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CBA: Blake Wheeler question

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02-28-2008, 06:01 PM
  #1
mouser
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CBA: Blake Wheeler question

Blake Wheeler was drafted in 2004 by Phoenix while a junior in high school. He is currently a junior at the U of Minnesota. My fellow Phoenix fans and I were under the assumption that the Yotes would hold Wheeler's rights through his senior college year next season. However, examining the CBA it looks like it introduced a new 'loophole' for college players.

Sections 8.6c(i) and 8.6c(iii) both indicate if Wheeler stays in college through May of 2009 (UofMinn graduation) then Phoenix would hold his rights until August 15th 2009. Note: I believe (i) actually applies here rather than (iii) due to the new CBA transition rules in Exhibit 16, but not certain.

Quote:
(c) College Players.
(i) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at
the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide
college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in
the Entry Draft, and remains a bona fide college student through
the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain the
exclusive right of negotiation for his services through and
including the August 15 following the graduation of his college
class. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to
retain such rights.

(iii) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19, who had received a Bona Fide
Offer in accordance with Section 8.6(a)(ii) above, becomes a bona
fide college student prior to the second June 1 following his
selection in the Entry Draft and remains a bona fide college student
through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall
retain the exclusive rights of negotiation for his services through
and including the August 15 following the graduation of his
college class.

Section 8.6c(ii) and 8.6c(iv) seem to indicate Wheeler could immediately become a UFA by leaving school after the 2008 Draft. (I'm still a little unsure whether ii or iv applies here?)

Quote:
(ii) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at
the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide
college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in
the Entry Draft, and does not remain a bona fide college student
through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall
retain exclusive rights for the negotiation of his services until the
fourth June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft. The Club
need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such
rights.

(iv) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19, who had received a Bona Fide
Offer in accordance with Section 8.6(a)(ii) above, becomes a bona
fide college student prior to the second June 1 following his
selection in the Entry Draft and does not remain a bona fide
college student through the graduation of his college class, his
drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the negotiation of his
services until the fourth June 1 following his selection in the Entry
Draft.

Any CBA afficionados want to chime in on this? Is the following interpretation correct:

a) Wheeler leaves school before June 1st 2008, Phoenix would hold his rights until June 1st 2008, after which he would re-enter the 2008 Draft.

b) Wheeler leaves school between June 1st and June 26th 2008, Wheeler would re-enter the 2008 Draft.

c) Wheeler leaves school after June 26th 2008 and before May 2009 he immediately becomes a UFA.

d) Wheeler stays in school through May 2009, Yotes hold his rights until August 15th 2009 when he would become a UFA.

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02-28-2008, 07:54 PM
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kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Blake Wheeler was drafted in 2004 by Phoenix while a junior in high school. He is currently a junior at the U of Minnesota. My fellow Phoenix fans and I were under the assumption that the Yotes would hold Wheeler's rights through his senior college year next season. However, examining the CBA it looks like it introduced a new 'loophole' for college players.

Sections 8.6c(i) and 8.6c(iii) both indicate if Wheeler stays in college through May of 2009 (UofMinn graduation) then Phoenix would hold his rights until August 15th 2009. Note: I believe (i) actually applies here rather than (iii) due to the new CBA transition rules in Exhibit 16, but not certain.




Section 8.6c(ii) and 8.6c(iv) seem to indicate Wheeler could immediately become a UFA by leaving school after the 2008 Draft. (I'm still a little unsure whether ii or iv applies here?)



Wheeler is an interesting case - he was drafted, played another year of High School, and then went to Minnesota (starting in the '05-'06 season).

