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Why did we stop forechecking?

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Old
02-01-2004, 02:39 PM
  #1
s7ark
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Why did we stop forechecking?

Ok,

I am just as angry as all of you about what happened last night. After we scored our 3rd goal we stopped forechecking and tried to go into some kind of defensive shell. This kills me. We got the lead playing one way, and then we stopped it completely.

WTF is Mac-T thinking? Oh and that switch the lines every shift philosophy has been working just great, keep it up. I mean come on Lowe! Even Hitchcock got fired when the stars weren't performing, and he won them a cup. Oh and please keep NOT playing Rita, I love it how we are going to squander away some more talent. Even if he can be a 3rd line checker who pots 15-20 goals... WE COULD REALLY USE THOSE GOAL RIGHT ABOUT NOW!!!!

Just wanted to rant.

Hey, the plus side to keeping Mac-T as our coach is we will likely get entered into the lottery for Ovechkin...

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02-01-2004, 02:43 PM
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Now they lost because Rita didn't play?

Wow.

This team played well for 59 minutes. They got contributions from Laraque and Pisani (both of whom had been playing well lately, so who do you pull out of the lineup the game after the Oilers played their best (heart, effort and physical-wise) game of the season.

Depending on how bad Izzy is hurt Rita should be in the next game.

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02-01-2004, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Now they lost because Rita didn't play?

Wow.

This team played well for 59 minutes. They got contributions from Laraque and Pisani (both of whom had been playing well lately, so who do you pull out of the lineup the game after the Oilers played their best (heart, effort and physical-wise) game of the season.

Depending on how bad Izzy is hurt Rita should be in the next game.
We lost because $3.9M and $3.45M, the two most expensive players on this team, failed to perform when the game was on the line.

 
Old
02-01-2004, 02:48 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Now they lost because Rita didn't play?

Wow.

This team played well for 59 minutes. They got contributions from Laraque and Pisani (both of whom had been playing well lately, so who do you pull out of the lineup the game after the Oilers played their best (heart, effort and physical-wise) game of the season.

Depending on how bad Izzy is hurt Rita should be in the next game.
Jesus, Dawgbone, didn't you get enough licks in against Rita in that last post? I didn't say we lost because Rita wasn't playing, I said we lost because Mac-T is a brutal coach. Not playing Rita is ONE way he has been brutal. Not that Rita is a saviour, but he is a change, and the fact that we have been losing and not changing anything with the team is pure insanity.

Lets see, this hasn't worked the last few months but lets just keep on trying...

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02-01-2004, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
Jesus, Dawgbone, didn't you get enough licks in against Rita in that last post? I didn't say we lost because Rita wasn't playing, I said we lost because Mac-T is a brutal coach. Not playing Rita is ONE way he has been brutal. Not that Rita is a saviour, but he is a change, and the fact that we have been losing and not changing anything with the team is pure insanity.

Lets see, this hasn't worked the last few months but lets just keep on trying...
Had the Oilers won last night, would you have complained that they didn't play Rita?

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02-01-2004, 04:30 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Had the Oilers won last night, would you have complained that they didn't play Rita?
Yup I complained they didn't play him against Chicago.

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02-01-2004, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
Yup I complained they didn't play him against Chicago.
So who would you have pulled out of both games to get him in there?

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02-01-2004, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
So who would you have pulled out of both games to get him in there?
The people in your corner to help you defend MacT is dwindling by the day...

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02-01-2004, 05:09 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Had the Oilers won last night, would you have complained that they didn't play Rita?
For all of you who still don't think MacT blindly plays favorites, explain to me:
Total Ice:21:53
Shifts: 31
PP Time: 2:22
SH Time:4:28
Even Strength Time: 15:03
-2 on the night....

Who do you think this savior is, the one who get pp time, sh time, the most shifts on the team and the most icetime for all forwards (and more ice time then everyone except Brewer & Ulanov)? The same guy who saw time in the last2 minutes of the game
C'mon guess?
...
...
...
...
Thats right Shawn Horcoff

If any of you know people who want to know whats wrong with the Oilers in a nutshell, please refer them to this post.

Dawgbone, I know we've gone round and round in cirlcles about this. But if Rita HAD taken horcoffs icetime tonight, what do you think the result would haven been?

