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Hey GuyF, can we get an update on Rita?

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01-30-2004, 07:09 PM
  #51
Marconius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Where is this proven offensive ability? Chimera lead the team in goals/minutes played last year, does it make him proven?

You can look at his 13 NHL games and think he is a proven NHL player, but I look at his 180 AHL games, and I haven't seen the same thing.
You just proved my point. Chimera was putting up solid numbers last year and was given the ball to run with. He was not sent back down. Rita puts up soild number and.....back to the AHL
I think once you've invested as much as the Oilers have in Rita, you have to give him ahcance to prove himself in the NHL. It's simply bad asset managent to not give him a real shot in the NHL. I never said Rita was a proven NHL player, I said with the limited opportunity he's been provided, he's proven he can make things happen. I guess you're satisfied with the same players, giving the same half-ass effort every night?
I'm not saying keep Rita up no matter what. I'm saying give him 20 games of quality ice. If he proves to be poor defensively, or comes out with a lackluster effort, then yes, send him back down or trade him.

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01-30-2004, 07:16 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
You just proved my point. Chimera was putting up solid numbers last year and was given the ball to run with. He was not sent back down. Rita puts up soild number and.....back to the AHL
I think once you've invested as much as the Oilers have in Rita, you have to give him ahcance to prove himself in the NHL. It's simply bad asset managent to not give him a real shot in the NHL. I never said Rita was a proven NHL player, I said with the limited opportunity he's been provided, he's proven he can make things happen. I guess you're satisfied with the same players, giving the same half-ass effort every night?
I'm not saying keep Rita up no matter what. I'm saying give him 20 games of quality ice. If he proves to be poor defensively, or comes out with a lackluster effort, then yes, send him back down or trade him.
No I didn't prove your point... Chimera was given the ball because he proved that he didn't need the AHL anymore, so the Oilers had to give him a shot. 4 points in 12 games isn't solid numbers, it's 4th line numbers. During those 12 games, he also proved that he still had a heck of a lot of work to do before becoming an NHL player... but I guess we can ignore that because he scored 3 goals.

Why have the same players give a half-ass effort when you can bring in a totally new player to put in a half-ass effort... wow. That sure sends a good message.

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01-30-2004, 07:17 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
and standings-wise.....that makes a huge difference?
Wow... so is that officially giving up on the season then?

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01-30-2004, 07:23 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
No I didn't prove your point... Chimera was given the ball because he proved that he didn't need the AHL anymore, so the Oilers had to give him a shot. 4 points in 12 games isn't solid numbers, it's 4th line numbers. During those 12 games, he also proved that he still had a heck of a lot of work to do before becoming an NHL player... but I guess we can ignore that because he scored 3 goals.

Why have the same players give a half-ass effort when you can bring in a totally new player to put in a half-ass effort... wow. That sure sends a good message.
One player proves he doesn't need the AHL anymore
Another player proves he can produce at an NHL level
Don't you agree both are good reasons to keep them on the big team?
Every rookie has to learn facets of the NHL game....in the NHL. If a barefaced rookie can walk into the NHL and score 3 goals in 12 games, then, yes, given our anemic offense, keep him up and develop him.
And I allready addressed what MacT should do if Rita puts in half-assed effort after 20 games - send him down or trade him. At least then we have a coherent idea of what he brings to the table.
and if 4 points in 12 games are 4th line numbers, then i don't see the harm of sitting one of our 15 4th line players in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, we ahve second line talent stagnating in the NHL

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01-30-2004, 07:25 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Wow... so is that officially giving up on the season then?
I call it taking a calculated risk. The current roster has proven time and time again they come out flat in our must-win games with little to no offense. What if Rita ignites the second line and we sneak into the playoffs?
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- I got news for you, its broke, time to start trying some fixes

