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Old
02-21-2008, 10:13 AM
  #51
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
Ah come on.... Ryder scores an average of 3 more goals per season, he can't pass the puck, he's awefull defensively, he's a non factor in the playoffs, he takes dumb ass penalties... pleeeeeeease.

This is a joke...
Okay, you switch Tanguay and Ryder's linemates over the past several years and we'd see how many goals Tanguay would have scored. And I can tell you that Ryder would be potting a lot more than 30 goals a season with Forsberg as his center.

He makes less cash, is a UFA so we could let him walk if he doesn't produce and he's heating up. Tanguay is having a bad year not playing with Iginla, makes too much cash and is more of a playmaker. Yes, I'd stick with Ryder.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-21-2008 at 10:20 AM.
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Old
02-21-2008, 10:29 AM
  #52
Le depisteur
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Originally Posted by BigM1ke View Post
His 2nd goal was a beauty.. but that's not the point! Ryder had 2 goals in his last game too but it doesn't erase the fact that he had a terrible year! And Tanguay isn't the type of player to have 80 assists lke Thornton! He's still good, don't get me wrong! I'm not saying he sucks, but he's overrated and I don't really want him, that's all!
How much overrated? You say absolutely nothing...

Tanguay's average stats (595 games/8 seasons):
82 gp 24 g 49a 73 pts 42pim +20 19.37% shooting

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Old
02-21-2008, 10:39 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
How much overrated? You say absolutely nothing...

Tanguay's average stats (595 games/8 seasons):
82 gp 24 g 49a 73 pts 42pim +20 19.37% shooting
I think most people acknowledge that he's a good player. He is.

But is he a 5.5 million dollar player? I don't think so. The numbers are great and he's proven he can play with great players, but he's a secondary scorer. He's not the kind of guy that can do it on his own. His numbers have been helped tremendously by who he's played with. Yes, he deserves some credit but I don't see the guy as a point per game player with Koivu and Higgins. I also don't see him even reaching 20 goals with those guys.

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02-21-2008, 10:41 AM
  #54
Slick Nick
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Okay, you switch Tanguay and Ryder's linemates over the past several years and we'd see how many goals Tanguay would have scored. And I can tell you that Ryder would be potting a lot more than 30 goals a season with Forsberg as his center.

He makes less cash, is a UFA so we could let him walk if he doesn't produce and he's heating up. Tanguay is having a bad year not playing with Iginla, makes too much cash and is more of a playmaker. Yes, I'd stick with Ryder.
I don't see a healhty Forsberg on this team... so you argument dosen't stand here.

In his last three seasons before this one Tanguay averaged more than a PPG, it's not all due to linemates and the chance factor. As for goal scoring, IMO when a player scores 25 goals and ads 50 assists you can easily say he could have scored 30 if he was a little more selfish.

Tanguay's realy fast, if you ever watched him play you'd notice how good he is to get forgetten in the neutral zone and then just explode... with a great passer like Markov, he could be a real threat in that department as well.


Last edited by Slick Nick: 02-21-2008 at 10:46 AM.
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Old
02-21-2008, 10:45 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think most people acknowledge that he's a good player. He is.

But is he a 5.5 million dollar player? I don't think so. The numbers are great and he's proven he can play with great players, but he's a secondary scorer. He's not the kind of guy that can do it on his own. His numbers have been helped tremendously by who he's played with. Yes, he deserves some credit but I don't see the guy as a point per game player with Koivu and Higgins. I also don't see him even reaching 20 goals with those guys.
Last night I started to compare stats vs $$$ from NHLPA's site.. I was about to post them but I got bored when I got the letter H and deleted my post... anyways, just go on the site and click anyone from making his kind of money .. only a few guys have better stats than him making equivalent money.

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02-21-2008, 10:45 AM
  #56
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somehow these debates always get to "I don't like your guy, my guy is better because" or "he sucks because.....".

I see it this way:

Rentals.

Hossa will cost so much it will hurt our future, questionable playoff performer, 2-3 months in a Habs jersey. No doubt an elite player at only 29yo. NO CUP.

Sundin will cost so much it will hurt our future, 2-3 months in a Habs jersey. No longer an elite player at 37yo. NO CUP.

Players who are signed.

Olli Jokinnen will cost so much it will hurt our future, 2 1/2 years in a Habs jersey. An elite player at only 29 yo. Never played in the playoffs.

Tanguay will not cost much, 1 1/2 years in a Hab jersey. Not an elite player but a player with elite speed, good at both ends of the ice and very good stick handling abilities. 28 yo with Stanley Cup Ring.

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02-21-2008, 10:47 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
I don't see a healhty Forsberg on this team... so you argument dosen't stand here.
?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
In his last three seasons before this one Tanguay averaged more than a PPG, it's not all due to linemates and the chance factor. As dor foal scoring, IMO when a player scores 25 goals and ads 50 assists you can easily say he could have scored 30 if he was a little more selfish.
He's a pass first kind of player who's always played with the best players in the league. Iginla is a premier scorer and Sakic and Forsberg were also incredible. As soon as he was removed from Iginla's line he stopped producing. And he's not a physical player either (something else we need.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
Tanguay's realy fast, if you ever watched him play you'd notice how good he is to get forgetten in the neutral zone and then just explode... with a great passer like Markov, he could be a real threat in that department as well.
He's good. I never said he wasn't. I said that he's a pass first kind of guy who isn't going to rack up the points he has in the past with us. He's also overpaid and if you think things were ugly with Ryder, imagine a guy not producing at 5.5 million.

