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Old
03-06-2014, 09:10 AM
  #1
Chukcha
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Braden Holtby

I'm worrying about Holtby, he looks like he has lost confidence forever.


Last edited by ChibiPooky: 03-06-2014 at 11:24 AM.
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03-06-2014, 09:24 AM
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g00n
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Well if this is going to be the Player Discussion/Concern thread for Holtby I'll put this here, from the recent GDT:

Holtby has lost the bedrock of his game which was his mental game and his composure. His reaction to letting in goals is completely different than what it used to be, and he is reinforcing negative emotions and attitudes about his game every time he fails, making it more likely to happen again. Progressively, subconsciously, he's going to be more likely to let in the borderline goals as well since his previously trustworthy unconscious ability will carry the seeds of potential failure planted previously.

We know Kolzig has messed with him and we don't know how much that's still affecting him. The ability to blow off a goal and rely on your ability is undermined when you are forced to think about everything you're doing and you no longer trust that merely forgetting about a bad play or outcome is enough to "reset" everything. Right now nothing is working in that regard, or at least it isn't working as consistently as it used to. This is like a golfer getting worse before getting better during a swing change.

A bad game just hours after his boss trades for a veteran goaltender is a test of Holtby's psyche, and he failed that SPECIFIC test based on the WAY HE RESPONDED, not the results on the tally sheet. That doesn't mean he flat out sucks or he played as bad as the score indicates. We know he can do better because we've seen it, even under pressure and in the playoffs.

Holtby is a good goalie with serious issues at the moment. He is at a crossroads in his career, in my opinion, and he can either rise to the occasion and block out the distractions or he can crumble and watch his career sink.

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03-06-2014, 09:29 AM
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The most irritating thing is that he smiles all the time, even when he let in 5-6 goal per game. I don't know what to think about him and his future. Now time for Halak.

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03-06-2014, 09:35 AM
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Wasn't Steve Mason the next Jim Carey?

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03-06-2014, 09:37 AM
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Doesn't Holtby (or anyone) have to win a Vezina before becoming Jim Carey?

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03-06-2014, 10:05 AM
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Bit too early to say based on few months ehh?

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03-06-2014, 10:12 AM
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Lost his confidence, no way.

What he lost was proper coaching, support from his defensemen, and forwards. Coaching tried to change him to fit the "let them come in" open door system. Double U T F

The biggest problem I have with him is his supposed strength, puck handling.

If he were in a healthy environment ft. a vet backup, so he is not worried about a 3 headed goalie competition, I think he would be playing better.

The situation for our goalies is about THE worst they could possibly be this year. Seriously. We rolled with 3 young Gs at one point. Who else does this?


Last edited by RandyHolt: 03-06-2014 at 10:26 AM.
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03-06-2014, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00n View Post
Well if this is going to be the Player Discussion/Concern thread for Holtby I'll put this here, from the recent GDT:

Holtby has lost the bedrock of his game which was his mental game and his composure. His reaction to letting in goals is completely different than what it used to be, and he is reinforcing negative emotions and attitudes about his game every time he fails, making it more likely to happen again. Progressively, subconsciously, he's going to be more likely to let in the borderline goals as well since his previously trustworthy unconscious ability will carry the seeds of potential failure planted previously.

We know Kolzig has messed with him and we don't know how much that's still affecting him. The ability to blow off a goal and rely on your ability is undermined when you are forced to think about everything you're doing and you no longer trust that merely forgetting about a bad play or outcome is enough to "reset" everything. Right now nothing is working in that regard, or at least it isn't working as consistently as it used to. This is like a golfer getting worse before getting better during a swing change.

A bad game just hours after his boss trades for a veteran goaltender is a test of Holtby's psyche, and he failed that SPECIFIC test based on the WAY HE RESPONDED, not the results on the tally sheet. That doesn't mean he flat out sucks or he played as bad as the score indicates. We know he can do better because we've seen it, even under pressure and in the playoffs.

Holtby is a good goalie with serious issues at the moment. He is at a crossroads in his career, in my opinion, and he can either rise to the occasion and block out the distractions or he can crumble and watch his career sink.
I 100% agree. I think what Kolzig described doing made no sense. Holtby appeared to have great mental toughness in his first year, and that's been eroded.

Yes, Holtby needed to be less aggressive and more economical in his movements, but playing deeper in his net doesn't seem to match his athleticism at all. Seemed to me, a few tweaks were needed, not a full overhaul.

And when you read Kolzig's comments, they obviously thought he'd adjust faster. He hasn't. So at some point, don't you re-evaluate the idea?