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01-30-2004, 07:39 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
One player proves he doesn't need the AHL anymore
Another player proves he can produce at an NHL level
Don't you agree both are good reasons to keep them on the big team?
Every rookie has to learn facets of the NHL game....in the NHL. If a barefaced rookie can walk into the NHL and score 3 goals in 12 games, then, yes, given our anemic offense, keep him up and develop him.
And I allready addressed what MacT should do if Rita puts in half-assed effort after 20 games - send him down or trade him. At least then we have a coherent idea of what he brings to the table.
and if 4 points in 12 games are 4th line numbers, then i don't see the harm of sitting one of our 15 4th line players in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, we ahve second line talent stagnating in the NHL
3 goals in 12 NHL games doesn't mean producing when you have glaring deficiancies in your game.

I understand that he has to get a shot... but don't try and make it sound like he is deserving or that he is being overlooked, or that Oilers management has done him wrong... that is crap. He is getting a shot simply because the Oilers need to see if he can do it, and the team is struggling so they might as well do it now.

I am pretty sure everyone who has seen him knows what he can bring to the table... that isn't the question. It's not about his talents.

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01-30-2004, 07:42 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
I call it taking a calculated risk. The current roster has proven time and time again they come out flat in our must-win games with little to no offense. What if Rita ignites the second line and we sneak into the playoffs?
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- I got news for you, its broke, time to start trying some fixes
A calculated risk?

You must have thrown out your calculator... Rita isn't going to light up anything if the opposition starts of with the puck 60-65% of the time. I'll honestly be suprised if Rita shows much of anything up here with the exception of 5 or 6 games, and that's if he plays 20.

Fixing it doesn't mean taking your weakest position and further crippling it.

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01-30-2004, 07:53 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Wow... so is that officially giving up on the season then?
If you read the Self Fulfilling Prophecy thread, you know my position on that.

But I am all for giving the opportunity to someone who the team at one time thought was going to be a top 6 player to play as a top 9 player for 30 games. If he is not, he is not, then no one way contract, trade him in an package deal from anyone who comes along.(I would guess Columbus or Nashville or Pittsburgh would give him a shot in the bigs.)

And since he has been given a whole 13 games and you feel Rita is a write off....get his no good for nothing inconsistent butt out of dodge.

Make a decision on him. Don't let him rot. Because that is what they are doing.

You may have seen him in the minors a whole bunch. I saw him at training camp two years ago and he was arguably the best player on the ice, drill after drill, shift after shift....and you know what that got him, a trip to Hamilton because of other players' one way contracts.(Dan Cleary who got way more shots than anyone in the history of the NHL ever deserved.)

So don't come to me with this inconsistent, give up on the season B.S. because if this organization can put up with Georges Laraque's inconsistency, Horcoff's, Pisani's, Chimera's and everyone else over the last two year's, the why in God's blue blazes wouldn't you just give Rita 30 games to prove his salt?

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01-30-2004, 07:54 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Fixing it doesn't mean taking your weakest position and further crippling it.
no i disagree if things are broken you need a shake up and calling up a rookie (whose hunger for the game is not known) it might just kick start a few things.

suppose he gets lucky with his shots and thereby goes on a tear it'll bring the confidence right up. if it he doesn't then there isn't a change.

Rita gets his shot if the Oil go down with injuries or the playoffs are completely unrealistic, as of now they are nearing unrealistic.

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01-30-2004, 07:58 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
3 goals in 12 NHL games doesn't mean producing when you have glaring deficiancies in your game.

I understand that he has to get a shot... but don't try and make it sound like he is deserving or that he is being overlooked, or that Oilers management has done him wrong... that is crap. He is getting a shot simply because the Oilers need to see if he can do it, and the team is struggling so they might as well do it now.

I am pretty sure everyone who has seen him knows what he can bring to the table... that isn't the question. It's not about his talents.
I think the issue is really this simple and I agree with Dawgbone it's not like were holding him down as he has not yet dominated the AHL ranks his big problems were defensive game, consistancy, and puck retension/turnovers I think he has made progress at adressing these issues in his game. If he has done enough to warrant a permanent NHL spot I guess we will have to just wait and see but am not at all displeased with how the Oilers organization have handled Rita to this point as much as I would like to see him playing in the NHL the fact of the matter he has not earned it.

