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Keon or Clarke

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02-16-2008, 11:55 AM
  #1
Stonefly
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Keon or Clarke

Who do you feel was the better player and why?
Bobby Clarke or Dave Keon?

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02-16-2008, 12:12 PM
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Macman
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You couldn't find two more different players. Keon was a fast, smooth-skating two-way centre who put up points, checked the other team's best centre and took almost no penalties. Clarke was a fierce, sometimes deranged, centre who'd go through a brick wall to score or slit your throat. And lead the league in scoring. I'm a Leafs fan and loved Keon but I'd take Clarke.

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02-16-2008, 08:25 PM
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Snap Wilson
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Clarke, and it really isn't that close. Both players were better than their numbers. I don't think Trottier was the superior player at all, let alone "by a bit," but I don't know that there's anything to be gained by debating it.

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02-16-2008, 10:27 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Better defensive player. That's a good debate. Better player. That's Clarke.

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02-17-2008, 01:54 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman View Post
You couldn't find two more different players. Keon was a fast, smooth-skating two-way centre who put up points, checked the other team's best centre and took almost no penalties. Clarke was a fierce, sometimes deranged, centre who'd go through a brick wall to score or slit your throat. And lead the league in scoring. I'm a Leafs fan and loved Keon but I'd take Clarke.
This shocks people but Clarke never led the league in scoring. He did however have three Hart Trophies. Yeah it's no debate really. It's Clarke. I grow weary of this overrating of Keon. Yes he was a great Hall of Famer but you cant put him with the likes of Trottier, Clarke, Yzerman etc. He was never a superstar at any time in his career. Never a first team all-star and despite his all around game he never put up shocking point totals.

Look I like Keon but in recent years Leaf fans have sucked up to him by naming him the best Leaf ever. That's overrated him but oh well. Still it isnt fair to put him in the same breathe as Clarke. Keon was a great player and barely had a flaw and did everything right. The story on him was that he'd never have a bad game and it's true. While I believe that as well it still doesnt make him comparable to anyone in the Top 50 of all time

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02-17-2008, 02:11 PM
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jiggs 10
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It doesn't shock me. I knew Clarke never even came close to leading the league in scoring. Heck, a defenseman (Orr) outscored him by 35 points!

I'd take Keon each and every day over Clarke. Clarke was a product of Shero's "system", and without the goons around to protect him, he would have been far less effective. Keon would have been the exact same player anywhere he played. Keon was a for superior skater, stickhandler, scorer, and defensive player. Clarke was the slightly better passer, and slasher. What a GREAT talent to have!

Had Keon wanted to, he could have raised his scoring numbers considerably. But he was a team-first kind of player, and he covered up for teammates who got caught up ice. Had he played a more offensive style, he could have probably 100 more career points, maybe more. But he was a textbook example of a HOCKEY player.

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02-17-2008, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jiggs 10 View Post
It doesn't shock me. I knew Clarke never even came close to leading the league in scoring. Heck, a defenseman (Orr) outscored him by 35 points!

I'd take Keon each and every day over Clarke. Clarke was a product of Shero's "system", and without the goons around to protect him, he would have been far less effective. Keon would have been the exact same player anywhere he played. Keon was a for superior skater, stickhandler, scorer, and defensive player. Clarke was the slightly better passer, and slasher. What a GREAT talent to have!

Had Keon wanted to, he could have raised his scoring numbers considerably. But he was a team-first kind of player, and he covered up for teammates who got caught up ice. Had he played a more offensive style, he could have probably 100 more career points, maybe more. But he was a textbook example of a HOCKEY player.
Clarke is not very popular I know, heck I dont even like him but even I wont talk bad about his career and talent. Nothing to say bad about Keon but he wasnt at Clarke's level. Both had great teams they played on, so we cant use that as an excuse. But Clarke's peak was way higher. Yes he didnt win the scoring title but he WAS close many times. 2nd in '73. 5th in '74. 6th in '75. 2nd in '76. Keon never had those numbers. Plus both were great defensively. Maybe you give a slight edge to Keon but remember Clarke won the Selke and Keon didnt. Before you get into the fact that it wasnt around for most of Keon's career keep in mind is was not there for Clarke's prime either. Clarke could have easily won it in years like '73, '74.

No shame in having Bobby Orr outscore you one year ('74) by 35 points. Besides a lot is equal between Keon and Clarke but he has two significant things up on him clearly. One is peak, the other is offence.

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02-17-2008, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
Who do you feel was the better player and why?
Bobby Clarke or Dave Keon?
Bobby Clarke is maginitudes better. This is not even close.

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02-17-2008, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jiggs 10 View Post
It doesn't shock me. I knew Clarke never even came close to leading the league in scoring. Heck, a defenseman (Orr) outscored him by 35 points!
Never came close? Really. 10th in 71/72. 2nd in the NHL in points in 72/73. 5th in 73/74. 6th in 74/75. 2nd (by only 6 points) in 75/76. 8th in 76/77. 8th in 77/78.

So in CONSECUTIVE years he was 10th, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 8th, 8th while debatably being the best defensive forward EVERY YEAR in a 14-18 team NHL.

I mena Jiggs you are an oldtimer... but you prejudices are HUGE and OBVIOUS. You don't like dirty hockey. Clarke was dirty... but he was also great and dominant and a winner. Keon is not close. For a decade or so it is undebatable that Clarke was a top ten player overall in the entire world of players. Keon is not even close to that.