Like I said, if we trade Ryder for him I don't think it will hurt much because Ryder hasn't produced anyway. But going into the playoffs this year I'd actually prefer Ryder as the guy is heating up and (when he actually shows up) is the finisher that we need on this club. And throwing in picks with Ryder is in my opinion, overpaying. Hossa is the guy we should be going for.

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Old
02-21-2008, 10:51 AM
  #58
Le depisteur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think most people acknowledge that he's a good player. He is.

But is he a 5.5 million dollar player? I don't think so. The numbers are great and he's proven he can play with great players, but he's a secondary scorer. He's not the kind of guy that can do it on his own. His numbers have been helped tremendously by who he's played with. Yes, he deserves some credit but I don't see the guy as a point per game player with Koivu and Higgins. I also don't see him even reaching 20 goals with those guys.
Firstly, he doesn't have a 5.5 million contract... It's rather 5.25.

Are you agree to have Hamrlik at 5.5M$? If yes, why not Tanguay at 5.25M$??? Under 5M$, I really think Tanguay is cheap... I really don't understand you...

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02-21-2008, 10:54 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJCOLLINS View Post
somehow these debates always get to "I don't like your guy, my guy is better because" or "he sucks because.....".

I see it this way:

Rentals.

Hossa will cost so much it will hurt our future, questionable playoff performer, 2-3 months in a Habs jersey. No doubt an elite player at only 29yo. NO CUP.

Sundin will cost so much it will hurt our future, 2-3 months in a Habs jersey. No longer an elite player at 37yo. NO CUP.

Players who are signed.

Olli Jokinnen will cost so much it will hurt our future, 2 1/2 years in a Habs jersey. An elite player at only 29 yo. Never played in the playoffs.

Tanguay will not cost much, 1 1/2 years in a Hab jersey. Not an elite player but a player with elite speed, good at both ends of the ice and very good stick handling abilities. 28 yo with Stanley Cup Ring.
In regards to Hossa I think you're right that he could hurt us depending on what he asks for. If its reasonable though, he'd be absolutely incredible for us. He's physical, is a good sniper and pretty much does everything you'd need. Unlike Tanguay, he's a premier scorer. From a pure hockey point of view he's easily the best choice in my opinion. But you're right that he might not be worth the cost.

Ryder, Streit and a 1st though? For sure.

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02-21-2008, 10:54 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
?

He's a pass first kind of player who's always played with the best players in the league. Iginla is a premier scorer and Sakic and Forsberg were also incredible. As soon as he was removed from Iginla's line he stopped producing.

He's good. I never said he wasn't. I said that he's a pass first kind of guy who isn't going to rack up the points he has in the past with us. He's also overpaid and if you think things were ugly with Ryder, imagine a guy not producing at 5.5 million.

Like I said, if we trade Ryder for him I don't think it will hurt much because Ryder hasn't produced anyway. But going into the playoffs this year I'd actually prefer Ryder as the guy is heating up and (when he actually shows up) is the finisher that we need on this club. And throwing in picks with Ryder is in my opinion, overpaying. Hossa is the guy we should be going for.
A non producing Tanguay as you say would still be 3rd scorer on the Habs, 26 points ahead of Ryder, 12 ahead of Higgins, 8 ahead of A. Kost and 5 ahead of Saku....

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02-21-2008, 10:54 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Firstly, he doesn't have a 5.5 million contract... It's rather 5.25.

Are you agree to have Hamrlik at 5.5M$? If yes, why not Tanguay at 5.25M$??? Under 5M$, I really think Tanguay is cheap... I really don't understand you...
I didn't like the Hammrlyk contract either to be honest with you.

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Old
02-21-2008, 10:56 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
A non producing Tanguay as you say would still be 3rd scorer on the Habs, 26 points ahead of Ryder, 12 ahead of Higgins, 8 ahead of A. Kost and 5 ahead of Saku....
You seem to believe that I think the guy sucks. I don't.

He's good and if we deal Ryder for him I'd be fine with it. But I don't think that we should give up more than Ryder for him and I've given you the reasons why.

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02-21-2008, 11:38 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
How much overrated? You say absolutely nothing...

Tanguay's average stats (595 games/8 seasons):
82 gp 24 g 49a 73 pts 42pim +20 19.37% shooting
If Tanguay is THAT good, why do the Flames already want to trade him when he hasn't even spent 2 years with the club?

Just try to understand that I don't hate the players! I just don't think it would be a good fit for us! We already have a 12 goal scorer with a bad season and he's way less expensive!

And I agree with Lafeurs Guy... If we trade for him, nothing more than Ryder.