EDIT: I've posted Horfoff's times last night in several different threads now, I apologize for the redundancy, but when I saw it i almost snapped


Last edited by Marconius: 02-01-2004 at 05:15 PM.
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02-01-2004, 05:19 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Now they lost because Rita didn't play?

Wow.

This team played well for 59 minutes. They got contributions from Laraque and Pisani (both of whom had been playing well lately, so who do you pull out of the lineup the game after the Oilers played their best (heart, effort and physical-wise) game of the season.

Depending on how bad Izzy is hurt Rita should be in the next game.
Don't even get me started on Laraque, anyone who jumps on the bandwagon now, I have to question their intelligence. Way to come through BG, the Oiler's definitely need that scoring touch now that we've all but been eliminated form the playoffs. The fact that you were in invisible for the first 50 games is meaningless, cause you're coming through now, and everyone knows the last 30 games in a worthless season is where you make you're mark as a big game player.
The only bright side I can see to this is that some fool GM sees BG's performance and overpays for playoff Laraque.

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02-01-2004, 05:22 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
The people in your corner to help you defend MacT is dwindling by the day...
That's a great answer to my question... and of course it's dwindling. If people blame Mac-T when the team is 10 games over .500, they'll certainly blame him more if the team is 4 games under .500. It isn't suprising. I mean everyone is in agreement that we have only had 5 or 6 players play well and make good decisions this season, but somehow the team is in 12th place because of Mac-T, not the other 15 players who aren't playing well.

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02-01-2004, 05:22 PM
  #12
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that is what sickens me the most, we now have a coach who obviously plays favorites and go ahead dawgbone flame me pal. im sick and tired of watching the oilers piss away good prospects like rita, while horcoff and pisani get premium ice time. what a joke.
the way it is looking mact wants a team full of pluggers, guys who might try hard every night but have stone hands. so what is the solution trade away all of our talented players. hemsky get outta here, brewer theres the door, rita we barely knew you,semenov well your russian get out,torres your scoring too many goals sit on the pine buddy.
you know what the worst part of this is, the dressing room atmosphere must be tense due to the icetime doled out to third line players. i dont give a sh@# if horcough or pisani are playing hard, your talented players must always get the premium ice time.

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02-01-2004, 05:23 PM
  #13
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perhaps those same players are tuning mact out dawgbone what do you suggest trade those particular players. are you really that asinine, cmon mact clone.

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02-01-2004, 07:44 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
For all of you who still don't think MacT blindly plays favorites, explain to me:
Total Ice:21:53
Shifts: 31
PP Time: 2:22
SH Time:4:28
Even Strength Time: 15:03
-2 on the night....

Who do you think this savior is, the one who get pp time, sh time, the most shifts on the team and the most icetime for all forwards (and more ice time then everyone except Brewer & Ulanov)? The same guy who saw time in the last2 minutes of the game
C'mon guess?
...
...
...
...
Thats right Shawn Horcoff

If any of you know people who want to know whats wrong with the Oilers in a nutshell, please refer them to this post.

Dawgbone, I know we've gone round and round in cirlcles about this. But if Rita HAD taken horcoffs icetime tonight, what do you think the result would haven been?

EDIT: I've posted Horfoff's times last night in several different threads now, I apologize for the redundancy, but when I saw it i almost snapped
Good stats Marconius. Didn't realize it was that much. My take on Horcoff is that he isn't the worst Oiler I've ever seen, but he is getting a crapload of icetime and I, like many of you, don't think he deserves it more than the next player. I mean, he doesn't derserve to sit on the bench or the PB, but does he deserve more icetime than say Stoll? I'm not so sure.

Maybe the Oilers are showcasing him for a trade, as a "throw in" for a bigger deal. I dunno.

On the subject of MacT, that's a tough one. I certainly won't accept the premise that he's the only one to blame for the way the season has gone to date. But as the coach, he has to accept part of the blame. The NHL today is all about systems and I think the Oilers have one of the weaker ones. Coaches like Julien in Mtl, Sutter in Cowtown, Trotz in Nashville and Lemaire in Minny have implemented systems that cater to the players they have. I mean, Nashville or Calgary have really good players but the team is not deep like Detroit or Philly. MacT and his coaching staff IMO have not put in place an effective system if any. We should look at that intead of saying they don't have a number 1 centre or inconsistent goaltending.

