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Off-Topic, All season....Again! The Official Philadelphia Phillies Thread V2.0

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Old
07-22-2004, 10:15 PM
  #126
paxtang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Wolf is not the same guy he was.

DO NOT make Utley the starter and DO NOT trade Polanco at this juncture of the season, he is another guy who adds depth to your infeild, I think the Phillies have great depth on the bench. Utley and Perez have shown to be clutch players, and if you need him to, Polanco can play 3B, Utley can be the 2B and you still have Perez who can play every IF position (Polanco is also very versatile). You need guys like these down the stretch, espically with the depth of the bench, you can never have too much depth on the bench, and if you need to make a decision about the future of Utley that can be done after the season.
What about Wolf makes you think he isn't the same guy he was? He has an outstanding ERA, he's the same Wolf as old, outstanding one day, not so hot the next. Wolf is very talented but not consitatn enough, that's always been his problem, but he is as good as ever.

Utley shoudl play over Polanco right now simply because he is a better hitter. Hell, if you want to bench Polanco and not trade him cuz we need this depth, fine, but there is no reason Polanco should be taking his at bats from him. Polanco has been as bad as Leiby.

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07-22-2004, 10:25 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxtang
What about Wolf makes you think he isn't the same guy he was? He has an outstanding ERA, he's the same Wolf as old, outstanding one day, not so hot the next. Wolf is very talented but not consitatn enough, that's always been his problem, but he is as good as ever.

Utley shoudl play over Polanco right now simply because he is a better hitter. Hell, if you want to bench Polanco and not trade him cuz we need this depth, fine, but there is no reason Polanco should be taking his at bats from him. Polanco has been as bad as Leiby.
IN his last 4 starts, Wolf did not get into the 6th inning. He's leaving pitches over the plate and he is not going after pitched with his fast ball. He never left breaking balls out there, guys like Mike Lowell will feast on those pitches.

You can't throw Utley in such a situation as an everyday player in the middle of a pennant race. That is too much pressure to put on a rookie, Polanco has at least been there before, and Polanco isn't getting paid to be a star offenssive player he is paid for his defense, hence he can play 5 positions.

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07-22-2004, 11:53 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
IN his last 4 starts, Wolf did not get into the 6th inning. He's leaving pitches over the plate and he is not going after pitched with his fast ball. He never left breaking balls out there, guys like Mike Lowell will feast on those pitches.

You can't throw Utley in such a situation as an everyday player in the middle of a pennant race. That is too much pressure to put on a rookie, Polanco has at least been there before, and Polanco isn't getting paid to be a star offenssive player he is paid for his defense, hence he can play 5 positions.
In his last start against the Mets Wolf pitched fine, despite getting the early hook. Wolf has left pitches over the plate before, he isn't going to throw that many more HR balls than in the past, and the difference that is there is more than likely due to CBP. Even if his last 4 starts had sucked royally, if you are ready to give up on a 27 year old pitcher who currently has a 3.87 ERA, well I don't know what to say. Wolf is an off and on guy, he'll be fine. To say he is slightly slumping is one thing, to say he "isn't the guy he once was" because of 4 mediocre starts is, well, I don't know what it is.

Polanco is a career .291 hitter who is hitting .263. He is getting paid to be a quality number 2 hitter who sprays the ball, and he isn't hitting well at all. He is a solid second baseman, but if he isn't hitting, Utley's D isn't enough of a downgrade to keep him in over Utlely. And while Utley may be a "rookie", he played in 43 games last year, has playe din 43 games this year, and hasn't looked out of place. He isn't a kid, he's 25 now, I don't think he woudl be overwhelmed by being in a penant race, and even if he was, just because Polanco has been there before doesn't mean he is doing it well this year. Experiences helps, but if you aren't hitting, it means nothing. The Phils need secondary hitting besids the middle hitters, and Utley brings that. In twice as many AB, Polanco has half as many RBI's. Besides, your arguement before was that you need to keep Utley on the bench for depth, now it is because Polanco is a better player? Utley is the better option.

