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Old
02-27-2008, 12:07 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
So if Carter wants 4-4.5 mill, you want to keep him to be the 3rd line center ????????????? Makes no sense to me in a cap world
First of all, he still has the ability to become our 1st line center. Yes, Richards is curreently the better player .. but Carter has closed the gap since Christmas, and still has a higher overall ceiling.

We are no longer a team with very mch size at all, especially if/when Hatch & Smith are gone. Moving Carter will only exaggerate that issue.

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Old
02-27-2008, 12:45 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by 27roenick97 View Post
1) they're never healthy b/c of all the **** they give and take on the ice. if lasse kukkonen was dressed for the majority of the games, he would be the human bruise, like smith is now, which mitigates his effectiveness.
Not because of what they do now-Hatcher's knees, Smith's back. Their time is over. Their prime has past.

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2) us not being able to exit the zone isn't predicated on smith and hatcher only. hatcher and smith are critical clogs on our PK.
Clogs is right. If they were effective it would be better and it is their veteran leadership style inabilty to clear a puck that helps the other teams stay in the zone and keep firing away, often skating around them without being touched. It is also their immobility that allows the teams in the zone with ease. Or is that part of what they "teach" the young guys-give up the zone and screen the goalie?

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3) yeah, no arguement there. why we should part w/ smith and let hatcher retire at the end of his contract. no way we should sign smith to a two year contract...
But he's so effective and important?

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4) is it coincidence that we went on a ten game loosing streak when hatch got hurt? hatcher is, far and away, the best leader on this team. i say this b/c the team apparently responds to him better than anybody else. leadership wasn't a problem last year; we could've brought mark messier in his prime to the team, and we'd've still sucked (i know, blasphemous to talk of messier, but he was the best captain of the last three decades).
Yes. The team was struggling and on a roller coaster for quite a while, like all season. Is it coincidence that Coburn looks much better when not tied to a stone?

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5) the playoffs are a whole different ball-game. you need warriors like these guys on your team.
We don't need broke down once were's.

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Originally Posted by 27roenick97 View Post
6) goat isn't nearly the defender these two are. yeah, he would be an ideal sixth man, but hatch or smith are better and offer more intangibles.
He is at least the defender they are. He is not the defender they once were, but neither are they and the game opened up.

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have you seen smith and hatcher hit people? those two are monsters if they're feeling good that night. people die, just ask lupul...
Yeah, I saw Lupul get creamed. Who else has Hatch taken out? Nobody. They just skate away or duck, just like the guy hatch was going for when he hit his own, more valuable team mate. They do not hit the way they used to and nowhere near the way Goat does.

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don't begin to blame what happened in 05-06 on hatcher. we lost one of the better captains in the history of the team to a concussion and hatcher-a F/A acquisition that season, new to the team-was given the C b/c gagne, who was the ranking player on the team, deferred. hitchcock wanted somebody who he was comfortable w/given the C and he had a history w/ hatch. that season doesn't even begin to show what a quality leader hatcher is. look at the stars teams he was a part of...
Don't tell me what to do, and I didn't. I blamed his poor leadership on them being even worse than they should have been. Interestingly Hatcher captained both teams that have mutineed Hitch. Weird, huh? And after he took over for Primeau they began to slide downward, culminating in a horrible 1st round loss that was abated somewhat by Forsberg dominating in two of those games. Hatch was a non-factor at best and part of the problem at worst.

You look at the Stars team he was a part of. That was very good team and he was a much better player then. It's not as though he was playing with scraps and has beens taking a team to game 7 of the ECF. That was a high quality group.

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we need to keep hatcher for next year, provided he doesn't retire. if he does, we need to resign smith for another year.
The last thing we "need" is Hatcher or Smith. They need some real leadership and real defensmen who can actually play the game still.

It's all a matter of opinion. That's mine until proven otherwise, but the issues are somewhat abstract so I doubt either of us could convince the other.

No hard feelings.

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Old
02-27-2008, 01:03 PM
  #103
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They would be the most undersized line in the NHL but quick ********.
It wouldnt be much smaller than Pominville and Hecht. Hecht is about the same size as Gagne, only a little more physical and Pominville may have an inch or two and 10-15 pounds if that on Giroux. Giroux looked like he knows how to avoid the big hits though, at least in that little we saw of him.

If Briere and Giroux click, you always have the option of moving Gagne down with Carter and Umberger back up there though, since Gagne/Carter/Upshall played pretty well last year.

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Old
02-27-2008, 01:20 PM
  #104
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First of all, he still has the ability to become our 1st line center. Yes, Richards is curreently the better player .. but Carter has closed the gap since Christmas, and still has a higher overall ceiling.