Holtby has gone from being a promiseg young tender to a real potential bust. Knowing what we know about the coaching, a lot of that is on them.

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03-06-2014, 10:21 AM
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From 2 months ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...nfidence-back/

Quote:
Confidence “always takes a hit if things aren’t going well. I don’t think it’s at a low by any means, I still believe in myself. But throughout the game you start — you’re not fielding many shots,” Holtby said. “A play like that comes and I don’t get over far enough on the angle. Overthink it, think he’s going back again with the pass and he beats me short side. It’s just those things that I need to have the confidence in myself that I can square up to him and I still have the ability to get back if he passes.”

This is BH's mind and body fighting Kolzig's instructions. Right down to the letter.

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03-06-2014, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
Doesn't Holtby (or anyone) have to win a Vezina before becoming Jim Carey?
yes, of course.....and speaking as someone that has liked his game, people acting like he was some star player coming into this season are off the mark. Coming into this season he was a young goalie that has shown good things but had/has lots to prove...like how does he respond to adversity and the ups/downs of a long season...then be at the top of his game in the spring

too many think he had answered all these questions....I think none were answered

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03-06-2014, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00n View Post
From 2 months ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...nfidence-back/




This is BH's mind and body fighting Kolzig's instructions. Right down to the letter.
Indeed.

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03-06-2014, 10:31 AM
  #12
Mothra
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Im sorry but if Holtby folds because of coaching adjustments its not ALL on the coach....how mentally tough is he then? He needs to stop the puck more...end of story

all goalies will likely have coaches trying to adjust their game....and all goalies will have to go through the ups/downs that come with the position. This is really the first real bump in his very short career and to me, he hasnt responded well.

I realize in this world of HF you either LOVE or HATE a player, very little in between for some. Thats not me..I like him but he seriously needs to pick it up

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03-06-2014, 10:31 AM
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RandyHolt
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Basics.

The goalie has to play the shooter.

It's mind boggling that Oates thinks there are enough tiny twig Oates in the league to warrant over playing the pass when setting angles. I can see 3 young goalies, one a mess, yeah maybe try and mold the loser into something that has no real chance of ever working. Don't do it to the entire farm system, and with no vet G in hand to bail them out.

Goalies play the pass using lateral movements, and quickness. If we had a lard ass goalie that cannot move side to side, yeah, make tubby cheat a little. We don't have one.

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03-06-2014, 10:34 AM
  #14
Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00n View Post
From 2 months ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...nfidence-back/




This is BH's mind and body fighting Kolzig's instructions. Right down to the letter.
If Kolzig instructions have sunk his career....he didnt have much of one in store then. You cant be that fragile and expect to play start in net 60+ games a season

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03-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
If Kolzig instructions have sunk his career....he didnt have much of one in store then. You cant be that fragile and expect to play start in net 60+ games a season
So if you don't respond well to bad coaching, you don't have much of a career in store? That's silly.

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03-06-2014, 10:41 AM
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No where in there does Braden imply he is fragile.

It's more like he was mentally overloaded, doing things he knew will not work, as his coach decided to use him as a guinea pig to reinvent goaltending, because they feel the league is playing an east west game.

That is Oates thinking everyone is looking to pass, like he did. They are not.

It's borderline insane to keep doing something that will not work and not push back. He sucked it up, we sucked, and he finally pushed back.

Holtby would never have made it this far if he was fragile.

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03-06-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
So if you don't respond well to bad coaching, you don't have much of a career in store? That's silly.
yes, thats exactly what I said...to that extreme too.

In any case...this isnt not responding well, this is more like folding. Point to "bad coaching" all you want. I dont know if its bad coaching or not, seems like you are certain though. The bigger issue is a coached tried to, well, coach....and you are saying (or seems like it) that is the sole reason his game fell apart. If so, thats pretty fragile....which is not a good sign for a position that is about as mental as any in sport

To use your tactics I guess that anytime a player isnt getting it done its all on the coach?

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03-06-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
yes, thats exactly what I said...to that extreme too.

In any case...this isnt not responding well, this is more like folding. Point to "bad coaching" all you want. I dont know if its bad coaching or not, seems like you are certain though. The bigger issue is a coached tried to, well, coach....and you are saying (or seems like it) that is the sole reason his game fell apart. If so, thats pretty fragile....which is not a good sign for a position that is about as mental as any in sport

To use your tactics I guess that anytime a player isnt getting it done its all on the coach?
This makes no sense.

He had a style of play that he was very good at. It needed a bit of smoothing but was overall highly successful.

They made him change to something that he isn't good at. He's struggled terribly trying to do it, and it has affected his confidence. That's Human Nature 101.