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07-23-2004, 06:43 AM
  #129
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The arguement isn't whether or not Utley is better, the arguement is whether or not a rookie who would be the everyday 2B should play 70 games as a starter between now and the end of the season and the answer is a resounding "No." You can't throw in a rookie, tell him he is now the everyday player at that position and expect him to be mentally tough enough and effective enough to be the player that you need offensively and defensively. If the Phillies pick up Steve Finley or someone like that, Polanco is going to be out of the #2 spot anyways and moved down to probably #7 or 8. But when you're in a race like this, fighting 3 other teams in your own division, you need guys who know how to play in those situations and Polanco has been doing that all season, and now is not the time to switch to the rookie, the time to do that was back in April (when Polanco was hurt), but to take a rookie and throw him in the middle of a pennant race and watch him fail will only do bad for the team, and you also take that bat away from your bench. That's poor handling of your (hopefully) future star of the team. Just look at Marlon Byrd, he was doing great in the last 2/3 of the season and now he is in Scranton.

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07-23-2004, 07:27 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
The arguement isn't whether or not Utley is better, the arguement is whether or not a rookie who would be the everyday 2B should play 70 games as a starter between now and the end of the season and the answer is a resounding "No." You can't throw in a rookie, tell him he is now the everyday player at that position and expect him to be mentally tough enough and effective enough to be the player that you need offensively and defensively. If the Phillies pick up Steve Finley or someone like that, Polanco is going to be out of the #2 spot anyways and moved down to probably #7 or 8. But when you're in a race like this, fighting 3 other teams in your own division, you need guys who know how to play in those situations and Polanco has been doing that all season, and now is not the time to switch to the rookie, the time to do that was back in April (when Polanco was hurt), but to take a rookie and throw him in the middle of a pennant race and watch him fail will only do bad for the team, and you also take that bat away from your bench. That's poor handling of your (hopefully) future star of the team. Just look at Marlon Byrd, he was doing great in the last 2/3 of the season and now he is in Scranton.
Worked with Cabrera.

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07-23-2004, 11:15 AM
  #131
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So, according to you, a Rookie, despite the fact that he is 25, has played in over 80 games with the big club, and is a seasoned minor league vet, would have no chance of success, because its a pennant race? That makes pretty much no sense. You have no idea how good Chase Utley woudl or would not do in this situation. Why would letting him start now be a worse idea than letting him start months ago? I just don't think Utley is as mentally fragile as you think. I think its a poor baseball decision to let as solid a bat as Utley sit on the bench while Polanco continues to have a subpar season, based only on the fact that Polanco is a vet. That's like pitching Hernadez over Madson because of experience. Utley has been with the Phils long enough to be acclimated to the situation, and has played in enough games to handle the pressure of starting. I just don't see how you can be so sure that he woudl fall to pieces in a tough situation.

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07-23-2004, 02:06 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Grand slam Nick Punto!
You just had to add that,huh?

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07-23-2004, 04:46 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
Worked with Cabrera.
Cabrera was a forced move because Lowell got hurt, I'm positive Jack McKeon would have rather gotten a veteran in there, it happened to work out for him. If Polanco gets hurt and misses the rest of the season, I wouldn't argue the fact, Utley would be forced to play.

How can you say 80 games makes him a seasoned veteran? That's not even a half of a full season. Sure I'd like Utley to be another Cabrera, chances are that wouldn't be the case.


You can't compare pitchers to position players, they're a different breed. When a pitcher is on fire there is nothing you can do to stop them unlike the batters who can just get pitched around.

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07-23-2004, 05:21 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Cabrera was a forced move because Lowell got hurt, I'm positive Jack McKeon would have rather gotten a veteran in there, it happened to work out for him. If Polanco gets hurt and misses the rest of the season, I wouldn't argue the fact, Utley would be forced to play.

How can you say 80 games makes him a seasoned veteran? That's not even a half of a full season. Sure I'd like Utley to be another Cabrera, chances are that wouldn't be the case.


You can't compare pitchers to position players, they're a different breed. When a pitcher is on fire there is nothing you can do to stop them unlike the batters who can just get pitched around.
When did I call Utley a season vet? He just isn't this green kid that you act like he is, he has some experience in the pros, and plenty in the minors. I think at 25 he is more than ready to handle a pressue situation. Either way, a seasoned, yet slumping Polanco is not a good solution to the problem.