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Old
02-01-2004, 07:51 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
i dont give a sh@# if horcough or pisani are playing hard, your talented players must always get the premium ice time.
So by your account we should play all the talented players regardless of effort and work ethic it seems to me the Rag$ do this very thing tons of talent yet no drive or determination and you know they don't seem to be doing a whole lot better than us. Tons of talent+ no work ethic gets you the exactly the same thing as tons of hard work + no talent, what you need like all good teams is for everyone regardless of talent level going out and playing hard that is how championship teams are built and it starts at the ground floor, just like Mact is doing now. If your a star player and your not willing to give a consistant effort and work hard then you deserve to be benched, I totally don't get why you people are so moronic saying Mact is holding down our youth we have had a bunch of rookies come up and flourish under him, if they want more ice-time all they have to do is play well and work hard every shift and the earn more and more ice-time as the game goes on, Mact is never selfish about giving more ice-time to deserving players.

Average ice time for Horcoff: 16.14
Average ice time for Pisani: 12.24

So let's see if we have 4 lines and 60minute games then the average ice-time should be about 15 minutes each so Horcoff has slightly more than average and Pisani has a fairly decent amount less than average. The reason Horcoff is getting excess minutes is in no small part to weakness at the center position(which is Lowe's fault not Mactavish's) who would you prefer to give his ice-time to all of you Horcoff bashers? Stoll- the rookie? Bishai- fresh off the farm? Oates-old and slow? It seems to me he does not have a whole heck of a lot of options on who to play when the game is on the line. Just so you know both York and Reasoner regularly got more ice-time then Horcoff when they were healthy, I don't think it is reasonable to say MacT is favouring Horc when there is simply no better alternatives to play if we had a huge talent pool of York,Weight, and Marchant with Horcoff fetching more ice-time than any one of the three then you would have some justification for complaining and I would be right with you, but under current circumstances I am not in agreeance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
perhaps those same players are tuning mact out dawgbone what do you suggest trade those particular players. are you really that asinine, cmon mact clone.
How about you justify your opinions and have a good discussion with Dawgbone then maybe you can come at some sort of understanding or compromise, their is absolutely no reason to bash him if you want to be a jerk why don't you take it to some other place than HF.


Last edited by FacelessButcher: 02-01-2004 at 08:22 PM.
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02-01-2004, 08:10 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
So by your account we should play all the talented players regardless of effort and work ethic it seems to me the Rag$ do this very thing tons of talent yet no drive or determination and you know they don't seem to be doing a whole lot better than us. Tons of talent+ no work ethic gets you the exactly the same thing as tons of hard work + no talent, what you need like all good teams is for everyone regardless of talent level going out and playing hard that is how championship teams are built and it starts at the ground floor, just like Mact is doing now. If your a star player and your not willing to give a consistant effort and work hard then you deserve to be benched, I totally don't get why you people are so moronic saying Mact is holding down our youth we have had a bunch of rookies come up and flourish under him, if they want more ice-time all they have to do is play well and work hard every shift and the earn more and more ice-time as the game goes on, Mact is never selfish about giving more ice-time to deserving players.

Average ice time for Horcoff: 16.14
Average ice time for Pisani: 12.24

So let's see if we have 4 lines and 60minute games then the average ice-time should be about 15 minutes each so Horcoff has slightly more than average and Pisani has a fairly decent amount less than average. The reason Horcoff is getting excess minutes is in no small part to weakness at the center position(which is Lowe's fault not Mactavish's) who would you prefer to give his ice-time to all of you Horcoff bashers? Stoll- the rookie? Bishai- fresh off the farm? Oates-old and slow? It seems to me does not have a whole heck of a lot of options on who to play when the game is on the line. Just so you know both York and Reasoner regularly got more ice-time then Horcoff when they were healthy, I don't think it is reasonable to say MacT is favouring Horc when there is simply no better alternatives to play if we had a huge talent pool of York,Weight, and Reasoner and Horcoff had more ice-time than any of the three then you would have some justification for complaining and I would be right with you, but under current circumstances I am not.