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01-30-2004, 07:59 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
A calculated risk?

You must have thrown out your calculator... Rita isn't going to light up anything if the opposition starts of with the puck 60-65% of the time.
My calculator says 49 pts in 52 games means whatever we have up here isn't working either, but retain the status quo I guess. Maybe with all the repeated second/third/fourth chances MacT's favorites are getting, at some point they'll come up big in a big game....

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01-30-2004, 08:03 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
A calculated risk?

You must have thrown out your calculator... Rita isn't going to light up anything if the opposition starts of with the puck 60-65% of the time. I'll honestly be suprised if Rita shows much of anything up here with the exception of 5 or 6 games, and that's if he plays 20.

Fixing it doesn't mean taking your weakest position and further crippling it.
Giving Rita some playing time isn't going to affect our entire playoff hopes. Its a low risk, high reward decision. The worst that could happen is that he stinks out the joint, in which case his ice time will be decreased in favor of our better players like Smyth. If he still doesn't do much the next few games then its back to the minors he goes. No harm no foul.

The best thing that could happen is that Rita manages to shake off his inconsistency and score some timely goals for Edmonton, keeping them in the playoff race, and making Rita a full time NHLer. I don't see what the big problem is with giving youngsters a chance. Isn't that what teams are supposed to do with youngsters? Take a small risk with them?

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01-30-2004, 08:03 PM
  #63
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I read on another post that Rita isn't a 30 goal scorer. BUT, according to his limited stint last year, with very little ice time, he can be a 20 goal scorer. Wow, what a terrible offensive player, after all look at all the 20 goal scorers on this team...York, Smyth, Torres, Dvorak...ummm...errr...oh, I guess that's all. So we have a guy that could be a top goal scorer on this team and the coaches would rather go with pluggers.

I find it interesting that Lowe would say that Rita's situation is a lot like Chimera's. Chimera was given a one-way deal, played well last season as the 12th/13th forward, and this year has regressed, often looking completely clueless when he has the puck.

LET'S all hope that Rita isn't a lot like Chimera.

Personally, I would like to see Hemsky sit for at least the game against L.A. and insert Rita on a line with Smyth and Oates/Horcoff. As far as I'm concerned Bisai is a quick fix untill Marty returns, but Rita could be a long term solution on the PP (not the sole reason for a turn-around, but a decent contributor, and a guy willing to shoot the puck) and as a good all around player. Rita is one of a handful of players in the entire organization with hands. He has a great shot, he's strong on the puck and in my opinion works hard when given the chance (and works hard to get a chance). If Rita proves that he can contribute like a 2nd liner (that means a point every 2nd game or so) and puts the puck in the net then the team must make a decision on some of the pluggers. If Rita produces there is no reason at all that Chimera, Pisani or Laraque should have more secure work than him.

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01-30-2004, 08:05 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
I think the issue is really this simple and I agree with Dawgbone it's not like were holding him down as he has not yet dominated the AHL ranks his big problems were defensive game, consistancy, and puck retension/turnovers I think he has made progress at adressing these issues in his game. If he has done enough to warrant a permanent NHL spot I guess we will have to just wait and see but am not at all displeased with how the Oilers organization have handled Rita to this point as much as I would like to see him playing in the NHL the fact of the matter he has not earned it.
What have Horcoff or Pisani done to earn the icetime they get? How about Danny Boy Cleary in his time?

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01-30-2004, 08:06 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
3 goals in 12 NHL games doesn't mean producing when you have glaring deficiancies in your game.
yet MacT continues to stick by players who are not doing especially great defensively while having glaring offensive deficianices in their game. Every coach in the league would prefer to have a roster of 23 well rounded players on the team, but unfortunately that's not going to happen. MacT has definitely figured out that there is a role for defensivley gifted players with no offensive upside. He fails to recognize that there is also a role for offensively gifted players with defensive shortcomings.