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07-23-2004, 06:02 PM
  #135
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I say,leave the infield as it is,but rotate Polanco and Utley over the days.

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07-23-2004, 06:33 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxtang
Either way, a seasoned, yet slumping Polanco is not a good solution to the problem.
He may be slumping, but he is much more valuable as a defensive presence, and if we want to pull Polanco out of the lineup because of his offense, I strongly suggest we (a) get a CF first and (b) bench Mike Lieberthal before Polanco.

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07-23-2004, 06:34 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
He may be slumping, but he is much more valuable as a defensive presence, and if we want to pull Polanco out of the lineup because of his offense, I strongly suggest we (a) get a CF first and (b) bench Mike Lieberthal before Polanco.
Yes,bench Lieberthal. :mad:

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07-23-2004, 07:41 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
He may be slumping, but he is much more valuable as a defensive presence, and if we want to pull Polanco out of the lineup because of his offense, I strongly suggest we (a) get a CF first and (b) bench Mike Lieberthal before Polanco.
Those aren't exactly equivalant situations.

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07-23-2004, 08:30 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carlson
Those aren't exactly equivalant situations.

If they get someone like Steve Finley, he would certainly hit 2nd and Polanco would probably hit 7th, but if we're talking about who has problems at the plate, Mike Lieberthal needs some help.

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07-23-2004, 08:39 PM
  #140
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The Phillies need somebody, anybody, I think their biggest need is a starting pitcher, followed by a top of the order hitter, most likely outfield. I was trying to think of deadline deals this team has pulled, and i'm coming up empty...they dealt for Turk Wendell in '01, dealt for Dan Plesac in '02, dealt for Todd Pratt in ? '02? And 5.5 ERA all star Mike Williams last season.

I'm confident the Braves are gonna make a move, they always do, it always works. Either an outfield bat to platoon in left, perhaps Larry Walker to play first base if they move some money around, a solid reliever, something...and if the philles dont come up with an impact player to turn this act around, they;re gonna be out of the playoffs again, and bowa will be looking for a job

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07-24-2004, 02:14 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
If they get someone like Steve Finley, he would certainly hit 2nd and Polanco would probably hit 7th, but if we're talking about who has problems at the plate, Mike Lieberthal needs some help.
He obviously needs help, but you don't get that by putting in Pratt unfortunately. I wasn't really commenting on the center field thing though.

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07-24-2004, 07:58 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Dave Carlson
He obviously needs help, but you don't get that by putting in Pratt unfortunately.
I know, I was.

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07-24-2004, 03:11 PM
  #143
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God Abbott is horrible!

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07-24-2004, 03:55 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by PizzapieZeppelin18
God Abbott is horrible!
do the Phillies not have ayone they can call up to replace him or millwood?

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07-24-2004, 04:34 PM
  #145
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Not that I know of.

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07-24-2004, 05:24 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
do the Phillies not have ayone they can call up to replace him or millwood?
Millwood's been very good since the break and the phillies have won the last 6 games in which he's started. He's starting to come around and hopefully will have a real good second half. As for Abbott, he's actually pitched pretty well his last few times out and has given the team a chance to win, which is all you can ask out of your 5th starter. But the team is looking for a starter and we'll see what happens in the week before the deadline.

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07-24-2004, 06:09 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
do the Phillies not have ayone they can call up to replace him or millwood?
How about Padilla? Something that people do overlook is that we will be getting Padilla back around August 10 and he arguably has the best stuff on the staff. I say getting Finley is our top priority right now. Any chance we could trade someone like Golson for him or a single A prospect or two?

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07-24-2004, 06:48 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
do the Phillies not have ayone they can call up to replace him or millwood?

They're waiting for Padilla, and then I'm sure Abbott will be put in the bullpen, and hopefully Hernandez goes home.


You can't rely on Padilla having all his stuff when he is ready to go though. I'm sure it will take a few starts before he's Vincente Padilla, one advantage to him being injuried is that he's not going to get burnt out in September, he will hopefully be the best pitcher on the staff that we will need him to be.

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07-25-2004, 02:49 PM
  #149
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Glanville

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07-25-2004, 03:10 PM
  #150
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Milton showed no heart. A real man would have ran into center and punched Suckville right in the face. What an *******.

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