How about you justify your opinions and have a good discussion with Dawgbone then maybe you can come at some sort of understanding or compromise, their is absolutely no reason to bash him if you want to be a jerk why don't you take it to some other place than HF.
Having played and followed hockey for a while now, during a 60 minute game there appears to be about 2 to 3 instances where a players pure skill is really utilized or needed. Its that one little mistake of a defenceman, one giveaway, one hack in front of the net. When that one moment occurs, who would you prefer to have in front of the opposing net? A plugger or someone with skill? A Shawn Horcoff type player or a Jani Rita type player? Horcoff does work hard, but his hockey limitations are painfully obvious. Same with Pisani. There are alot of talented floaters in this league, and they continue to be employed and sought after by other teams. Someone like that can float for an entire period, not be a glaring defesive liability, but at thesame time not contribute too much. The thing is, when that one moment of opportunity presents itself, these guys bury it. They leave the defensive aspect of the game to the defensive specialists.
Right now MacT is utilizing our lunch pail guys as his "go to" unit because he feels a kinship with them. He feels hard work can accomplish anything. That was his style of play. Higher end guys are getting the shaft.

Theres a shortage at center? The Oates experiment has failed badly? Then its up to Lowe to fix it. Simple as that.

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Old
02-01-2004, 08:38 PM
  #17
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thanks for the suggestion faceless and i was not asking for your opinion. kinda like it here so i will stick around, just to let you in on a little secret, im just raising his hackles and giving him a hard time.

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02-01-2004, 08:44 PM
  #18
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number two i already made my opinion known thank you very much. do i have facts no i dont but i do see a team that looks like it has quit on mact. i take it all with a grain of salt, if you dont like my opinion fine.
so you think if your 1st and 2nd line players are not playing well then the option is to give the 3rd and 4th lines more playing time. hhhhmm gee can you not see the problem there. i see a situation developing where your 1st and 2nd line players are quite angry creating animosity in the dressing room. there you have it.

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02-01-2004, 09:02 PM
  #19
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i get it now perhaps you want an average team faceless. tell us moronic horcoff bashers how it is better giving more icetime to guys who in reality are not that good. my reasoning behind this whole debate is that the team has not played a full sixty minutes in a long time, the pp sucks(yes simpson is responsible), why did mact have horcoff taking the faceoff last night instead of oates, why is hemsky playing on a defensive line,why is torres being benched when he leads the team in goals, why did mact play salo a couple of games ago when he was sick, and why does he consistently badger the officials all it does is get us more penalties. i could go on and on, but i could be writing for hours on end.
heres another thought on the matter, so oates is not playing well he sits. horcoff is playing well on the other hand and is rewarded more minutes. oates is a better faceoff man than horcoff is. with the game on the line does it make sense to put horcoff out who has not been great at all in faceoffs. this was a game the oilers should have won and particular bungle by mact cost the team the game. i dont care if oates has not played well, he should have been out there for that faceoff.
another way to look at it, what if this was the playoffs. you cannot honestly convince me you would be happier to see horcoff taking that faceoff than oates. no matter the situation you go with the guy that is the best on your team.
is it better if your team is down by one with two minutes to play to put on lets say moreau horcoff and pisani than say smyth york and dvorak. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm which line has a better chance to score.

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02-01-2004, 09:22 PM
  #20
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well i am off topic here the thread was on the forechecking so i wont bother with the other issues. sorry szark.