Anyone would lose confidence when asked to repeatedly sacrifice their strengths in pursuit of a strategy they aren't successful at.

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03-06-2014, 11:13 AM
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yes, thats exactly what I said...to that extreme too.

In any case...this isnt not responding well, this is more like folding. Point to "bad coaching" all you want. I dont know if its bad coaching or not, seems like you are certain though. The bigger issue is a coached tried to, well, coach....and you are saying (or seems like it) that is the sole reason his game fell apart. If so, thats pretty fragile....which is not a good sign for a position that is about as mental as any in sport

To use your tactics I guess that anytime a player isnt getting it done its all on the coach?
It's basically exactly what you said, yes.

There's plenty of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that indicates the downturn in play was due to the coaches ****ing with his style. His performances and numbers to a nose dive right around when the article in question came out.

When there's smoke, there's fire.

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03-06-2014, 11:14 AM
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When there's smoke, there's fire.
In this case...


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03-06-2014, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
yes, thats exactly what I said...to that extreme too.

In any case...this isnt not responding well, this is more like folding. Point to "bad coaching" all you want. I dont know if its bad coaching or not, seems like you are certain though. The bigger issue is a coached tried to, well, coach....and you are saying (or seems like it) that is the sole reason his game fell apart. If so, thats pretty fragile....which is not a good sign for a position that is about as mental as any in sport

To use your tactics I guess that anytime a player isnt getting it done its all on the coach?


Let's say you're a right handed shot, and the coach gives you a left handed stick. Are you going to play the same? You could probably learn to play the other way but it would take time and you would not be automatic or even competent at first. You would have to think your way through almost every movement and would be little better than a beginner playing his correct side.

That's an extreme example but that's what happens when you make adjustments that require conscious thought be applied to previously automatic movements. Any professional athlete, sports psychologist or neuroscientist studying conscious/unconscious activity in the brain will tell you this is his how it works.

It appears bold and practical to say "if he can't take coaching he isn't very good" but that's an oversimplification and not at all accurate. Not all adjustments are the same. And as I said before, the conflicts internally and externally have Holtby tied in knots when before all he had to do was show up and play.

Instead of recognize this poisoning of the well the Caps management moved out one guy and brought in another, which in Holtby's compromised state is probably ****ing with his head pretty hard.

He DOES need to recognize what's going on and either work harder at incorporating Kolzig's changes (which I think are wrong) so they become more automatic, or he needs to get control of his mental state and begin positive rehearsal and reinforcement in addition to recapturing his previous style and swagger. In practice first, then games.

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03-06-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by californiacapsfan View Post
This makes no sense.

He had a style of play that he was very good at. It needed a bit of smoothing but was overall highly successful.

They made him change to something that he isn't good at. He's struggled terribly trying to do it, and it has affected his confidence. That's Human Nature 101.

Anyone would lose confidence when asked to repeatedly sacrifice their strengths in pursuit of a strategy they aren't successful at.
Starting NHL goalies need a better level of confidence that you or me...its not like they asked him to play left handed....they are looking for goalies to play a little deeper. IM not saying I agree with that but I certainly am not going "well...that explains all the inconsistent play" and fully excuse the guy who is actually in net and supposed to be stopping the puck

just two simple questions...

Is Hotlby responsible for his play?
Should he be playing better?

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03-06-2014, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
Starting NHL goalies need a better level of confidence that you or me...its not like they asked him to play left handed....they are looking for goalies to play a little deeper. IM not saying I agree with that but I certainly am not going "well...that explains all the inconsistent play" and fully excuse the guy who is actually in net and supposed to be stopping the puck

just two simple questions...

Is Hotlby responsible for his play?
Should he be playing better?
Would you expect Ovechkin to score 60 under Hunter for a year?

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03-06-2014, 11:21 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
Starting NHL goalies need a better level of confidence that you or me...its not like they asked him to play left handed....they are looking for goalies to play a little deeper. IM not saying I agree with that but I certainly am not going "well...that explains all the inconsistent play" and fully excuse the guy who is actually in net and supposed to be stopping the puck

just two simple questions...

Is Hotlby responsible for his play?
Should he be playing better?
Do you play a sport?

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03-06-2014, 11:23 AM
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Once again, this coaching staff is overthinking something simple. Goaltending has always been "square up, set your angle and depth to the shooter." That's the way to stop the puck carrier from just shooting it directly into the net.

Basically, what I read of these adjustments, is that they're designed to open holes for the shooter in order to take away the pass.

IMO, it's not that he's having trouble incorporating the adjustments. The adjustments are just bad and make him a worse goalie.

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