Had he been drafted under the current CBA, the big question would have been - when did he officially enroll in Minnesota. If he enrolled after June 1, 2005, he would not have met the "or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft" qualification - and would not be subject to the extended draft rights (4 yrs or class graduation) accorded to college players under 8.6(c). Instead, he would have had his rights held for only 2 years under 8.6(a). Fortunately for Phoenix, they get an "out" under the transition rules of Exhibit 16:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Exhibit 16
i. For Unsigned Draft Choices in college who were drafted in the 2004 Entry Draft
or before (or who subsequently became bona fide college students since being
drafted), such Players will be subject to the Article 8 provisions governing college
players.
As long as he was a bona fide college student when the CBA was signed (and he was), he became covered under 8.6(c) even if he was not "a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft"

OK - now on to your cases:

Quote:
Any CBA afficionados want to chime in on this? Is the following interpretation correct:

a) Wheeler leaves school before June 1st 2008, Phoenix would hold his rights until June 1st 2008, after which he would re-enter the 2008 Draft.
Correct - under 8.6(c)(ii) or (iv) - it isn't clear which would apply, but the effect is the same.

He would re-enter the draft in '08, since he would still be draft eligible under Article 8.4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Article 8.4
8.4 Eligibility for Claim.

(a) All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft,
except:
(i) a Player on the Reserve List of a Club, other than as a try-out;

(ii) a Player who has been claimed in two prior Entry Drafts;

(iii) a Player who previously played in the League and became a Free
Agent pursuant to this Agreement;

(iv) a Player age 21 or older who: (A) has not been selected in a
previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season
in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20 and shall be
eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant
to Article 10.1(d); and

(v) a Player age 22 or older who has not been selected in a previous
Entry Draft and shall be eligible to enter the League as an
Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d).

Quote:
b) Wheeler leaves school between June 1st and June 26th 2008, Wheeler would re-enter the 2008 Draft.
This case is a little less clear. Is the deadline for determining whether he is a bona fide college student June 1 or June 26 (I assume this is the date of the upcoming draft)? The CBA is silent on this point.

All other draft eligibility cases have a June 1 date. It is reasonable that the league establish a deadline to establish draft eligibility so that the list of draft eligible players can be established enough before the draft so that all teams can prepare. If June 1 is NOT the cutoff, what would stop Wheeler from secretly dropping out potentially giving one team an advantage over others.

My guess is that the league would enforce eligibility based on that June 1 cutoff, in which case he would not be eligible for the 2008 draft, but would be treated the same as under your case c) below.

If the league rules that June 1 is NOT the cutoff, then you are correct and he would be treated the same as case a) above.

Quote:
c) Wheeler leaves school after June 26th 2008 and before May 2009 he immediately becomes a UFA.
Correct - sort of. He could become a UFA, but if not signed by the '09 draft, he would still be draft eligible.

He is not eligible for the '08 draft since he would still be on Phoenix's reserved list (Article 8.4(a)(i)).

Ones he is no longer a bona fide college student, Phoenix no longer owns his rights, and he does meet the eligibility requirements to play in the NHL under Article 8.9(a).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Article 8.9
8.9 Eligibility for Play in the League. No Player shall be eligible for play in the
League unless he:
(a) had been claimed in the last Entry Draft, or was ineligible for claim under
Section 8.4; or
As a result he would become a UFA and would be free to sign with any team, but would still be subject to the ELS limits.

Note that if he is not signed (and thus on another teams reserved list) by the '09 draft, he would still be considered draft eligible. Article 8.4(a)(iii) would not apply, since he did not play in the league prior to becoming a UFA.

Quote:
d) Wheeler stays in school through May 2009, Yotes hold his rights until August 15th 2009 when he would become a UFA.
Correct. Phoenix's exclusive rights expire on 8/15 under 8.6(c)(i) or (iii). He then becomes a UFA following the same reasons as case c) - he is not on a reserve list and he is eligible to play in the league. Like in case c), he retains his draft eligibility if not signed before the '09 draft.

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05-09-2008, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Any CBA afficionados want to chime in on this? Is the following interpretation correct:

a) Wheeler leaves school before June 1st 2008, Phoenix would hold his rights until June 1st 2008, after which he would re-enter the 2008 Draft.
Correct - under 8.6(c)(ii) or (iv) - it isn't clear which would apply, but the effect is the same.