We are no longer a team with very mch size at all, especially if/when Hatch & Smith are gone. Moving Carter will only exaggerate that issue.
Carter plays about as physical as Briere, so his size is a moot issue IMO. If they can move Briere to wing, we could keep Carter, but if the plan is too keep him at center, I think the $$ is better spent on defense.

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02-27-2008, 01:29 PM
  #105
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I hope they don't entertain the idea of moving JVR or Giroux, but if I had to pick it would be Giroux.

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02-27-2008, 01:44 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
Not because of what they do now-Hatcher's knees, Smith's back. Their time is over. Their prime has past.
No ****. But being past one's prime doesn't necessarily equate to worthlessness. Both are much better positionally than Goat will ever be.
Quote:

Clogs is right. If they were effective it would be better and it is their veteran leadership style inabilty to clear a puck that helps the other teams stay in the zone and keep firing away, often skating around them without being touched. It is also their immobility that allows the teams in the zone with ease. Or is that part of what they "teach" the young guys-give up the zone and screen the goalie?
Goat isn't any better at clearing pucks. But to say that Hatcher doesn't have a positive effect on the rest of the team is willfully ignorant. Even the most ardent Hatch detractors at least recognize this.

Quote:
Yes. The team was struggling and on a roller coaster for quite a while, like all season. Is it coincidence that Coburn looks much better when not tied to a stone?
Coburn - Hatcher has been a solid pairing all year. You can torture statistics all you want but you will still not be able to make them disprove that fact. However, Kimmo needs a partner that he works well with. We may have to pair Coburn with him because of that. However, splitting are best two d-men isn't ideal, imo. The simple fact is that this team plays better with Hatcher in the lineup. Hatcher has helped this team win more games than he has lost.

Quote:
We don't need broke down once were's.
Yes, we do. Without Smith and Hatcher in the lineup we don't have a prayer come playoff time and are chances aren't as amazing as we'd like anyway.

Quote:
Yeah, I saw Lupul get creamed. Who else has Hatch taken out? Nobody. They just skate away or duck, just like the guy hatch was going for when he hit his own, more valuable team mate. They do not hit the way they used to and nowhere near the way Goat does.
Hatcher bit a mother****er. Both Hatcher and Smith are generally cheating as much as possible. And I don't mean cheating in the positional sense. I mean cheating as in breaking every code of conduct that has ever been codified. They are absolutely ********. If Smith is able to get a rest and Hatcher can come back these two will be guys you really don't want to play against in the playoffs. Goat is much better than Smith at laying a ***** out, I will grant you that. But I still take Hatcher and Smith before Goat. Though Goat should be on this team next year.

Yeah, it would be better if Goat was on this team and one of Hatcher or Smith wasn't. I agree with that. But Hatcher and Smith aren't garbage and our defense quickly devolves into a very soft group without them.

Also, Hatcher is a PP specialist.

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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
It wouldnt be much smaller than Pominville and Hecht. Hecht is about the same size as Gagne, only a little more physical and Pominville may have an inch or two and 10-15 pounds if that on Giroux. Giroux looked like he knows how to avoid the big hits though, at least in that little we saw of him.

If Briere and Giroux click, you always have the option of moving Gagne down with Carter and Umberger back up there though, since Gagne/Carter/Upshall played pretty well last year.
10-15 pounds at the NHL level is all muscle. That's pretty huge.

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Old
02-27-2008, 01:55 PM
  #107
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Thinking about the Kaberle thing some more...I realized, I don't want him. **** him. He obviously had an opportunity to come here and didn't want to. Even if we are able to potentially acquire Kaberle in the offseason, I have no interest in bringing in some guy to play for us that doesn't want to be here. I don't care how good he is or how good the deal looks.

Fuggedaboudit. Kaberle can eat my ass.

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02-27-2008, 02:01 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
No ****. But being past one's prime doesn't necessarily equate to worthlessness. Both are much better positionally than Goat will ever be.


Goat isn't any better at clearing pucks. But to say that Hatcher doesn't have a positive effect on the rest of the team is willfully ignorant. Even the most ardent Hatch detractors at least recognize this.



Coburn - Hatcher has been a solid pairing all year. You can torture statistics all you want but you will still not be able to make them disprove that fact. However, Kimmo needs a partner that he works well with. We may have to pair Coburn with him because of that. However, splitting are best two d-men isn't ideal, imo. The simple fact is that this team plays better with Hatcher in the lineup. Hatcher has helped this team win more games than he has lost.