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Old
02-21-2008, 11:46 AM
  #64
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Hmm what to do what to do lol Trade deadline is always a good fun time revolving around hockey fans mind for long stretches of time.

I gotta chime in though...

Only 4 things interest me for our play off run... UIt does nt mean all 4, and I am NOT willing to part with a lot of talent, and definately I gotta say I beieve we should limit a tonne of availability.

I am only interested in:
Tanguay
Jokinen
An enforcer
A 3/4 pairing RD to off set Hamrlik.

That's it that's all.

Hossa, Sundin and whoever else are too expensive, and create too many questions.

Olli though would be the one guy I would chase heavily though. He's Finnish (complimentary to Koivu) and IMO It would be the final learning curve for Olli to learn the final pieces to his puzzle from the greatest Finnish hero in pro hockey. \

What would be available for Olli?

Well, I would create a package, but seeing as to a top 4 center would easily be covered with Jokinen, Pleks, Koivu, and Lapierre... Chipchura and a first should be close to doing that one.

I would not give Chips for Tanguay however... as I saw mentioned earlier. Tanguay is not a center, and Chips has a conceived role alread on the team as early as next year. Smokes was the insurance in casehe wasnt... It's time for Chips already, however that contract MUST be played ou due to it's NTC attached to it.
Anybody thinking we should just screw Smokes, well is slightly incorrect, due to the fact that he is a grizzled veteran, he may not be performing amazingly... However it sends a message out to the entire league that Bob Gainey IS a man of his word.

I said it though... No Smokes, means Chips is on the roster...
Only guy worth Chips in the show IMO is Jokinen... that's it, tha's all I had to say.

Tanguay is however worth a package where the main piece heading to Calgary is Ryder. Ryder, a prospect/pick is decent... but really the impact of Tanguay wold help, just not enough to trade Chipper for, who could be a quality centerman for the next 2 decades.

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02-21-2008, 11:51 AM
  #65
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Would HAB - FLAME fans go for this proposal??

Ryder and O'Byrne for Tanguay and Warrener?

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02-21-2008, 11:52 AM
  #66
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I'd do it but no way I trade Chipchura. I think he's going to be too important in the future.

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02-21-2008, 11:53 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcadiaAxeMan View Post
Would HAB - FLAME fans go for this proposal??

Ryder and O'Byrne for Tanguay and Warrener?
I counter with Ryder + Bouillon for Warrener and a pick.

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02-21-2008, 11:56 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
A non producing Tanguay as you say would still be 3rd scorer on the Habs, 26 points ahead of Ryder, 12 ahead of Higgins, 8 ahead of A. Kost and 5 ahead of Saku....
That's soooo true

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02-21-2008, 11:56 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcadiaAxeMan View Post
Would HAB - FLAME fans go for this proposal??

Ryder and O'Byrne for Tanguay and Warrener?
I don't want to give up O'Bryne for anyone unless Olli Jokinnen is coming back.

The Habs proved a couple of weeks ago we need a #4 D to play with Hammer and O'B is that D.

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02-21-2008, 11:58 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I didn't like the Hammrlyk contract either to be honest with you.
Then, you prefer not to have Hamrlik?

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Old
02-21-2008, 12:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BigM1ke View Post
If Tanguay is THAT good, why do the Flames already want to trade him when he hasn't even spent 2 years with the club?

Just try to understand that I don't hate the players! I just don't think it would be a good fit for us! We already have a 12 goal scorer with a bad season and he's way less expensive!

And I agree with Lafeurs Guy... If we trade for him, nothing more than Ryder.
Do you understand what is the cap space??? The Flames don't have the room to keep Tanguay for next year if they want to resign Langkow and Huselius...

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02-21-2008, 12:19 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I don't trade Ryder straight up for Tanguay.
me neither...

he's a good player, but he has a stupid contract...

Is he really that good? 13 goals this season...

never scored 30 goals... ever.

I'd rather keep ryder ...

on the koivu line, we need someone who can score tons of goals.. we don't need another playmaker.... and I honestly think he's a good player, but just not what we need right now...

I'd give lats a chance to play again with koivu before I would make such a move...

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02-21-2008, 12:20 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Do you understand what is the cap space??? The Flames don't have the room to keep Tanguay for next year if they want to resign Langkow and Huselius...
then we should wait and sign huselius...

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02-21-2008, 12:37 PM
  #74
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I watched the Flames a few times this year on TSN and I would trade Ryder for Tanguay straight up, but wouldn't add much more than a 2nd to it. Tanguay is a very good hockey player but used on average lines in Calgary, he has been playing with Owen Nolan for a while, centered by Lombardi or Conroy... The linemates he would have in Montreal would definitely be better than that, and his style of play would be a good fit for the habs. But I don't think of him as an impact player, I just see him as an upgrade over Ryder. Ryder is a better goal scorer, Tanguay is a better pretty much everything else.

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02-21-2008, 12:39 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I counter with Ryder + Bouillon for Warrener and a pick.
What do you see in Warrener that makes you offer a solid top-6 defenseman and a NHL caliber goal scorer for him?????????? Gross overpayment in my opinion!

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