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Old
02-26-2008, 11:11 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I don't get your fascination with Mike Johnson and Radek Dvorak as a replacement for Penner.

Dvorak has 7 points and is -4...Johnson in 21 games had all of 3 points and was also -4 which projects to 12 points and -16 over a full season.

How exactly do they replace Penner's production of 18 goals and 18 assists and -5?

?
Production?

Don't kid yourself. Someone as unlikely as Kyle Brodziak could likely match Penners production given the same opportunities.

In fact Brodziak matches Penners 19ES pts on the year and does this with far less minutes and with lesser linemates! Brodziak produces 5on 5 at teh rate of 1.9pts/60mins while Penner has slumped all the way to 1.35pts/60mins which are poor numbers by any right(Marty Reasoner territory) and horrible for a first line.
I doubt you could find anybody in the league thats played this many first line minutes with this deplorable a rate of production.

Without any PP pts Penner is a production dud.

Not hard at all to replace his points.

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02-26-2008, 11:14 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Production?

Don't kid yourself. Someone as unlikely as Kyle Brodziak could likely match Penners production given the same opportunities.

In fact Brodziak matches Penners 19ES pts on the year and does this with far less minutes and with lesser linemates! Brodziak produces 5on 5 at teh rate of 1.9pts/60mins while Penner has slumped all the way to 1.35pts/60mins which are poor numbers by any right(Marty Reasoner territory) and horrible for a first line.
I doubt you could find anybody in the league thats played this many first line minutes with this deplorable a rate of production.

Without any PP pts Penner is a production dud.

Not hard at all to replace his points.
I was not holding up Penner as a paragon...merely responding to an obsession with Dvorak and Johnson.

You win the Penner bet okay...I surrender!

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02-26-2008, 11:15 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Production?

Don't kid yourself. Someone as unlikely as Kyle Brodziak could likely match Penners production given the same opportunities.

In fact Brodziak matches Penners 19ES pts on the year and does this with far less minutes and with lesser linemates! Brodziak produces 5on 5 at teh rate of 1.9pts/60mins while Penner has slumped all the way to 1.35pts/60mins which are poor numbers by any right(Marty Reasoner territory) and horrible for a first line.
I doubt you could find anybody in the league thats played this many first line minutes with this deplorable a rate of production.

Without any PP pts Penner is a production dud.

Not hard at all to replace his points.
PP points are what add the MOST VALUE TO EVERY LARGE CONTRACT IN THE NHL. Get over it. A ceaseless obsession with EV points is stupid because special teams own this league.

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02-26-2008, 11:17 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I was not holding up Penner as a paragon...merely responding to an obsession with Dvorak and Johnson.

You win the Penner bet okay...I surrender!
Yeah I don't know about Dvorak and Johnson particularly as both look snakebit but other than that DB's premise that Penner and Souray haven't made this a better club in anyway is bang on.

10M/ poorly spend as I've said all along and undeniably the worst contracts on the club.

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02-26-2008, 11:19 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
PP points are what add the MOST VALUE TO EVERY LARGE CONTRACT IN THE NHL. Get over it. A ceaseless obsession with EV points is stupid because special teams own this league.
Good players can produce at EV get over it.

This reads like a who's who of gauging player worth:

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?fetc...iewName=points


You can never go too wrong evaluating talent on ES results.


Last edited by Replacement: 02-26-2008 at 11:28 PM.
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02-26-2008, 11:21 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Good day for Lowe.
No need in trading from a position of weakness.
I expect a very busy off season for Lowe.
Lowe generally does his best work when he doesn't do anything.

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02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Yeah I don't know about Dvorak and Johnson particularly as both look snakebit but other than that DB's premise that Penner and Souray haven't made this a better club in anyway is bang on.

10M/ poorly spend as I've said all along and undeniably the worst contracts on the club.
Dvorak and Johnson would be cheaper and well...cheaper.

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02-26-2008, 11:38 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Good players can produce at EV get over it.

This reads like a who's who of gauging player worth:

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?fetc...iewName=points


You can never go too wrong evaluating talent on ES results.
Of course not. That's why Radulov obviously = Joe Thornton.

You can go wrong.

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02-26-2008, 11:42 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
Of course not. That's why Radulov obviously = Joe Thornton.

You can go wrong.


Yeah clearly thats all that I meant.