Yes, we do. Without Smith and Hatcher in the lineup we don't have a prayer come playoff time and are chances aren't as amazing as we'd like anyway.



Hatcher bit a mother****er. Both Hatcher and Smith are generally cheating as much as possible. And I don't mean cheating in the positional sense. I mean cheating as in breaking every code of conduct that has ever been codified. They are absolutely ********. If Smith is able to get a rest and Hatcher can come back these two will be guys you really don't want to play against in the playoffs. Goat is much better than Smith at laying a ***** out, I will grant you that. But I still take Hatcher and Smith before Goat. Though Goat should be on this team next year.

Yeah, it would be better if Goat was on this team and one of Hatcher or Smith wasn't. I agree with that. But Hatcher and Smith aren't garbage and our defense quickly devolves into a very soft group without them.

Also, Hatcher is a PP specialist.

10-15 pounds at the NHL level is all muscle. That's pretty huge.
Yeah, but that is 10/15 pounds now, not necessarily what Giroux will be at a couple years from now.....

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02-27-2008, 03:45 PM
  #109
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Hmm, there is an aweful lot on this thread, some of it good, some of it bad, some of it wishful thinking, and some of it funny. Let's take a look at what we know.

First, Homer said Carter was NEVER the guy he was going to trade so lets take him at his word and remove him from trade thoughts for the moment.

Second, he said they were going to make a trade but decided not to move forward but that they will still likely do the deal during the offseason. Now why? Well, first off, if they are going to do the deal in the offseason then the player obviously WASN'T traded before the trade deadline and SOMETHING came up that put a temporary hold on the trade. It sounds like both sides were agreeable to the trade so why wait??? Maybe one of the players had a NTC and wouldnt waive it but that they are in a situation where they'd have no choice in the offseason. Kind of sounds to me like we are talking about Kaberle.

Third, the Flyers need devense still as is evidence from their continued struggles in that department this year. Again, sounds to me like we are talking about aquiring a top flight dman.

Ok, lets assume it is Kaberle for a moment. He's and allstar dman costing only 4.5 mil or so for the next 3 seasons. THAT'S A HUGE BARGIN!!! So what's his asking price going to be??? Most likely it's going to be pretty high.

Ok, now what does Tor "NEED" in return (besides everything)?? They traded away 1 dman already and if they deal us Kabs thats 2 gone, they dealt 2 wings, their #1 center Sundin is coming to the end of his career, Andropov is likely gone after this season so that's 2 center spots they need to fill. It looks to me that any deal with them will include a center, a wing and a dman.

So who gets traded??? Now this is where it gets tricky. A player like Kabs at the price he currently is locked up for is going to cost a bundle so expect a top notch prospect/player and/or a high pick. I'll list a couple of possible trades as I see them.

Looking at the price that Pronger earned just a few years ago the asking price for Kabs (who is at a better price than Pronger I believe) would be something like your best prospect (either JVR or Giroux, or possibly even Carter), your 08 1st rnd pick, and another young roster player (like say Upshall or Umberger). That's a pretty heavty price to pay but it does get us what may be the best blue line in the east.

And last, unless Carter was moved in the deal, Hatcher would have to retire or be sent to the minors for the year to make cap space for Kabs and Carter.

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Old
02-27-2008, 04:15 PM
  #110
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Sickamore...

It's easy to call out Smith and Hatch as old/injured players but you just seem unwilling to accept that guys can serve a team beyond what their skills say at a combine...

You might have a better argument if you weren't trying to replace these guys with Gauthier...he's just not in the cards right now

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Old
02-27-2008, 04:18 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Ok, lets assume it is Kaberle for a moment. He's and allstar dman costing only 4.5 mil or so for the next 3 seasons. THAT'S A HUGE BARGIN!!! So what's his asking price going to be??? Most likely it's going to be pretty high.

Ok, now what does Tor "NEED" in return (besides everything)?? They traded away 1 dman already and if they deal us Kabs thats 2 gone, they dealt 2 wings, their #1 center Sundin is coming to the end of his career, Andropov is likely gone after this season so that's 2 center spots they need to fill. It looks to me that any deal with them will include a center, a wing and a dman.

So who gets traded??? Now this is where it gets tricky. A player like Kabs at the price he currently is locked up for is going to cost a bundle so expect a top notch prospect/player and/or a high pick. I'll list a couple of possible trades as I see them.

Looking at the price that Pronger earned just a few years ago the asking price for Kabs (who is at a better price than Pronger I believe) would be something like your best prospect (either JVR or Giroux, or possibly even Carter), your 08 1st rnd pick, and another young roster player (like say Upshall or Umberger). That's a pretty heavty price to pay but it does get us what may be the best blue line in the east.

