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Old
02-02-2004, 04:30 PM
  #26
Mr Sakich
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the two biggest needs for the org are a stud goalie and first line centre.

To get Ari Ohonen from Jersey, the oil trade Salo, Cross, and Oates to the Rangers for Blackburn. The rangers are in the market for a goalie and dman and Lindros could be done for the year. Then Blackburn is traded for Ari. The reason why Jersey does this is that they have to expose a goalie next year and they really like both Schawb and Brodeur. This delays the decision for two more years.

To get a top centre, smyth and smith are dealt to Tampa. Spectors said that Tampa is looking for a gritty winger and I still think there is issues between vinny and mngt. Value wise, the oil are getting screwed here but the age / contract issues even things out.

The option of smyth and smith to ott for spezza could be elevated if the leafs push them around again. At some point, Muckler must realize that his team is not tough enough to beat Philly, the leafs, and jersey in a row. The sens have a real shot at a cup this year and moving spezza is a similar deal to the iginla for neiwendike deal that propelled Dallas to the cup.


Last edited by Mr Sakich: 02-02-2004 at 04:36 PM.
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Old
02-02-2004, 04:53 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
The sens have a real shot at a cup this year and moving spezza is a similar deal to the iginla for neiwendike deal that propelled Dallas to the cup.
IMO that's not the greatest comparison. When Iginla was dealt, he was a 11th overall pick still in junior...Spezza is a 2nd overall pick who would be the Oilers' leading scorer right now if he were traded to them.

It's going to take a HELL of a lot to pry him out of Ottawa. Or at least it should.

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Old
02-02-2004, 05:16 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
IMO that's not the greatest comparison. When Iginla was dealt, he was a 11th overall pick still in junior...Spezza is a 2nd overall pick who would be the Oilers' leading scorer right now if he were traded to them.

It's going to take a HELL of a lot to pry him out of Ottawa. Or at least it should.
the reason I used Iggy is that when he was traded here, he was a stud propsect. Usually the salary dumps are for questionable guys but everyone in calgary was real happy because we all knew iggy was going to be great. I also used that as an example of a team giving up some future to win NOW. Maybe a better comparable is Brett Hull to STL. The flames knew they were trading a future 50 goal scorer but they won their only cup the year they did that deal.

As for spezza, he is allready great but he doesn't bring anything different to that org. ott is loaded with smooth skating skilled guys. what they lack are a couple of guys like smyth and smith. This trade would make them a better team right now. As for the future, they lose but if they win the cup, then it is a succesful deal, even if spezza is the next gretzky.

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02-02-2004, 05:19 PM
  #29
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Sakich,

That is a BRUTAL trade for Blackburn. But even if you could get it..

The Devils wouldn't take Blackburn for Ahonen. Blackburn is pretty seriously injured.

Spezza and Lecavalier are not going anywhere. And if they were, expect Hemsky to be going the other way.

I think people underrate York. He can fill in as the #1 centre. I see the need as a #2 centre. It's easier to address, takes less assets, and is quite a bit more realistic.

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Old
02-02-2004, 05:31 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Spezza and Lecavalier are not going anywhere. And if they were, expect Hemsky to be going the other way.
Thats what I keep thinking. Vince is a good hockey player, but he will never live up to the superstar aura he has around him. A quality point producer, but not a franchise player. Spezza may live up to the enormous hype, but probably will settle along the lines of Vincent's current point output. Still, both are seen as superstars in the making by their teams, and nothing short of a bad overpayment will land either of them.

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Old
02-02-2004, 06:22 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I think people underrate York. He can fill in as the #1 centre. I see the need as a #2 centre. It's easier to address, takes less assets, and is quite a bit more realistic.
Semantics at this point. The Oilers need "A" center... the definition of it really doesn't matter.

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Old
02-02-2004, 07:07 PM
  #32
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If I was ever a GM/Coach of a hockey team, I would wonder what the heck I did to get myself into that kind of position. Because as much as I like to think I'm well versed in terms of hockey, I know I would still be woefully underqualified. :p


Anyways... besides hiring someone who actually knew what he was doing...


1. It is imperative with the direction that this club must head is to find the correct "type" of coach in order to deal with this youth movement. It is certainly no secret that MacT enjoys playing his veterans - players that he can depend upon to get the job done. LT is bang on in that description that he is indeed more suited to a veteran laden club.

So at the end of the season, I would talk MacT into a buy-out. Though it would be expensive for this club to look for another coaching staff right away, I feel that the money would be well spent if a coach could be found to coincide with the direction of the team and the players on it.

I would actively pursue a coach with a long history of experience (I'm sick and tired of the Oilers hiring Simpson, MacT, and even Kevin Lowe with limited experience in their respective positions. I don't think we can afford to have him "learn on the job" at this point) I'm thinking perhaps a Brent Sutter (if he could be convinced), a Marc Habscheid, or an assistant coach around the league (I think there were some suggestions of Perry Pearn a while back). They have to... and I mean have to have a good track record with young players.