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02-17-2008, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Bobby Clarke is maginitudes better. This is not even close.
What exactly makes Clarke magnitudes better, pray tell.

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02-17-2008, 10:40 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10 View Post
I'd take Keon each and every day over Clarke. Clarke was a product of Shero's "system", and without the goons around to protect him, he would have been far less effective. Keon would have been the exact same player anywhere he played. Keon was a for superior skater, stickhandler, scorer, and defensive player. Clarke was the slightly better passer, and slasher. What a GREAT talent to have!
And the great myth continues on. Clarke didn't need anybody to protect him, he could fight his own battles just fine. The Flyers weren't the tough guys in a league of sissies. There were plenty of other guys on other prominent teams who could play rough. If somebody felt Clarke needed to be "taken care of", he would have been. Cashman, O'Reilly, Sanderson, McKenzie and company on the Bruins, or Shoenfeld and Korab on the Sabres blue line, and even Montreal with Risebrough and Giles Lupien. Every team headed into battle with guys capable of policing the ice, it would have been suicide not to.

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02-17-2008, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
What exactly makes Clarke magnitudes better, pray tell.
Hmmmm best player by far on a top team for a decade. THREE HART trophies.. TWO over Bobby Orr at his best.

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02-17-2008, 10:59 PM
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Remembering those Flyers games, it usually wasn't Clarke (or anyone else on the Flyers) who needed protection. Someone should have saved some of those old Flyers-Bruins tilts from the late 70s. Pure bedlam.

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02-17-2008, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
For a decade or so it is undebatable that Clarke was a top ten player overall in the entire world of players. Keon is not even close to that.
You see, here is one of those times where you cannot ascertain from stats or trophies the true worth of a player. Find yourself a few games with Keon and some with Clarke and then try and tell me Clarke is magnitudes better.
I would take Keon in every situation over Clarke. Without hesitation. He had more innate talent than Clarke and was as tenacious as anyone I've ever seen.

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02-17-2008, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
You see, here is one of those times where you cannot ascertain from stats or trophies the true worth of a player. Find yourself a few games with Keon and some with Clarke and then try and tell me Clarke is magnitudes better.
I would take Keon in every situation over Clarke. Without hesitation. He had more innate talent than Clarke and was as tenacious as anyone I've ever seen.
Well you are simply wrong. It is like picking Mike Fisher over Daniel Alfredsson. Fisher is great.. and a competitor. Clarke is well world class among the best in the world.

Seriusly how can you take Keon over Clarke? Are you a mega Leafs fan? Do you HATE Clarke? It is impossible to think Keon is better than Clarke if you watched both and if you watched Keon you watched Clarke.

Is Peca or Francis better? Is Carboneau or Sakic better?

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02-18-2008, 12:14 AM
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Stonefly
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Well you are simply wrong. It is like picking Mike Fisher over Daniel Alfredsson. Fisher is great.. and a competitor. Clarke is well world class among the best in the world.

Seriusly how can you take Keon over Clarke? Are you a mega Leafs fan? Do you HATE Clarke? It is impossible to think Keon is better than Clarke if you watched both and if you watched Keon you watched Clarke.

Is Peca or Francis better? Is Carboneau or Sakic better?
I am not a Leafs fan. Never was. I did however see a lot of the Leafs as that is what was on Saturday nights.
I also don't hate Clarke. I respect him. Probably more than most.
That's right. I watched both. Did you? No? Yet you can sit there and say it is impossible to think Keon is better than Clarke if you watched both when you didn't watch either???
Tell me what exactly Clarke did better than Keon. Offence?
the difference is not as great as you would think in that area.

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02-18-2008, 12:31 AM
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Kyle McMahon
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I am not a Leafs fan. Never was. I did however see a lot of the Leafs as that is what was on Saturday nights.
I also don't hate Clarke. I respect him. Probably more than most.
That's right. I watched both. Did you? No? Yet you can sit there and say it is impossible to think Keon is better than Clarke if you watched both when you didn't watch either???
Tell me what exactly Clarke did better than Keon. Offence?
the difference is not as great as you would think in that area.
The difference in offense between Clarke and Keon is large. Keon cracked 70 points twice, his career high being 76. Clarke broke the 80-point barrier eight times, with seasons of 119, 116, and 104. Keon played his prime years in a lower scoring era, but was still only a 50-60 point player most years. Compared with Clarke offensively, it's no contest.

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02-18-2008, 05:06 AM
  #18
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
The difference in offense between Clarke and Keon is large. Keon cracked 70 points twice, his career high being 76. Clarke broke the 80-point barrier eight times, with seasons of 119, 116, and 104. Keon played his prime years in a lower scoring era, but was still only a 50-60 point player most years. Compared with Clarke offensively, it's no contest.
In maybe more realistic terms.

Top 10 finishes in points:
Clarke: 10th, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 8th, 8th
Keon: 10th, 9th

Top 10 finishes in assists:
Clarke: 3rd, 10th, 1st, 1st, 6th, 4th, 9th, 8th, 5th
Keon:

Top 10 finishes in goals:
Clarke:
Keon: 8th, 8th, 6th

So Clarke was a top scorer longer and peaked much higher, but Keon was a better goal scorer. What's often forgotten with Clarke is his excellent playmaking skills.

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