And last, unless Carter was moved in the deal, Hatcher would have to retire or be sent to the minors for the year to make cap space for Kabs and Carter.

#1. Toronto hasn't moved their best defenseman. In fact Kaberle, McCabe and Kubina are still all on the team.

#2. Pronger was traded for Lupul, Smid, 1st round pick & a conditional 1st (only if Ducks won the Cup). One year prior Pronger was traded for Brewer, Woywitka and Doug Lynch.

#3. Kaberle while a nice defenseman, isn't in Pronger's league. Pronger is a dominating sonova***** that's a lock Hall of Famer. He instantly transforms a good/decent team into a Stanley Cup contender. Kaberle is a nice piece, but you aren't winning a Cup with him as your best player.

#4. The Flyers would send waive Hatcher in a millisecond.

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Old
02-27-2008, 04:19 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Thinking about the Kaberle thing some more...I realized, I don't want him. **** him. He obviously had an opportunity to come here and didn't want to. Even if we are able to potentially acquire Kaberle in the offseason, I have no interest in bringing in some guy to play for us that doesn't want to be here. I don't care how good he is or how good the deal looks.

Fuggedaboudit. Kaberle can eat my ass.
Yeah, it's kind of insulting but I think it had more to do with being committed to Toronto than rejecting another team (the Flyers or whoever).

It's a commitment I'll never understand, however.

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02-27-2008, 04:29 PM
  #113
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No ****. But being past one's prime doesn't necessarily equate to worthlessness. Both are much better positionally than Goat will ever be.
No it doesn't necessarily, but they have proven that to be true in their respective cases. As for positioning, it doesn't do much good without mobility and often turns into screening the goalie. It also hurts that they continually give up the blue line to get into that "perfect" position. So now that the team is in the zone they can cycle over andd over without fear of a defender on one side coming near them and if they do then a nice spot just opened up for a shot since they can't get back in time to do anything about it. One player is always free since they don't have to screen the goalie with one of their own.

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Goat isn't any better at clearing pucks. But to say that Hatcher doesn't have a positive effect on the rest of the team is willfully ignorant. Even the most ardent Hatch detractors at least recognize this.
As bad as Hatch and Smith have been i'm not sure I would make that statement. But Goat is here and in the system and only costs as much as the contract he's already signed. Third pair player would be great for him. Anything above it and we're back to the same issue.

I'm not a crowd follower so I'll just go with my own opinion on this one. Whatever positive influence he has has nothing to do with playing the game. Maybe he's the guy who buys beer for the kids and so they like him, but his leadership is a joke and he proved it. There's a reason he didn't retain the C and why he wasn't traded in the firesale of a horrible season. He sucks.

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Coburn - Hatcher has been a solid pairing all year. You can torture statistics all you want but you will still not be able to make them disprove that fact. However, Kimmo needs a partner that he works well with. We may have to pair Coburn with him because of that. However, splitting are best two d-men isn't ideal, imo. The simple fact is that this team plays better with Hatcher in the lineup. Hatcher has helped this team win more games than he has lost.
What fact? Coburn came in as a pretty high end youngster and has looked better without him. I'd argue that he learned alot about defensive responsibility from having to cover for Lurch and that who gives a shiznit attitude may have helped Coburn from beating himself up when he didn't do more to save the Wreck on his other side. But I wouldn't praise the problem. I praise the guy who overcame it. That's Coburn.

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Yes, we do. Without Smith and Hatcher in the lineup we don't have a prayer come playoff time and are chances aren't as amazing as we'd like anyway.
No team ever needed Smith and one team may have needed Hatcher once, but that really was a good team. Being options on a poor defensive squad does not make them necessary, just available.

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Hatcher bit a mother****er. Both Hatcher and Smith are generally cheating as much as possible. And I don't mean cheating in the positional sense. I mean cheating as in breaking every code of conduct that has ever been codified. They are absolutely ********. If Smith is able to get a rest and Hatcher can come back these two will be guys you really don't want to play against in the playoffs. Goat is much better than Smith at laying a ***** out, I will grant you that. But I still take Hatcher and Smith before Goat. Though Goat should be on this team next year.
Yeah, that biting thing quieted down real fast, almost unbelievably fast, especially for a team on super duper double secret probation. They're cheating alright, cheating the fans and the people who are paying them. Like I said, no team ever needed Smith and when his Oilers made the playoffs with all his leadership guiding them the opposition hated playing against them so much they knocked them out of the playoffs as fast as they could. Round 1

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big ol' Goat supporter. He's just already here and better than they are at this point in their careers. That's why they won't have to look for toughness this offseason, for the third line anyway.