He would re-enter the draft in '08, since he would still be draft eligible under Article 8.4.
Well it turns out Wheeler has left school:
http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_9208120?source=rss

What's confounding is all the news reports are stating Phoenix has 30 days to sign him or he becomes a UFA. My belief is that's how it would have worked under the old CBA, however as covered already in this thread it should be completely different under the new CBA.


Were the new CBA college player rules ammended?

Are the news reports (and presumably Wheeler's agent) completely wrong?

Are we misinterpretating something in the new CBA?

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05-09-2008, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post


Were the new CBA college player rules ammended?

Are the news reports (and presumably Wheeler's agent) completely wrong?

Are we misinterpretating something in the new CBA?
wouldnt it simply be a case of old rules being applied as he was drafted under the old CBA?

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05-09-2008, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Well it turns out Wheeler has left school:
http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_9208120?source=rss

What's confounding is all the news reports are stating Phoenix has 30 days to sign him or he becomes a UFA. My belief is that's how it would have worked under the old CBA, however as covered already in this thread it should be completely different under the new CBA.


Were the new CBA college player rules ammended?

Are the news reports (and presumably Wheeler's agent) completely wrong?

Are we misinterpretating something in the new CBA?
If you read the thrad you would already have your answer.


Quote:
a) Wheeler leaves school before June 1st 2008, Phoenix would hold his rights until June 1st 2008, after which he would re-enter the 2008 Draft.
Wheeler left school before June 1st. So Phoenix has until June 1st to sign him or he is a free agent. The Coyotes would get a second round pick as compensation for not signing Wheeler.

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05-09-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
If you read the thrad you would already have your answer.
no, as the post you quoted explains, it was thought that wheeler would reenter the draft if not signed.

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05-09-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
wouldnt it simply be a case of old rules being applied as he was drafted under the old CBA?
The old CBA isn't valid anymore--contractually none of the old rules can apply unless the new CBA explicitly states they apply. Rookie salary is one example of a rule that is grandfathered into the new CBA so that unsigned players drafted under the old CBA can get larger rookie contracts--see Exhibit 16.2(a)


In the Exhibit 16 transition clauses for the new CBA, there is a statement that college players drafted under the old CBA are subject to Article 8 of the new CBA, which contains all the clauses for how long teams hold rights to draftees. There's no language containing any grandfathered clauses for college rights.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Exhibit 16.2(i)
i. For Unsigned Draft Choices in college who were drafted in the 2004 Entry Draft
or before (or who subsequently became bona fide college students since being
drafted), such Players will be subject to the Article 8 provisions governing college
players.

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05-09-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
The old CBA isn't valid anymore--contractually none of the old rules can apply unless the new CBA explicitly states they apply. Rookie salary is one example of a rule that is grandfathered into the new CBA so that unsigned players drafted under the old CBA can get larger rookie contracts--see Exhibit 16.2(a)


In the Exhibit 16 transition clauses for the new CBA, there is a statement that college players drafted under the old CBA are subject to Article 8 of the new CBA, which contains all the clauses for how long teams hold rights to draftees. There's no language containing any grandfathered clauses for college rights.
I commented more in the Wheeler thread on the Prospect Board:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=515423

But this looks like AJ Thelen - Part Deux. Barrie argued that Thelen should be treated under the second sentence of Exhibit 16.3 and then become a UFA under the rules of the old CBA.

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06-09-2008, 10:24 PM
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CBA Question re Blake Wheeler

can anyone explain why the Blue were given 30 days from the time Wheeler left school to sign him, and not until June 1. I see the relevant CBA section as 8.6(c)(iv), which essentially states that a college player that does not graduate has his rights retained for four years until June 1. Where does this 30 day rule come from?

Also, why does Wheeler become a UFA and not go back into the draft? Can someone please provide the CBA sections or specific articles and subsections that deal with these issues? I'm assuming I'm missing it somewhere and just can't find it. Thanks.