Leadership comes from management down... it's best to start there.

2. The most glaring sore spot for the Oilers is indeed the goaltending position. There is absolutely no possible way that Salo's extension is going to taken so it would be a definite issue in finding a goaltender that can possibly split duties with Ty Conklin.

Choice a) Mathieu Garon of the Montreal Canadiens

Choice b) Ari Ahonen of the Albany River Rats (New Jersey Devils)

Montreal seems a little weak on the left side... so I'm thinking a package centering along the lines of Chimera and a 2nd rounder. I might be way off base here though.

Ari Ahonen will need to be protected next season and Lou knows it. Ari isn't going to get a sniff at the net with Brodeur at the helm... so I would try and offer Jason Smith and a pick to try and pry Ari from the Devils. The Devils would have a monster defense for the playoffs should that trade happen to occur and it would give us a great goaltending prospect on the verge of making the pros.

3. The 2nd most glaring weakness on the team is, currently, the lack of NHL capable centers. On this team, Adam Oates has been MIA all season. Reasoner is out with an injury. York is out with an injury and he has been our best center - which is altogether a little sad considering he is more effective on the wing. Horcoff is now relegated to playing over 22 minutes a night... something he cannot do effectively. And Stoll is being relied upon to pick up some of the slack.

Not impressive.

I know that there is no freaking way I'm going to be able to swallow the asking price of a Spezza, Lecavalier, or even a Brad Richards... I'll talk to those teams but I seriously would not be expecting to get very far and rightfully so.

The only viable options at a somewhat reasonable price is likely a guy like Antoine Vermette or a Jamie Lundmark (if he was not injured). I would try and center Laraque + to get Antoine.

4. Defense. Oilers are stuck pretty much with what they have. It still hurts that so many of those players have such long-term contract situations. (eg. Staios and Cross) Two players who are not all that young with considerably minimal upside.

Ferguson is NOT resigned after this season. Like it or not... Brewer has to be resigned. Without Niinimaa here to bring down Brewer's icetime and contract demands, I have to go out and try to sign Brewer because he is the only one even remotely capable of handling 25 minutes.

Jason is obviously gone. That leaves the lineup with Brew/Semi/Staios/Cross/Ulanov/Lynch/Woywitka next season (assuming Ulanov signs cheap). Not altogether bad but I'm relying heavily on Lynch/Woywitka to perform.

5. Forwards. Pretty limited with what can occur here. Besides the center and whoever gets shipped out... there are not a whole lot of NHL ready players in the minors at the moment.

Smyth - Vermette - Hemsky
Torres - Oates/Stoll - Dvorak
Moreau - Horcoff - Pisani
Isbister - Stoll/Oates - Chimera/Rita *

* depending on who gets sent out to acquire the goaltender - Chimera/Smith. Should Smith be the one dealt Chimera moves to left wing giving Rita the right spot.

EDIT: Now that I look at it.. Isbister really needs to be dealt. There's just no room for him on the top 6 and at 1.8 million he certainly isn't going to in the bottom 6.
I'm no genius but that would be the gist of things for myself anyway.


Last edited by momentai: 02-02-2004 at 07:10 PM.
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Old
02-02-2004, 07:13 PM
  #33
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I don't know how much time I have to make this post...but I will get a start on it.

1. I have a meeting with Craig MacTavish. We agree on philosophy. Craig, you have to help me, by doing what I ask here. Make some lines and stick to them, give our young players simple instructions while trying to nuture their creativity. You have all of the faculties of a great coach, now act like it. I tell the media, that MacT is my guy. Bringing up his job security is a non starter because no matter how much the media whine, MacT is the guy. I tell MacT that we need to make some sort of agreement on personnel. Rita needs to play, Pisani does not for now. Give Rita a legitimate top 6/9 spot for the rest of the year so we can decide whether to offer him a contract or trade him.

I tell him to do as I say or I will have no choice or I will have to relieve him of his duties.

2. Address personnel issues.

Tommy Salo. Tommy Salo to the New York Rangers, or Colorado, or Philadelphia or whoever feels the need for a veteran goaltender for a playoff push/playoffs.

NYR---Adam Oates and Tommy Salo for Henrik Lundqvist and a 2nd. Adds to our prospect pot in goal, and he is a good one.

Attract one of the odd men out goalies. Brent Johnson, Martin Biron, Brian Boucher. It would have to depend on the return but let's say that Biron can be acquired for Chimera and a 2nd. (If he can't Johnson is only a draft choice.)