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Yeah, it would be better if Goat was on this team and one of Hatcher or Smith wasn't. I agree with that. But Hatcher and Smith aren't garbage and our defense quickly devolves into a very soft group without them.
In case you haven't noticed, our defense is soft. With them.

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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Also, Hatcher is a PP specialist.
I remember that. He was also a PK monster last year. Right about the time Richards came back from injury and jumpstarted that aggressive style that got them a few shorthanded goals to finish the year. Much like this years version of the PK. Hatcher was the one looking to the sky as yet another goal was scored because of his positionally sound screen, consoling himself that his stats wouldn't suffer because of it though.

There's seeing him for what he was, seeing him for what you want him to be, and seeing him for what he is. I liked both guys coming in, but I cannot deny what they are now.

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02-27-2008, 04:36 PM
  #114
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if i had to deal 1 it would be giroux

JvR is gonna be special. He is still growing and getting stronger. we will be the type of player that can dominate smaller teams. he will be great alog the boards and still has good speed. i have only seen him a few times but he seems to have great hands and pretty good moves. he also has a nice accurate shot. He will be able to dominate a game along the boards and in the corners. I cant wait for him to be on this club and i would LOVE to have this eventually.

Gagne-Briere-JvR= hopefully gagne comes back fine- could be dominant and fast line
Lupul-Richards-Hartnell= already works no need to fix it
Giroux-Carter-Umberger=might have downie to add grit but another great scoring line
Downie-Potulny-Upshall=unrealistice but could be great if there was no Cap

I know that 4th line wouldnt be theer due to slary cap so i might switch downiw with umberger and trade umberger for a younger D man or something

Timmonen-Parent= very good line has youth+expeirence
Coburn-Marshall= stretch but i think marshall could work geat if improvemnt continues
Jones Kukkonen=strong 5-6 could stay on team
Bartulis-Ratchuk=i know we only have 6 D but these 2 could also be on team

now we just need a goalie prospect

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02-27-2008, 04:48 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by flyboys15 View Post
Sickamore...

It's easy to call out Smith and Hatch as old/injured players but you just seem unwilling to accept that guys can serve a team beyond what their skills say at a combine...

You might have a better argument if you weren't trying to replace these guys with Gauthier...he's just not in the cards right now
It's easy because it's true.

Unwilling to accept what? Their leadership has been nothing but hype. You don't think they could have been the worst team in the league and in Flyers history without Hatcher's leadership? And yet there they were, with all that leadership.

You think it was great leadership that had the Oil bounced in the first round every year that they didn't miss the playoffs entirely? You don't think this new group of players and Richards explosive improvement could have had them playing this roller coaster, hot and cold style season?

My argument has nothing to do with Goat playing this year.


Last edited by sickamore: 02-27-2008 at 06:46 PM.
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Old
02-27-2008, 08:49 PM
  #116
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It's easy because it's true.

Unwilling to accept what? Their leadership has been nothing but hype. You don't think they could have been the worst team in the league and in Flyers history without Hatcher's leadership? And yet there they were, with all that leadership.

You think it was great leadership that had the Oil bounced in the first round every year that they didn't miss the playoffs entirely? You don't think this new group of players and Richards explosive improvement could have had them playing this roller coaster, hot and cold style season?

My argument has nothing to do with Goat playing this year.
The Oil went to the cup and lost in game 7 with Smith as captain...

He's still wearing the C and your argument was that Goat is better suited for this team than him and Hatch because you refuse to believe people are telling the truth when they report the two as leaders...

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02-28-2008, 05:49 AM
  #117
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The Oil went to the cup and lost in game 7 with Smith as captain...

He's still wearing the C and your argument was that Goat is better suited for this team than him and Hatch because you refuse to believe people are telling the truth when they report the two as leaders...
I guess you don't remember a couple of guys named Pronger and Peca who helped take that team further than ever while under Smith's leadership. And I guess you don't remember how far they fell after their departure, but still under Smith's leadership.

No, I don't buy the leadership hype from either of these guys. I don't wait to be told or believe what I hear without watching. I don't doubt that they believe it, I do doubt it is as they say.

Smith wearing the C still doesn't mean jack because he hasn't done anything to have it stripped, like his counterpart, Hatch, did. He also hasn't done anything to prove he is the answer for that and deserves it past this season, or a contract.

My argument, that you keep failing to comprehend, is now that we know Hatch and Smith suck at defense and their leadership is questionable at best they can be let go and their toughness and third pair ability can be replaced by Gauthier next season. They will still need a real leader. Even if Smith is retained. I'm not saying that it's easy to find, but it's not hard to see when it isn't there.