Also, how are people copying and pasting sections the CBA, I'm being told I need a password to do this, why would the NHL have done that?

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06-09-2008, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rananda View Post
can anyone explain why the Blue were given 30 days from the time Wheeler left school to sign him, and not until June 1. I see the relevant CBA section as 8.6(c)(iv), which essentially states that a college player that does not graduate has his rights retained for four years until June 1. Where does this 30 day rule come from?

Also, why does Wheeler become a UFA and not go back into the draft? Can someone please provide the CBA sections or specific articles and subsections that deal with these issues? I'm assuming I'm missing it somewhere and just can't find it. Thanks.

Also, how are people copying and pasting sections the CBA, I'm being told I need a password to do this, why would the NHL have done that?
Wheeler was drafted by the 'Yotes, not the Blues.

Wheeler (and AJ Thelen last year) were drafted under the old CBA - so his draft rights were covered under the transition rules of Exhibit 16 of the CBA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Exhibit 16(i)
i. For Unsigned Draft Choices in college who were drafted in the 2004 Entry Draft
or before (or who subsequently became bona fide college students since being
drafted), such Players will be subject to the Article 8 provisions governing college
players. For Unsigned Draft Choices who were drafted from college, but who
have subsequently left college and announced a commitment to play hockey
elsewhere in North America or Europe, a Club's exclusive negotiating rights to
such Players will automatically be extended through and including June 1, 2007.
Thelen's agent argues (and won) that since the second sentence (bolded) does not mention Article 8 (like the first sentence), players who leave college early are not covered by Article 8 - they do not go back into the draft and can become UFAs. Wheeler used the same argument.

I have not seen any references to any 30 day rule w.r.t. Wheeler - just that he turnrd down teh 'Yotes offer (which was subject to the more generous ELS limits of the old CBA) in order to become a UFA (and subject to the ELS limits of the new CBA).

The CBA was made available on both the NHL and NHLPA websites - one copy (2005-CBA.pdf) allowed cut-and-paste, the other (NHL_NHLPA_2005_CBA.pdf) did not. I forget which one coame from where.

If you search, there were a bunch of other Wheeler (and Thelen) threads here and on the main NHL talk / free agent / prospect boards. I'm guessing this one will get merged with the last BoH Wheeler thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=485834


Last edited by kdb209: 06-09-2008 at 10:54 PM.
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06-10-2008, 05:07 PM
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thank you, this is helpful but i dont think this makes much sense. how on earth could wheeler not fall under the first sentence of Exhibit 16? the 30 day rule has been cited in many news stories on the Wheeler situation. example: http://www.gophersports.com/ViewArti...db_oem_id=8400

i have no idea where that 30 day number is coming from.

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06-12-2008, 07:23 PM
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The 30 day quotes are coming from the old CBA where college players could notify the team holding their rights that they were leaving school then the team had 30 days to sign them.

For me it's still not completely clear how the entire old CBA new CBA interaction has played out here. A recent article included this tidbit:

http://ww3.startribune.com/blogs/wil...d-in-the-wild/

Quote:
While Wheeler, who led Breck to a state title in 2004, could begin talking to teams June 1, he canít officially sign until July 1. Ö
This isn't a direct quote from Wheeler's agent but given the context of the article and quotes from Wheeler's agent in the article it's reasonable to believe the writer was using Wheeler's agent as the source of this statement.


Wheeler declared he was leaving school on May 9th. June 1st would be the day Wheeler's rights would expire under the new CBA. Whether the old or new CBA applied I would have expected he could sign before July 1st.



p.s. request this be merged into the previous Wheeler thread.

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06-14-2008, 01:38 PM
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agreed. i have no idea where july 1 is coming in to play here. i also still dont understand why he's not going back into the draft. i'm assuming there's an arbitration hearing decision re thelen that probably settles all this, any ideas how one could find that?

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