Quote:
I understand that he has to get a shot... but don't try and make it sound like he is deserving or that he is being overlooked, or that Oilers management has done him wrong... that is crap. He is getting a shot simply because the Oilers need to see if he can do it, and the team is struggling so they might as well do it now.
I simply argue that Rita has proved he deserves a shot as much as guys like Psiani/Chimrea/Horcoff have proved they need to be benched

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01-30-2004, 08:06 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
If you read the Self Fulfilling Prophecy thread, you know my position on that.

But I am all for giving the opportunity to someone who the team at one time thought was going to be a top 6 player to play as a top 9 player for 30 games. If he is not, he is not, then no one way contract, trade him in an package deal from anyone who comes along.(I would guess Columbus or Nashville or Pittsburgh would give him a shot in the bigs.)
The point I am trying to make, is everyone on here is getting on Lowe's back, or Mac-T's back for mishandling poor Jani Rita... well that's crap and untrue. Rita hasn't been given a shot because he hasn't shown that he deserves it yet. Being the best player on the ice evey 3rd game isn't good enough when you should be the best player on the ice every night. I am not mad at the Oilers for giving him a shot, I'm pissed at Rita for not forcing them (with his play) to give it to him earlier, or to give it to him in better circumstances... not well we need to see if he can do it or get rid of him.

Quote:
And since he has been given a whole 13 games and you feel Rita is a write off....get his no good for nothing inconsistent butt out of dodge.
When did I say write off? I actually said he'd make a pretty good NHLer, but he hasn't progressed as well as he should, at least from the consistency aspect of it.

Quote:
Make a decision on him. Don't let him rot. Because that is what they are doing.
How is he rotting? This is what I don't understand. Rotting is sitting in the press box for 15 games in a row, not getting 20 minutes+ of icetime in all situations every game. It's tough to make a decision on someone when you don't know what you have.

Quote:
You may have seen him in the minors a whole bunch. I saw him at training camp two years ago and he was arguably the best player on the ice, drill after drill, shift after shift....and you know what that got him, a trip to Hamilton because of other players' one way contracts.(Dan Cleary who got way more shots than anyone in the history of the NHL ever deserved.)
Once again... scrimmages and drills are one thing. Do you remember the exhibition games? As it got closer to the end, and more and more teams started putting their teams together, Rita disappeared. Funny how you mention Cleary, because he was the opposite, he started slow in camp, but by the end of it he was leading the team in scoring... so who honestly gets the shot? The guy who started hot, and then faded against stronger competition, or the guy who started slow and got better against stronger competition. I remember that training camp as well. Everyone marvelled about Rita. The Journal and Sun gave daily reports on how he would blow a shot past a goalie, or muscle through a defenceman and score a nice goal. But do you know what? Those started to go away as the veterans started to pick up their play.

Quote:
So don't come to me with this inconsistent, give up on the season B.S. because if this organization can put up with Georges Laraque's inconsistency, Horcoff's, Pisani's, Chimera's and everyone else over the last two year's, the why in God's blue blazes wouldn't you just give Rita 30 games to prove his salt?
Once again, and I don't understand the difficulty in understanding this:

inconsitent in ahl = even more inconsitent in NHL.

You don't jump up a level and suddenly gain it... chances are it is reversed. The Oilers have probably been waiting for Jani Rita to grab the bull by the horns at the AHL level before giving him his shot.

He never did... and that is managements fault?

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01-30-2004, 08:12 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
My calculator says 49 pts in 52 games means whatever we have up here isn't working either, but retain the status quo I guess. Maybe with all the repeated second/third/fourth chances MacT's favorites are getting, at some point they'll come up big in a big game....
So in order to improve the teams chances of winning, you take the teams worst position (the one in most need of something), and further reduce it?