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02-28-2008, 03:56 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
I guess you don't remember a couple of guys named Pronger and Peca who helped take that team further than ever while under Smith's leadership. And I guess you don't remember how far they fell after their departure, but still under Smith's leadership.

No, I don't buy the leadership hype from either of these guys. I don't wait to be told or believe what I hear without watching. I don't doubt that they believe it, I do doubt it is as they say.

Smith wearing the C still doesn't mean jack because he hasn't done anything to have it stripped, like his counterpart, Hatch, did. He also hasn't done anything to prove he is the answer for that and deserves it past this season, or a contract.

My argument, that you keep failing to comprehend, is now that we know Hatch and Smith suck at defense and their leadership is questionable at best they can be let go and their toughness and third pair ability can be replaced by Gauthier next season. They will still need a real leader. Even if Smith is retained. I'm not saying that it's easy to find, but it's not hard to see when it isn't there.
I haven't failed to see or understand anything, we just happen to possess different opinions on the matter...

The fact of the matter is that you think Gauthier can step up to the NHL roster and replace what Hatch and Smith provide...why don't you hop over to the thread about calling up Goat and see who agrees with you...and yes, I know they are speaking of this year, we are speaking of next...but he'll just be getting older next season right?

I'm not waiting for anyone to tell me that leadership exists but I'm not going to pretend I know how that locker room works, what is said, who says it...and I'm not going to pretend I can read lips from the bench...if you are speaking of leaders who lead with their play on the ice, their talent...on a team full of injuries one of thier most banged up players is still on the ice everynight giving it all that he's got...and that's a leader.

And if I need to add more to Smith's resume how about recalling that Edmonton team he played for, didn't he play with a guy there whose nickname was "Captain Canada?" How the hell did this useless leader deserve the "C" over that guy?


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02-28-2008, 05:30 PM
  #119
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Uh, one thing, Denis Gauthier ISN'T here like you say he is. Denis is in the AHL, not the NHL. We would have to recall him and there is no way he'd make it through waivers. He'd be snatched up for sure. There are teams out there with much worse defenses than us and at only 1.2 mil (that's what any team who snatched him away on re-entry waivers would have to pay him and we'd be on the hook for the other 1.2 mil of his contract this year AND next year) MANY MANY teams would be lining up for his services.

Also, if you think Denis would be better defensively than Hatcher or Smith then there is something wrong with you. Hell, even my blind nephew (yes, he IS legally and functionally blind) could tell that simply by listening to play-by-play. Excuse me if I trust the opinion of the Flyers coaches WHO HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME PROFESSIONALLY over that of some internet know-it-all regarding who should or should NOT have been sent to the minors. I think THEY are a little better judge of these things than the rest of us.

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02-28-2008, 05:47 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
I guess you don't remember a couple of guys named Pronger and Peca who helped take that team further than ever while under Smith's leadership. And I guess you don't remember how far they fell after their departure, but still under Smith's leadership.

No, I don't buy the leadership hype from either of these guys. I don't wait to be told or believe what I hear without watching. I don't doubt that they believe it, I do doubt it is as they say.

Smith wearing the C still doesn't mean jack because he hasn't done anything to have it stripped, like his counterpart, Hatch, did. He also hasn't done anything to prove he is the answer for that and deserves it past this season, or a contract.

My argument, that you keep failing to comprehend, is now that we know Hatch and Smith suck at defense and their leadership is questionable at best they can be let go and their toughness and third pair ability can be replaced by Gauthier next season. They will still need a real leader. Even if Smith is retained. I'm not saying that it's easy to find, but it's not hard to see when it isn't there.

You MUST live under a rock then. The Flyers coaches, managment AND players have ALL said that Hatcher has been a great on-ice coach for the young dmen around him. It really isn't a surprise that Picard had some measure of success last year WHILE HE WAS PAIRED WITH HATCHER and when they were split up, Picard seemed to take a step backwards. From the day he arived Coburn has nbeen paired with Hatcher most of the time. Yes Hatcher has benefitted from both Picard and Coburn being able to get back quick and cover for Hatcher being slow to get back or on a dump in, but Hatcher has helped THEIR growth just as much as they have helped cover for Hatchers inadequacies. Gauthier could NEVER help Picard or Coburn or anyo other young dman for that matter grow in understanding their responsibilities or player tendacies. Again, sorry for you if I choose to take the opinions for those PROFESSIONALS around the team regarding Hatcher and his leadership/coaching abilities over some internet know-it-all.

