-29-2004, 07:12 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BartG101
He's the only tough guy I know that averaging well under a PIM a game.

Mike Grier, tough guy, but not a "Tough Guy". Hes an awesome awesome energy player. He'd have twice as many goals if his hands were softer.

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Old
01-29-2004, 07:14 PM
  #10
The Frugal Gourmet
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It's pretty clear that genetics can influence your "physique" and your "physique" can influence the way you play the game so... yes.

Of course, there's about a hundred other things that influence your personal toughness as well.

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01-29-2004, 09:56 PM
  #11
Big Deaner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiler94
Also, I've noticed Carter is the only black player in the NHL that isn't a tough guy or a goalie..
iggy

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Old
01-29-2004, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Deaner
iggy
Iggy'll fight...dont' worry about that...

I can't wait till "Sugar" Ray Emery makes Lalime retire.

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Old
01-29-2004, 10:27 PM
  #13
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RICHARD PARK! Muhahaha!

 
Old
01-29-2004, 10:34 PM
  #14
soya_sauce_chicken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly
American's aren't aloud to fight in junior hockey. so they don't grow up with that role when they are 16. They have to learn coming out of college. so I guess it's harder to learn

here are some american tough guys

Brashear
Cummins(he's listed as being born in America on hockeyfights.com)
LaCouture
Tibbets(NUTCASE)
Andre Roy
Brad Norton
Ty Jones (AHL)
John Craighead
Chris Tamer
Chris Clark
Jesse Boulerice

BTW wasn't Tuzzolino born in the U.S.
where's Roenick??


stonedkoala.. does richard even fight? i have yet to seem him scuff it out...

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Old
01-29-2004, 10:59 PM
  #15
Oiler94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Deaner
iggy
I never said 'Enforcer'

Iggy is a very tough guy who will fight when he has to

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Old
01-30-2004, 04:51 AM
  #16
c-carp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
Ive read a couple of threads about various countries and players of various races and origins and thought id ask if it realted to toughness. I only am asking as it seems a lot of names from the UK are tough players in the NHL or were.

Examples of curreny guys are -

Shelley
Parker
Godard
Neil
Peters
McKenzie
McCarthy (well he was tough)
McCallister
Boulton
Brookbank
Cummins
May
Mckenna
O'Donnell

many more and also names that I wasnt sure of origin like Doull, Erskine, Johnson etc.

Past players like -

Twist
Oreilly
Ray
Brown
Wilson
Gillies
McSorely
Ferguson
Williams
Johnathon

Now im not trying so start a "my countrys tougher then yours" debate, but I just thought it would be interesting to see if there is any corrolation between tough guys and ethnic origin.
I dont get your point most of these players were born in Canada? To me the UK has little to do with it.

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Old
01-30-2004, 05:17 AM
  #17
Oiler94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
I dont get your point most of these players were born in Canada? To me the UK has little to do with it.
I agree. Raised in Canada, and played their entire lives in Canada

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Old
01-30-2004, 05:55 AM
  #18
thestonedkoala
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Park hasn't really had a thrown down fight but he scuffles. I was joking!

 
Old
01-30-2004, 06:51 AM
  #19
c-carp
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Poland is represented By Krystof Oliwa.

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Old
01-30-2004, 07:29 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
Poland is represented By Krystof Oliwa.
which is completely negated by Czerkawski.

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Old
01-30-2004, 07:31 AM
  #21
c-carp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
which is completely negated by Czerkawski.
They definatly are polar opposites in playing style.

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Old
01-30-2004, 08:30 AM
  #22
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If you're interested in an in-depth analysis of that question, check out the chapter on violence in Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate. Apparently the human capacity for, and willingness to use, violence has an evolutionary basis which predates the existence of police forces which over time alleviated the need for men to redress wrongs done against them. He indicates that some ethnic groups' bias towards violence, in comparison with other groups, may be related to their cultural and economic context as it relates to their vulnerability to being taken advantage of. For example, he distinguishes Americans who are descended from English agricultural families in the North-East, to those descended from Scots involved in breeding sheep in the South: because it was easier to steal a sheep than make off grains or vegetables, the latter were quicker to seek redress than the former. He maintains that Southerners are on average quicker to anger than people from the North-East.

So it's entirely possible that their are plausible explanations for ethnic differences with respect to violence.


Last edited by VirginiaMtlExpat: 01-30-2004 at 08:51 AM.
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Old
01-30-2004, 01:39 PM
  #23
BLACKBURN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
I dont get your point most of these players were born in Canada? To me the UK has little to do with it.
But im talking about ethnic origin. The names that i have listed are ones that originate from the UK. Americans are descendents from other countries, mostly European, obviously excluding native americans and their names are usually from the country that their ancestors come from. My point is this. Is there a trate that toughness relates to your last name and therefore your ethnic background. This thread has seemed to go way off topic.

One poster had the right idea when listing Italian tough players.

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Old
01-30-2004, 03:59 PM
  #24
ColdSteelOnIce
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I dunno, I think it's a simple question, depending on how you mean ethnic origin.

If you mean "Where they grew up and played hockey," yes. If you mean, "Genetics," then no.

It's the same as basketball. European basketball is different than American in that there's a lot more passing and mid-range shooting. In America, you either drive to the hole and throw your ass around trying to make a lay-up, or you toss it inside to a big man who will elbow and lower shoulders until they put the shot up.

It's not fair to say that anglo-saxon players are tougher -- they're just raised to see the game differently, and I'm sure having a different outlook on violence plays into it, too.

But to get back to the question, the Blackhawks hired Alpo Suhonen, a coach for a Scandinavian hockey team. After the year he had been there, he had to retire because of health issues. By that time, all the fans hated him for the Blackhawks playing a "sissified" brand of hockey -- not the Blackhawk hockey everybody was used to.

So I'd say it's pretty much fact.

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Old
01-30-2004, 04:06 PM
  #25
Epoch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly

here are some american tough guys

Brashear
Cummins(he's listed as being born in America on hockeyfights.com)
LaCouture
Tibbets(NUTCASE)
Andre Roy
Brad Norton
Ty Jones (AHL)
John Craighead
Chris Tamer
Chris Clark
Jesse Boulerice
Don't forget Dale Purinton

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