That's like losing your hand, and chopping off your foot to stop the bleeding from your wrist.

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01-30-2004, 08:14 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
Giving Rita some playing time isn't going to affect our entire playoff hopes. Its a low risk, high reward decision. The worst that could happen is that he stinks out the joint, in which case his ice time will be decreased in favor of our better players like Smyth. If he still doesn't do much the next few games then its back to the minors he goes. No harm no foul.

The best thing that could happen is that Rita manages to shake off his inconsistency and score some timely goals for Edmonton, keeping them in the playoff race, and making Rita a full time NHLer. I don't see what the big problem is with giving youngsters a chance. Isn't that what teams are supposed to do with youngsters? Take a small risk with them?
It is when you are talking about taking half our centres with NHL experience out of the lineup (which was what I was responding too).

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01-30-2004, 08:14 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by windowlicker
What have Horcoff or Pisani done to earn the icetime they get? How about Danny Boy Cleary in his time?
Work Hard

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01-30-2004, 08:16 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
The point I am trying to make, is everyone on here is getting on Lowe's back, or Mac-T's back for mishandling poor Jani Rita... well that's crap and untrue. Rita hasn't been given a shot because he hasn't shown that he deserves it yet. Being the best player on the ice evey 3rd game isn't good enough when you should be the best player on the ice every night.
Are you telling me if any of Pisani/Horcoff/Chimera goes back to the farm, they turn out to be the best player in the AHL? I don't think so.
Quote:
I am not mad at the Oilers for giving him a shot, I'm pissed at Rita for not forcing them (with his play) to give it to him earlier, or to give it to him in better circumstances... not well we need to see if he can do it or get rid of him.
I agree it would be nice if Rita forced the issue. I think he has at times, but the Oilers refusal to give him a chance has resulted in a defeated attitude. What happens if you beat a dog for no apparent reason? The dog eventually just accepts the beatings and lays donw in complancey. Its a proven that when someone feels they have no control over the situation with their actions, they simply accept what is happening and make the best of it.

Quote:
How is he rotting? This is what I don't understand. Rotting is sitting in the press box for 15 games in a row, not getting 20 minutes+ of icetime in all situations every game. It's tough to make a decision on someone when you don't know what you have.
Exactly, it's hard to make a decision if you refuse to see exactly what you have. So give him a 20 game try out, see what you
have with Rita and then make an informed decision.
Quote:
inconsistent in ahl = even more inconsitent in NHL.
I disagree I think there could be plenty of situation where inconsistent in ahl doesn't necessarily= even more inconsitent in NHL.


Last edited by Marconius: 01-30-2004 at 08:22 PM.
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01-30-2004, 08:18 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
yet MacT continues to stick by players who are not doing especially great defensively while having glaring offensive deficianices in their game. Every coach in the league would prefer to have a roster of 23 well rounded players on the team, but unfortunately that's not going to happen. MacT has definitely figured out that there is a role for defensivley gifted players with no offensive upside. He fails to recognize that there is also a role for offensively gifted players with defensive shortcomings.
Offensively gifted? Wow... grasping at straws aren't you? The only way Rita is going to be an NHL player is if he plays a 2 way game. He isn't good enough at either end to be a one dimensional NHL player.

Quote:
I simply argue that Rita has proved he deserves a shot as much as guys like Psiani/Chimrea/Horcoff have proved they need to be benched
And you are wrong. At least when Pisani isn't scoring he is doing a hell of a job in his own end. Chimera is having a bad year and is being benched anyway, so you aren't taking playing time away from him. Horcoff is officially our highest scoring healthy centre... and only one of two centres we have that has NHL experience. Rita hasn't done anything to deserve a shot this year, other than being in the last year of his contract. That is a fact.

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01-30-2004, 08:27 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
Are you telling me if any of Pisani/Horcoff/Chimera goes back to the farm, they turn out to be the best player in the AHL? I don't think so.
Chimera and Horcoff already did it.