Next, I have to laugh at you for questioning Smith's leadership ability and it's importance. Obviously you must miss 90% of what's going on out there on the ice even when you watch every minute of every game. The BIGGEST difference between last years team and this years team is leadership, plain and simple. Last year we had no leadership and it showed. We improved our leadership all the way around from players to coaches and THAT's what is most responsible for our return to the playoff hunt. We no longer have that "deer in the headlights" look when we take the ice like we did last year. Even during this recent loosing streak, there wasn't panic within the ranks. THAT'S LEADERSHIP and it starts with our captain. Again, excuse me if I laugh at you as being an internet know-it-all and thinking you are a better judge of his importance than our coaches and managment who have ALL played the game professionally. But go ahead and keep watching things through what ever colored glasses you do, you're right, the PROFESSIONALS are all wrong. I bet you're the type of guy who wants to tell his lawyer how to run his murder defense. Hire a professional to give you advice and then tell them they are wrong, you know best. Good job there buddy.

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02-28-2008, 06:41 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by flyboys15 View Post
I haven't failed to see or understand anything, we just happen to possess different opinions on the matter...

The fact of the matter is that you think Gauthier can step up to the NHL roster and replace what Hatch and Smith provide...why don't you hop over to the thread about calling up Goat and see who agrees with you...and yes, I know they are speaking of this year, we are speaking of next...but he'll just be getting older next season right?

I'm not waiting for anyone to tell me that leadership exists but I'm not going to pretend I know how that locker room works, what is said, who says it...and I'm not going to pretend I can read lips from the bench...if you are speaking of leaders who lead with their play on the ice, their talent...on a team full of injuries one of thier most banged up players is still on the ice everynight giving it all that he's got...and that's a leader.

And if I need to add more to Smith's resume how about recalling that Edmonton team he played for, didn't he play with a guy there whose nickname was "Captain Canada?" How the hell did this useless leader deserve the "C" over that guy?
Bolded 1) Yes you did fail to understand. That's why you commented on something I never said

Bolded 2) And this is why I'm done wasting my time with you. Unlike you I don't base my opinion on popular vote.

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02-28-2008, 07:00 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You MUST live under a rock then. The Flyers coaches, managment AND players have ALL said that Hatcher has been a great on-ice coach for the young dmen around him. It really isn't a surprise that Picard had some measure of success last year WHILE HE WAS PAIRED WITH HATCHER and when they were split up, Picard seemed to take a step backwards. From the day he arived Coburn has nbeen paired with Hatcher most of the time. Yes Hatcher has benefitted from both Picard and Coburn being able to get back quick and cover for Hatcher being slow to get back or on a dump in, but Hatcher has helped THEIR growth just as much as they have helped cover for Hatchers inadequacies. Gauthier could NEVER help Picard or Coburn or anyo other young dman for that matter grow in understanding their responsibilities or player tendacies. Again, sorry for you if I choose to take the opinions for those PROFESSIONALS around the team regarding Hatcher and his leadership/coaching abilities over some internet know-it-all.

Next, I have to laugh at you for questioning Smith's leadership ability and it's importance. Obviously you must miss 90% of what's going on out there on the ice even when you watch every minute of every game. The BIGGEST difference between last years team and this years team is leadership, plain and simple. Last year we had no leadership and it showed. We improved our leadership all the way around from players to coaches and THAT's what is most responsible for our return to the playoff hunt. We no longer have that "deer in the headlights" look when we take the ice like we did last year. Even during this recent loosing streak, there wasn't panic within the ranks. THAT'S LEADERSHIP and it starts with our captain. Again, excuse me if I laugh at you as being an internet know-it-all and thinking you are a better judge of his importance than our coaches and managment who have ALL played the game professionally. But go ahead and keep watching things through what ever colored glasses you do, you're right, the PROFESSIONALS are all wrong. I bet you're the type of guy who wants to tell his lawyer how to run his murder defense. Hire a professional to give you advice and then tell them they are wrong, you know best. Good job there buddy.
And the lemmings keep going over the cliff.

Of course we know coaches and management always tell the absolute truth. They are just such candid people. So if they said it it's gospel truth and listeners should feel free to add to it to fit their desire of what a player is. You really got a point there. Wonder why they stripped Hatcher of the C.

Of course Hatcher is now a coach and not a leader. Great. But isn't that what the bench is for? Coaches? How 'bout this, Picard looked better next to Hatcher not because of Hatcher, but by comparison and by comparison to a horrible team. Wonder why he didn't stick. Must be that there's only so much Coach Hatcher to go around. Another great point.

