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Koivu - I got to thinking

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Old
02-25-2008, 03:14 PM
  #1
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Koivu - I got to thinking

Going into the season his mates were Ryder and Higgins.

Both of these guys have underperformed considerably and yet Koivu has still managed to get a decent amount of points. Makes me wonder why he gets so much grief. I'm guessing no one would be lamenting his season if was with Kovy and Kosty Sr.

Not sure what wrong with Higgins but I'm pretty sure Koivu is not the problem.

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02-25-2008, 03:16 PM
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Koivu's production is fine for what his role on the team has now become: a #2 Centerman.

I think expectations we're very high seeing as how he came off a career year with 75pts. Ryder slumping and Higgins hot/cold nature have been holding his production back a bit.

I'm pretty happy with his play for the most part.

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02-25-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Better With Age View Post
Going into the season his mates were Ryder and Higgins.

Both of these guys have underperformed considerably and yet Koivu has still managed to get a decent amount of points. Makes me wonder why he gets so much grief. I'm guessing no one would be lamenting his season if was with Kovy and Kosty Sr.

Not sure what wrong with Higgins but I'm pretty sure Koivu is not the problem.
Koivu has been blamed for everything and credited for nothing his whole career. This shouldn't be a surprise to you.

And 90% of the flak Koivu gets here has NOTHING to do with hockey. They'll say it does, but the underlying feelings behind it do not.

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02-25-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Better With Age View Post
Going into the season his mates were Ryder and Higgins.

Both of these guys have underperformed considerably and yet Koivu has still managed to get a decent amount of points. Makes me wonder why he gets so much grief. I'm guessing no one would be lamenting his season if was with Kovy and Kosty Sr.

Not sure what wrong with Higgins but I'm pretty sure Koivu is not the problem.
I agree. If we ever get a stud to play with Koivu, everyone will see.

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02-25-2008, 03:18 PM
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True but Koivu has also played with almost everyone on the Habs and hasn't been very productive.

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02-25-2008, 03:20 PM
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But if we start thinking of Koivu as the leagues top 3rd center then we got a winner again.

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02-25-2008, 03:21 PM
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But if we start thinking of Koivu as the leagues top 3rd center then we got a winner again.
i'll think of him as that when he's not making 4.75 M

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02-25-2008, 03:23 PM
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If you want to go by stats which seems to be the criteria for most, Koivu is about 30th in league scoring for centers, which makes him either the worst 1st line center or the best 2nd line center... And that's when he's saddled with guys who can't seem to produce.

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02-25-2008, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
True but Koivu has also played with almost everyone and hasn't been very productive.
People expect Koivu to have #1 center numbers but none of the guys he's played with are 1st liners...especially guys like Dandenault or Kotsopoulos.

I think Ryder or Latendresse should move back to Koivu's line, it's obvious they need a finish on that line. Right now they have 2 playmakers plus Higgins(who has some touch around the net but is currently slumping).

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02-25-2008, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Koivu has been blamed for everything and credited for nothing his whole career. This shouldn't be a surprise to you.

And 90% of the flak Koivu gets here has NOTHING to do with hockey. They'll say it does, but the underlying feelings behind it do not.
What should he be credited for exactly..?..im just curious..
He's been our only good player for so many years, but we haven't accomplished anything.

His new role of 2nd line center is directly linked to his performance this year. We can blame his linemates as well if we want, still won't change the fact that he lost the #1 center spot.

Getting an impact winger will probably make him earn that #1 spot back.

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02-25-2008, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
True but Koivu has also played with almost everyone on the Habs and hasn't been very productive.
0.82 PPG throughout is career considering injuries and playing with Dackell and Poulin qualify as being quite productive in my opinions

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02-25-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What should he be credited for exactly..?..im just curious..
He's been our only good player for so many years, but we haven't accomplished anything.

His new role of 2nd line center is directly linked to his performance this year. We can blame his linemates as well if we want, still won't change the fact that he lost the #1 center spot.

Getting an impact winger will probably make him earn that #1 spot back.
We can blame bad drafting and trades in the 90's for lack of a good supporting cast

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02-25-2008, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What should he be credited for exactly..?..im just curious..
He's been our only good player for so many years, but we haven't accomplished anything.

His new role of 2nd line center is directly linked to his performance this year. We can blame his linemates as well if we want, still won't change the fact that he lost the #1 center spot.

Getting an impact winger will probably make him earn that #1 spot back.
You can't really say he's lost the #1 role as much as the Plekanec line has had a better year. Plekanec and Kovy played together and were nowhere near as productive.

I find Koivu has been hindered by Ryder's struggles plus Higgins has been very streaky. S.Kostitsyn is not ready to be a top 6 forward.

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02-25-2008, 03:32 PM
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I like Koivu and agree that overall, he hasnt been all that bad this year.

However, it's the centerman that usually makes his wingers and not the other way around.

Koivu had a good start and have recently picked it up. But no one can deny he actually had quite a slump this year. A period of time in which his play was very very poor which most certainly didnt help Higgins (more so than ryder)

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02-25-2008, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
i'll think of him as that when he's not making 4.75 M
Koivu is certainly not overpaid.He's earned it,and it's a relatively decent contract.It's a bargain,easily.


I don't understand why exactly Koivu is perceived as a undesirable asset.Some people want to get rid of him at any cost,it's not even funny, for reasons at times non-related to hockey.

You just don't realize how Koivu is important to this team.Once he's gone,you'll see.Those armchair Gms who want to trade him for any irrelevant reason make me laugh so bad.

Ridiculous.