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02-01-2004, 10:13 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
thanks for the suggestion faceless and i was not asking for your opinion. kinda like it here so i will stick around, just to let you in on a little secret, im just raising his hackles and giving him a hard time.
First off I do not wish you to leave just to stop bashing people but if you and Dawgbone have a personal understanding fine by me. Sorry if I felt somehow inclined to voice my opinion being that this is a public forum where it seems virtually all we do is share opinions but when I have an opinion that differs from your I should just keep my mouth shout?- how silly of me :p (sarcasm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
do i have facts no i dont but i do see a team that looks like it has quit on mact.
I like facts personally as it adds much more validity to any claims or theorys you propose but how you think is best to post is your perogative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
so you think if your 1st and 2nd line players are not playing well then the option is to give the 3rd and 4th lines more playing time. hhhhmm gee can you not see the problem there. i see a situation developing where your 1st and 2nd line players are quite angry creating animosity in the dressing room. there you have it.
I think your hypothesis is reaching a little but yes I do feel those who are working the hardest and playing the best should get more ice-time even if it's at the expense of super talented players as Hemsky,Torres, etc. (if they are having an off night) and if the 4th line is not playing well I have no problem shortening the bench to the top 3 lines it's a two-way street, MacT is not the only coach who does this you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
i get it now perhaps you want an average team faceless. tell us moronic horcoff bashers how it is better giving more icetime to guys who in reality are not that good. my reasoning behind this whole debate is that the team has not played a full sixty minutes in a long time, the pp sucks(yes simpson is responsible), why did mact have horcoff taking the faceoff last night instead of oates, why is hemsky playing on a defensive line,why is torres being benched when he leads the team in goals, why did mact play salo a couple of games ago when he was sick, and why does he consistently badger the officials all it does is get us more penalties. i could go on and on, but i could be writing for hours on end.
heres another thought on the matter, so oates is not playing well he sits. horcoff is playing well on the other hand and is rewarded more minutes. oates is a better faceoff man than horcoff is. with the game on the line does it make sense to put horcoff out who has not been great at all in faceoffs. this was a game the oilers should have won and particular bungle by mact cost the team the game. i dont care if oates has not played well, he should have been out there for that faceoff.
another way to look at it, what if this was the playoffs. you cannot honestly convince me you would be happier to see horcoff taking that faceoff than oates. no matter the situation you go with the guy that is the best on your team.
is it better if your team is down by one with two minutes to play to put on lets say moreau horcoff and pisani than say smyth york and dvorak. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm which line has a better chance to score.
Since you personally directed this post I guess I have no choice but to give you an opinion . The main crux seems to be MacT giving Horc the faceoff at the end opposed to Oates, well Oates although fantastic at face-offs has poor defensive coverage and is consistently outmuscled by bigger,younger, and stronger players these are big reasons why you never see him taking a defensive zone face-off, let's say he loses the face-off would he close the distance on the point man(no he's to slow) and go down to block the shot(no he seems unwilling to sacrifice for the team) but Horcoff would do these things and can still hold his own against other forwards that is why he is the better choice, if Reasoner was healthy I guarantee it would be him on that face-off but as I said MacT has no better alternatives.

I'll answer the rest in point form for brevity's sake
-no it is not smart that MacT badgers the officials but is a common trait among people who are passionate about the game.
-Of course I don't want a mediocre team, would playing highly talented players who are giving little effort or just playing like crap on that particular night improve that, I think not
-Many players play some of their best games when they are sick MacT thought it was an important game so he put out his best clutch player, I don't think it was the wrong decision but once he realized Tommy was not gone get it done he should of pulled him earlier.
-yes our pp sucks and yes we are not playing 60 min.
-Hemsky is playing on a defensive line because he has not shown great chem with anyone on an offensive line this year and he needs strong defensive players to cover his defensive gaffes.
-When the game is on the line MacT always puts his best offensive players on, he's done that tons I remember last year no matter how bad of a game Smyth/Comrie/Carter had they would always be out when the game is on the line, I have a feeling your criticism may come from Mact putting on Horc as the 6th man when the goalie is pulled but you do realize he has the 6th highest pt. total on our team? Regardless of your feelings, he is also insurance to take the face-off if Oates or whoever is taking it gets kicked out.

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02-01-2004, 10:56 PM
  #22
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then our centre ice position is definitely a weakness, hopefully reasoner will come back soon. where is the logic of putting horcoff in instead of oates on the faceoff. by the way horcoff is easily pushed off the puck as well, anyways does it not make more sense for oates to take the faceoff. lets say oates wins that faceoff, the oilers will at least have a chance to clear the puck, oates can go to the bench and horcoff or moreau can come out then.
anyways once reasoner is back things will return to sense of normalcy.
next question for you if more than half of the team is not playing well, do you not think that perhaps they are tuning out their coach. i have read numerous posts that suggest more than half of the team are playing like crap. i doubt it is all due to just having a bad year. i also made this assessment due to the apathetic play from this team, try looking at their faces, i see a lot of frustration and at times boredom. seems to me mact lost this team a long time ago.

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Old
02-01-2004, 10:58 PM
  #23
hmminvisiblecola1279
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being passionate about the game is one thing, badgering officials to the point of getting penalties for it is another. no doubt the refs this year have been horrible but it does not the situation better by always saying WTF was that.

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Old
02-02-2004, 01:33 AM
  #24
Walsher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
The people in your corner to help you defend MacT is dwindling by the day...
I don't think they are - people who know hockey know that MacT is not the problem with this team.

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02-02-2004, 02:59 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
I don't think they are - people who know hockey know that MacT is not the problem with this team.
MacT is not a bad coach, far from it in fact. But his coaching style is not for this team IMO.

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