You can't back your ridiculous premise above.

Myself I'd take Radulov over Penner

ES Isn't the ONLY analysis but its an important one in value determination and player worth and don't kid yourself.

ps because i can play as well use your own PP determinant and Mike Knuble= Thornton and Ovech and Sergei Gonchar is the most valued player in the league.

you can go wrong


Last edited by Replacement: 02-26-2008 at 11:57 PM.
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02-27-2008, 12:09 AM
  #185
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Penner won a battle for the puck using his size with 30 seconds left in the game that caused the Pisani goal.

I'm not sure if that gets recorded at behindthenet..

Dvo/Mike Johnson = Leaf 8th place mentality

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02-27-2008, 12:14 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
Penner won a battle for the puck using his size with 30 seconds left in the game that caused the Pisani goal.

I'm not sure if that gets recorded at behindthenet..
Dvo/Mike Johnson = Leaf 8th place mentality[/QUOTE]

Actually, it's contender mindset. The list of Stanley Cup champions is a list full of players of this ilk in the bottom 6. Hell, the Oilers own playoff run was a prime example of what quality veterans can do.

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02-27-2008, 12:19 AM
  #187
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Anyone else surprised Peca wasn't dealt? He has signed a 1y contract right? Lots of teams with bad PK (in the East especially) could have used him I think...

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02-27-2008, 12:21 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I don't get your fascination with Mike Johnson and Radek Dvorak as a replacement for Penner.

Dvorak has 7 points and is -4...Johnson in 21 games had all of 3 points and was also -4 which projects to 12 points and -16 over a full season.

How exactly do they replace Penner's production of 18 goals and 18 assists and -5?
Because you don't need Dvorak and Johnson to replace Penner's offence. You replace that with the younger guys by giving them the extra PP time and maybe giving Horcoff-Hemsky-Gagner/Nilsson extra shifts against the oppositions weaker lines. You can afford to do this because you have quality veterans who can go out there and check the other teams better players.

Or you can put a Dvorak/Johnson on the Horcoff-Hemsky line and go PvsP. Anyone playing with those two are going to get their chances, while at the same time they'll also be a tough matchup for other teams.

Quote:
I'd also be interested to know which post-cap team you are using as a model for 2.5 million dollar contracts for third line players?
Anaheim works.

Carolina too.

Is that enough, or do you need more than the only 2 cup winners in the post lockout era?

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02-27-2008, 12:26 AM
  #189
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The Pacific is just nuts. Dallas and San Jose both got way better, and the Ducks are a powerhouse again since Selanne and Nieds have come back. Those 3 teams and the Wings are the class of the league imo.

I liked the moves the caps made. Huet will really help them, and Federov might make a decent 2nd liner to play with Semin.

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02-27-2008, 12:37 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Dvo/Mike Johnson = Leaf 8th place mentality
Actually, it's contender mindset. The list of Stanley Cup champions is a list full of players of this ilk in the bottom 6. Hell, the Oilers own playoff run was a prime example of what quality veterans can do.[/QUOTE]

Signing Mike Johnson = marrying your first gf because you're afraid you might not find better.

Signing Mike Johnson = turning down a job that would pay you 20k in the first 2 years and 200k after 2 years experience and keeping your old job that pays you 50k because you have bills to pay.

The Mike Johnson's of the world are nothing but stopgaps that ensure that you won't finish in the lottery but they also do nothing to ensure you better than 8th place.

Once you have a few impact players is when you should look to bring in some veterans like Dvo to fill your lineup. Picking up veteren experience before you have players who can carry the mail doesn't make much sense to me.

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02-27-2008, 12:44 AM
  #191
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I would agree that obtaining and maintaining the services of quality veterans is what contenders do, but I think one could make the argument that Mike Johnson and Radek Dvorak may not belong in that category any longer. Neither guy looks to be getting better with age.

It didn't seem like the contenders of the NHL landscape were chomping at the bit to sign either 'quality veteran' during UFA season, for whatever reason.

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02-27-2008, 09:38 AM
  #192
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heh.. dvorak and mike johnson?!.. why.. as if 1 sanderson isn't enough you want 2 more?..

you only have some sort of needs for those type of players if A) they are cheap AND B) you need veteran 4th liners to go with a CUP CONTENDING TEAM..

the oilers have 0 use of them..

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