Smith. They also added former captains Timonen and Briere and we're lucky enough to see the breakout of future captain Richards. But they still have Hatcher, the "coach" that led them to disaster last season. Of course Smith is the captain and it all starts there and there is no way on Gawd's green earth that Homer made a mistake in picking who would be the guy who would be the supreme leader. Or, it's just possible, he gave it to the shortest contracted player because he knew Richards would be inheriting it in the very near future. Naw, couldn't be! He's Captain Superdude! That's why he's got that new contract, right?

So you keep believing they all tell the absolute truth and never make a mistake in judgement and, of course, they would always admit it right away because they wouldn't need more time to make sure and they would definitely strip the C from a guy who hasn't done anything wrong to the organization and disrespect someone publicly in hopes of attracting more self loathers looking for a shot to be ***** on just to make sure the letter is the exact right person at all times. Good job there buddy

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02-28-2008, 07:12 PM
  #123
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Uh, one thing, Denis Gauthier ISN'T here like you say he is. Denis is in the AHL, not the NHL. We would have to recall him and there is no way he'd make it through waivers. He'd be snatched up for sure. There are teams out there with much worse defenses than us and at only 1.2 mil (that's what any team who snatched him away on re-entry waivers would have to pay him and we'd be on the hook for the other 1.2 mil of his contract this year AND next year) MANY MANY teams would be lining up for his services.

Also, if you think Denis would be better defensively than Hatcher or Smith then there is something wrong with you. Hell, even my blind nephew (yes, he IS legally and functionally blind) could tell that simply by listening to play-by-play. Excuse me if I trust the opinion of the Flyers coaches WHO HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME PROFESSIONALLY over that of some internet know-it-all regarding who should or should NOT have been sent to the minors. I think THEY are a little better judge of these things than the rest of us.
buh bye


Last edited by sickamore: 02-28-2008 at 07:41 PM.
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02-28-2008, 08:00 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I think Holmgren is hard after Kaberle still. If the Leafs miss the playoffs, his NTC is null and void, Toronto can trade him wherever they want if they choose to.


From IB's site:
From what I read, this part of Kaberle's contract was widely reported, but wrong. The voiding of the NTC if they don't make the playoffs only applies to the last years of his contract, so he will have a NTC this summer. I'll try to find where I read this.

Edit: Here'e the article . . .
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=13426

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02-28-2008, 09:14 PM
  #125
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buh bye

Lemmings, lol, great one. I know, lets all play his game. The coaches "know" that Smith really isn't a leader but they just made him captain because they like to lie to the fans. Great logic there Potsey (remember the dork from Happy Days, that's you). Yup, lets all listen to an internet dork and not people who actually KNOW the game. Keep it up dork, you really are making yourself out to be the board fool and THAT's saying something.

So I guess it's just coincidence that Picard played better when paired with Hatcher and when they were split up, Picard regressed (Picard regressed A LOT and not all of it was just being split from Hatcher but it was at least part of it). I guess the coaches and players are wrong and just blowing smoke up everyones butts right. I bet you wear tinfoil on your head when you go to bed so that the government can't read your mind while you are asleep don't you???

The coaches and managment only lie and if you don't believe that then you are a lemming right??? Keep it up Potsey. I guess now you are going to tell us that Homer is really the anti-christ and that this summer he's going trade away all our youth for aged vets and sign more players to cap-strapping contracts because everyone "KNOWS" (or at least SHOULD know, right?) that managment and coachs lie all the time.


If you actually watch the games you'd see that the Flyers STILL make many of the mistakes that killed them last season. They still turn over way too many pucks in their own zone, they make blind passes, they play sloppy in the d-zone and they chase pucks. ALL OF THAT IS COACHING, which still hasn't been fixed but IS at least a little bit better (just look at the turnaround in the PP, that's been mainly due to coaching). The mis-ques are still there but THIS year the team doesn't let it kill them MENTALLY. THAT'S ALL ABOUT LEADERSHIP. Never once did I say it was only about Smith. They brought in Smith, Briere and Timonen, all of whom were former team captains/co-captains, and together, they have given this team composer in the face of adversity. The FACT that the coaches and managment chose Smith over the other 2 guys or an existing Flyer should speak volumes for that mans character and leadership ability. Only a Potsey ****** like you could possibley conclude that all those guys knew Smith stunk but that they only gave him the captaincy to hide this fact and to trick the fans into backing Smith. Can we say paranoid??? You think I'm a lemming for accepting their judgement??? I think that 99% of the people would find me to the be level headed one of the two of us and you to be the paranoid person. But keep on living on Fantasy Island there Potsey. "Look, de plane, de plane."

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