Quote:
I agree it would be nice if Rita forced the issue. I think he has at times, but the Oilers refusal to give him a chance has resulted in a defeated attitude. What happens if you beat a dog for no apparent reason? The dog eventually just accepts the beatings and lays donw in complancey. Its a proven that when someone feels they have no control over the situation with their actions, they simply accept what is happening and make the best of it.
That is crap, absolute crap. Many other players have to go to the AHL and work on aspects of their game, Why? because there you are given as much ice time as you need, succeeed or fail. The Oilers never sent Rita down for no apparant reason, nor have they kept him down for no apparant reason.

Quote:
Exactly, it's hard to make a decision if you refuse to see exactly what you have. So give him a 20 game try out, see what you have with Rita and then make an informed decision.
The sad part is, if this was last season, he wouldn't even get a callup, and this wouldn't be an issue. The only reason he is getting a call is because the Oilers need to make a decision on him, and that is by no means managements fault. Defeatist attitude my ass. If that's how psychologically weak Rita is, then he won't survive the NHL.

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01-30-2004, 08:29 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Offensively gifted? Wow... grasping at straws aren't you? The only way Rita is going to be an NHL player is if he plays a 2 way game. He isn't good enough at either end to be a one dimensional NHL player.
i'd call 4 pts in 12 games more offensively gifted then half the Oiler's roster
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And you are wrong. At least when Pisani isn't scoring he is doing a hell of a job in his own end. Chimera is having a bad year and is being benched anyway, so you aren't taking playing time away from him. Horcoff is officially our highest scoring healthy centre... and only one of two centres we have that has NHL experience. Rita hasn't done anything to deserve a shot this year, other than being in the last year of his contract. That is a fact.
At least when Pisani isn't scoring? 6 goals in 46 games? Seems like he's 'not scoring' an awful lot. I'm sure his defensive prowess has come in real handy in all those 1 goal games we lostAnd when Horcoff is your highest scoring centre, maybe it's time to reevaluate the squad and makes some changes, perhaps even take some risks?

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01-30-2004, 08:36 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Chimera and Horcoff already did it.
A matter of opinion, I suppose

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That is crap, absolute crap. Many other players have to go to the AHL and work on aspects of their game, Why? because there you are given as much ice time as you need, succeeed or fail. The Oilers never sent Rita down for no apparant reason, nor have they kept him down for no apparant reason.
Unfortunately not every player is a mentally tough, complete 2-way player. You have to guage strengths & weakness. And yes, I believe that after repeated failures to give Rita a REAL shot, maybe it's getting to him. Maybe he's starting to lsiten ot that voice in his head that says: "No matter what you do, they aren't going to give you a chance, just play out the season and get the hell out of this organization"

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The sad part is, if this was last season, he wouldn't even get a callup, and this wouldn't be an issue. The only reason he is getting a call is because the Oilers need to make a decision on him, and that is by no means managements fault. Defeatist attitude my ass. If that's how psychologically weak Rita is, then he won't survive the NHL.
The sad part is once again MacT has stubbornly stood by his favorites, even when it's horribly apparent to the media & the fans that those 'hosses', those heart & soul grinders aren't doing the job.

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01-30-2004, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
i'd call 4 pts in 12 games more offensively gifted then half the Oiler's roster

At least when Pisani isn't scoring? 6 goals in 46 games? Seems like he's 'not scoring' an awful lot. I'm sure his defensive prowess has come in real handy in all those 1 goal games we lost
Fernando Pisani

81 GP 14g 13a 27pts - which is, interestingly enough, a 0.33p/g average.

Jani Rita

12 GP 3g 1a 4pts - even ignoring his one game callup 2 years ago, is a 0.33 p/g average.

Wow, so Fernando, who you are hating on right now has produced just as well as Rita has, but is better defensively. Any other arguments?

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