Then, you buck up. Make the big deal. M-A Pouliot, Phi 1st, Ryan Smyth for Vincent Lecavalier. If more is necessary I would consider including Jani Rita, much to MacT's chagrin.

Then, I look for my offensive blueliner that I need so badly. Doug Lynch to Pittsburgh for Dick Tarnstrom.

I sign Jason Smith like I did Steve Staios. Give him a raise and tell him he is worth every penny.

My line up...

Isbister-Lecavalier-Hemsky
Torres-York-Dvorak
Rita-Horcoff-Stoll
Moreau-Reasoner-Laraque
Pisani-Chimera---->Press Box(If Rita has to go in the Lecavalier deal, then Chimera gets his spot.)

Dick Tarnstrom-Steve Staios
Eric Brewer-Jason Smith
Igor Ulanov-Alexei Semenov
Cory Cross--->Press Box

Martin Biron
Ty Conklin/Lundqvist

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Old
02-02-2004, 07:26 PM
  #34
Mr Sakich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Sakich,

That is a BRUTAL trade for Blackburn. But even if you could get it..

The Devils wouldn't take Blackburn for Ahonen. Blackburn is pretty seriously injured.

.
lets see if I understand your criticism. Blackburn is such a good goalie that he is worth way more than one of the best short term veteran goalie options (best gaa and save % of the guys on the block in the last 15 games), a veteran dman with a great +/- (35th in the league amongst dmen despite playing for a team with a legit shot at a lottery pick) and currently 19th in goals scored by dmen, as well as one of the premier face-off guys in the history of the league (great playoff asset).

But on the other hand, Blackburn is useless and will never get you Ari because he is seriously injured?

Your analysis is BRUTAL

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Old
02-02-2004, 07:31 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
lets see if I understand your criticism. Blackburn is such a good goalie that he is worth way more than one of the best short term veteran goalie options (best gaa and save % of the guys on the block in the last 15 games), a veteran dman with a great +/- (35th in the league amongst dmen despite playing for a team with a legit shot at a lottery pick) and currently 19th in goals scored by dmen, as well as one of the premier face-off guys in the history of the league (great playoff asset).
IMO, that package wouldn't be enough by far. There's nothing in there except spare parts. Cross is nothing but a bottom pairing dman... he could be stretched into a #4 by that is all. Oates is on the downside of his career - faceoffs up to this point is all he has left. Salo, with the way he has played this season, would be lucky to receive a 2nd rounder equivalent to what Cechmanek received.

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Old
02-02-2004, 07:48 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
c & b, I agree with most of what you're saying. However, IMO the glaring lack of a dman that could man the PP point and carry the biscuit up the ice has been even more damaging to the PP than lack of an elite center. Bergeron has the tools, but he would get the yips whenever the puck got on his stick back there. Maybe next year he'll be better.
I've thought about that too. But to be honest, I like the look of defence (based on what I listed in my first post) even though they lack offensive talent.

The way I am looking at this is, based on this team, what can be done to get this team rolling without trading the guys that are here now and that I feel could contribute to a successful team.

For example if Lowe went out to try and get a young offensive D-man he likely ends up trading a guy like Smyth to do it. Well despite his struggles this year, Smyth is still a big part of the teams future in my eyes and getting rid of him to address an offensive defenceman would create a gap on LW that then becomes just as hard to fill. Just an example but the point is still there.

As far as getting points from the blueline on the PP, York did a decent job of it last year, unfortunately the team was so thin up the middle this year, they couldn't really use him on the point this season.

Also, I figure if they get a decent center that can control the half boards and most importantly knows when to shoot, then it should create a little more space and time for the guys that are currently back there.

I realize that it doesn't solve the problem completely but it would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
As for a goalie and center, all I can say is that it's one thing to identify the problem...it's a whole other matter to address the problem. The Oilers have had these issues for nearly two years now. Salo has struggled since that puck went off his head/rumoured personal problems (take your pick)...last year we didn't have a 2nd line center; this year we have no 1st line center. Yet here we are in february 2004, and Salo still has a sub-.900 save % and according to MacT:

"You analyse the losses, we played OK, but Tommy has been outplayed by the opposition's goaltender. It's tough to overcome that."

I know we were pretty much stuck with him sink or swim this year due to his contract, it's just unfortunate that he couldn't rebound like we hoped. No team will touch him now, he'll likely be gone with no assets coming back.
I agree, Salo was staying wether we wanted him to or not. I find it interesting that at the time Lowe signed him to the longterm extension, goalies were commanding rediculous amounts of money. Then suddenly the market seemed to get filled with young/good/inexpensive guys that made Tommy obsolete.

I really liked Salo as our goalie but it has come to the point where he will be addition by subtraction at the end of the season.

The thing that needs to me remebered through all of this is that just because the Oilers were struggling in goal this year and the standings reflect it, it doesn't mean that you trade a guy like Smyth because of it.