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02-25-2008, 03:39 PM
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0.82 PPG throughout is career considering injuries and playing with Dackell and Poulin qualify as being quite productive in my opinions
I meant this year. I know Koivu can be productive, just look at him when he plays on the Finnish national team. But again I think he is more a product of his wingers. He seems to need the right fit with his wingers more than other #1 centers.

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02-25-2008, 04:03 PM
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You can't really say he's lost the #1 role as much as the Plekanec line has had a better year. Plekanec and Kovy played together and were nowhere near as productive.

I find Koivu has been hindered by Ryder's struggles plus Higgins has been very streaky. S.Kostitsyn is not ready to be a top 6 forward.
Of course i can say he lost the #1 spot. He isnt on the top line anymore, blame it on anything you want.
Whatever happened with Plek and Kovy last year is irrelevant because we're talking about this year, at the present. Not last year not next year either.
As off today, Koivu is not our 1st line center. Nobody can deny that.
We can blame his linemates too, but still doesnt change that simple fact.

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02-25-2008, 04:10 PM
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If we get Hossa...and we can sign him after that...I guarantee Koivu will put new career high numbers.

You can quote me on that one and take it to the bank too...

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02-25-2008, 04:18 PM
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I think we will see in playoffs time what hes made of ... again.

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02-25-2008, 04:20 PM
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Ryder has played with Kopivu about 50% to even less this season so he isn't the issue with Saku and his point prodcution this year.

Higgins has played a good majority of his time on that line at least 85%.

The thing is though Saku is suppose to be a superstar and elivate players games, he hasn't done that with his own or his linemates this year.

Koivu would be the first to tell you it isn't his linemates fault.

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02-25-2008, 04:21 PM
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I have to admit the linemate argument is a good one. Even a guy like Thornton, who's posted the highest assist totals since Lemieux and got 92 points in 58 games hasn't had as good a season statistically because his linemates are doing squat this year. Had Ryder and Higgins played like they could, he'd be on pace for his usual 70 points or so.

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02-25-2008, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin Kautsitsin View Post
I have to admit the linemate argument is a good one. Even a guy like Thornton, who's posted the highest assist totals since Lemieux and got 92 points in 58 games hasn't had as good a season statistically because his linemates are doing squat this year. Had Ryder and Higgins played like they could, he'd be on pace for his usual 70 points or so.
I think everyone here has to realize that Ryder hasn't been on that line too much this season and that the blame if your placing it on linemates is to Higgins, Kosty Jr., Latendresse, Kostopolous, Dandy, Streit and even Smoke....is almost every Hab on the team except for the topline in Kovalev, Kosty Sr. and Plekanec resposible for Saku's off season?

That is an easy way out to say he is on the decline and it isn't his own game that is hurting his stats.

As for the Thornton arguement I think you are wrong. Sure he isn't going to be a Art Ross winner thus year, but at 71 points and on pace for 90+ he is still playing his game even though the next highest player on the team has 42 points! Bad example to base your arguement on holding a players production back.

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02-25-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
I think everyone here has to realize that Ryder hasn't been on that line too much this season and that the blame if your placing it on linemates is to Higgins, Kosty Jr., Latendresse, Kostopolous, Dandy, Streit and even Smoke....is almost every Hab on the team except for the topline in Kovalev, Kosty Sr. and Plekanec resposible for Saku's off season?

That is an easy way out to say he is on the decline and it isn't his own game that is hurting his stats.
I don't think he's playing any different than he did last year or the year before, but hey, I'm sure most centers in the league are dying to play with some of the teammates you listed. Besides, Ryder playing 20-25 completely useless games on that line is enough to significantly affect a players production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
As for the Thornton arguement I think you are wrong. Sure he isn't going to be a Art Ross winner thus year, but at 71 points and on pace for 90+ he is still playing his game even though the next highest player on the team has 42 points! Bad example to base your arguement on holding a players production back.
He's been a 110point player since the lockout and is once again carrying his team. His linemates are doing jack**** though and if they did, he'd be well on his way to another 90 assist 110 point season. So no, not a bad example is it shows even the very best players can be affected.

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02-25-2008, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
True but Koivu has also played with almost everyone on the Habs and hasn't been very productive.

Let's just say moderately productive.

As for almost everyone on the Habs, let me make an analogy. it's like a perpetual poker game in which you seldom draw a face card, and if you do it's a jack or once in a blue moon a queen, and once in two years a king, but never, never, an ace. Who has been Koivu's ace?

The Habs just don't appear among the scoring leaders because of mediocre drafting, almost nonexistent trading, frustrating negotiatons with UFAs. Why do I say mediocre drafting when everyone raves about the Habs' young players since Trevor Timmins arrived? Look at the Hamilton roster. It's already been stripped almost bare of potential NHL talent, and none of the Bulldogs is a future top 6 forward or top 4 Dman. Who's left to call up? Based on his games with the Habs, Chipchura doesn't really excite me. Yes, he'll make the Habs next year, but he's a depth player. There are some better prospects a couple of years away from the NHL, but there isn't an outstanding center among them.

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02-25-2008, 04:47 PM
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Shooting percentage of our top 4 wingers:

Kovalev --> 17.0
A.Kost ----->16.2
Ryder -----> 10.7
Higgins ---> 10.0

Granted that the Plekanec's line plays better in the offensive zone, which prolly gives them more quality shots, but still, Koivu's winger didn't put the puck in the net this year. Other fact is that the Plek's line usually plays more often during the powerplays and are more often paired with Markov-Streit while Koivu's line is usually with Hamrlik-Brisebois/S.Kost (This is from what I recall, I have no stats to prove it, so take it for what it's worth as you, like me, have watched most of the games this year)

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