I still believe in the TEAM Lowe has assembled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
Two years ago many people were waiting expectedly for our Dopita/York 2nd line combo to work some magic and have instant chemistry...20-odd games later, Dopita was bought out. This year, Oates was brought out of the freezer and defrosted; unfortunately for us, he had freezer burn.
Obviously Lowe knows the importance of having a couple decent offensive centers because he brought in both Dopita and Oates to try and accomplish it.

When Dopita was brought, York was slotted as a LW. Then when Dopita left York actually stepped up and proved that they had two centers all along (Comrie obviously the other) then this year center wasn't supposed to be an issue. Size was a concern but talent wise it was going to be Comrie/York in the one two spot. Then the soap opera started.

Oates was brought in but didn't deliver. I don't think Lowe was anticipating that he would need to go find another center so quickly but I think he is fully aware of what he needs to do. I think he learned his lesson with Dopita and was forced to take a chance on Oates because of the situation. I would fullt expect that this time around he is much more careful with what he decides.

In a twisted way, the problem at center this year kinda helps long term. I am not sure that anyone would have anticipated that York was as capable at center as he seems to be, without the extra responsibilties he has been saddled with this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
This organization has my confidence when it comes to acquiring assets...addressing needs, that's another story.
As I tried to say, Salo was here whether Lowe wanted to move him or not but I fully expect there to be a change between the pipes next season.

I think he also knows what he needs at center as well but at least this year he has a little more time and experience to figure out WHO he needs.

I also think that this team can do well by getting a York calibre player as opposed to Lacavalier or Spezza.

To get a real high end talent, Lowe will need to move someone or some people that would ultimately just create another gap. I have also felt that teams that build around one key guy just set themselves up for a fall.

It always seems to happen that when a star arrives the team relies too much on the individual and once an injury occurs or the opposition manages to shut down the star then the team struggles as a whole.

If I was the GM, I would try and build 3 fairly equal threat lines (even if it means sacrificing a little top end talent) so that as a team everyone is pulling in the same direction.

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Old
02-02-2004, 07:53 PM
  #37
Mizral
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Momentai - I'm glad you agree regarding Isbister! The guy MUST be moved or else the Oilers will be going into next season with Marty Reasoner as their #2 centre, and that just does not bode well for next year.

Sakich - is Momentai's analysis brutal too?

The Rangers won't get much for Blackburn, but that doesn't mean they want to trade him either. Salo is waiver-wire material. How many times do I have to tell you? Nobody wants Salo. I'll bet you RIGHT NOW that if Salo is traded between now and the deadline, I'll put a 'Canucks Suck, Sedin's going nowhere' Avatar & sig for a week on the boards. And I mean traded for ANYTHING. Even futures. But if he isn't traded, you have to put a 'Canucks rule, Sedin's will be Superstars' Avatar & sig for a week on the boards. Capiche?

Cross might fetch a mid-round pick, nothing more. This is a guy the NEW YORK RANGERS deemed moveable. He's playing over his head in Edmonton, but he's nothing more than a #6 defenseman.

You're living in fantasy land on these ones.

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Old
02-02-2004, 09:02 PM
  #38
Mr Sakich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Momentai - I'm glad you agree regarding Isbister! The guy MUST be moved or else the Oilers will be going into next season with Marty Reasoner as their #2 centre, and that just does not bode well for next year.

Sakich - is Momentai's analysis brutal too?

The Rangers won't get much for Blackburn, but that doesn't mean they want to trade him either. Salo is waiver-wire material. How many times do I have to tell you? Nobody wants Salo. I'll bet you RIGHT NOW that if Salo is traded between now and the deadline, I'll put a 'Canucks Suck, Sedin's going nowhere' Avatar & sig for a week on the boards. And I mean traded for ANYTHING. Even futures. But if he isn't traded, you have to put a 'Canucks rule, Sedin's will be Superstars' Avatar & sig for a week on the boards. Capiche?

Cross might fetch a mid-round pick, nothing more. This is a guy the NEW YORK RANGERS deemed moveable. He's playing over his head in Edmonton, but he's nothing more than a #6 defenseman.

You're living in fantasy land on these ones.
you are on. I will also add "Mizral is a hockey God" if you add "Henrik's brother is ugly"

Cross is 35th out of 248 nhl dmen this year in +/-. Last year, he was 25th out of 253 dmen. The year before that, he was 47 out of 203 dmen in +/-, the year before that, he was 50th out of 206. The year before that, 27th out of 195 dmen. If he is playing over his head, then he has been doing it for a few years now.

As for living in a fantasy world, if I had over 11,000 posts on one internet forum, I wouldn't be acusing others of living in a fantasy world.


Last edited by Mr Sakich: 02-02-2004 at 10:05 PM.
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