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Old
02-02-2004, 01:35 AM
  #1
HOZ
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Sober thought

I see that cold reality has started to finally set in for fans on this board. It has certainly taken quite a while but I think people are finally waking to the fact that this is NOT a good team. When your top player is Mike York what did you expect? I think all those 90+ point season that MacTavish dragged this team too as made this lot quite spoiled. No one really understood how lucky they were! When I looked at this team at the beginning of the season (with a Comrie and a Salo playing well) I saw a 500 team. Without Comrie and Salo (technically for 30% of the season so far) they are 4 under 500 so they are living up to my expectations. Yes I want them to be better and would love a powerhouse team...but reality dictates otherwise for this season.

Just some thoughts on the Oilers:

KEVIN LOWE'S PLAN
- Have to say that it hasn't gone to well for him this year. Plan A, to go into this season with a young squad lead by a newly signed Comrie, in front of solid goaltending delivered by Salo, evaporated in a hurry. Plan B, for Oates comes in and settle the team down and provides some solid veteran influence on a young forward core, just hasn't materialised. I think he honestly felt that this team could make the playoffs but knew quite a few things had to go right for them to make it. Well things went ALL wrong.


COACHING
- The Oilers for the most part are a well coached team. I know this goes against the grain of the howls for MacTavish's head but looking at this squad the coaches are working with junk and trying to put together a F-1 car. The PK and PP are sore points for everyone. But I made the point before and the evidence has truly carried itself out is that the PK suffered from brutal goaltending. Once Salo got his act together the PK rolled to above 90%.

The PP: It seems everyone thinks this is all about putting the right guys on the ice with the right system to play and everything is solved. Well stick Forsberg on the ice he doesn't need a diagram to find the net!! Look at the crap the Oilers have to deal with. Oates: he had Kariaya last year and hardly made a dent on the PP. Now look who he is feeding!!!! Having a good system is great but you also need execution. Good execution comes from these things: Skill, speed, confidence, luck. Try to find which one the Oilers are lacking in.....give ya 3 seconds....tick, tick...


The TEAM
- This is a bad team folks. It was a bad team in September. When you bets player is Mike York you don't have a good team. One-third of these guys will not be in the NHl in 2-3 years. Another third will bounce around from team to team filling in. The other guys I have confidence will be very good players. If the CBA works in Edmonton's favor I relaly feel this team will shine.

PLAYERS
Brewer - MacTavish has brought him along beautifly. What you are seeing this season is Brewer being loaded with more responsibility and going through the inevitable ups and downs as he learns. Does anyone remember Pronger's early years? Honestly the wheels looked like they had fallen off for 3-4 years. I am not saying Brewer will be like Pronger but I am saying that Brewer will be one of the best in the league, very soon!
Smyth should be traded. At the draft table in an attempt to grab #1 overall. He has played like he wants out of Edmonton for 2 years now. He has had run ins with team mates and is now hurting the team with his selfish play.
RITA - Everyone want this guy called up. Yet remember, he couldn't make this sorry team at training camp. What make him so wonderful now? He reminds me of the season before they grabbed Bonsignore and Smyth. Boy did they suck. The Oilers had this real hotshot on the farm scoring 100+ points. Everyone, myself included, screamed for the Oilers to bring this guy up and input some offense onto the team. When they brought him up it really taught me a lesson about the difference between the AHL and the NHL. When he arrived there was no great increase in scoring or a big winning streak to take the Oiler into the playoffs. There was no doubt he was NHL material and that this guy was definitely better than anything the Oilers had at the time....in the pressbox. His name, Shaun Van Allen. Top scoring AHL'er ever. Who you say? Well the last I heard of him he was 4th line on the Senators. SO the point I am making...if the Oiler do bring Rita up...don't get your expectations so high.



Anyways guys, I hope the Oilers turn it around but I am not holding my breath.

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Old
02-02-2004, 02:10 AM
  #2
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What do you mean by the statement "when your best player is Mike York what do you expect." Is that a shot at York, because if it is you obviously haven't watched any games this year. This team is brutal right now but Mike York is definately not. He is better than Carter, Comrie, Arnott, or any of the other "stars this team has had lately. York is good offensively and even better in his own end. I find it funny how people come out when times get low and give it the old "I told you so" speech about how they always said the team was missing the playoffs and ripping all the players. This team has better players than lots of the teams in a playoff position. The fact that most of them have had off years at the most inopportune times is completely irrelevant to their overall value. This team should be playing better and they should be in a playoff position.

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02-02-2004, 02:22 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
What do you mean by the statement "when your best player is Mike York what do you expect." Is that a shot at York, because if it is you obviously haven't watched any games this year. This team is brutal right now but Mike York is definately not. He is better than Carter, Comrie, Arnott, or any of the other "stars this team has had lately. York is good offensively and even better in his own end. I find it funny how people come out when times get low and give it the old "I told you so" speech about how they always said the team was missing the playoffs and ripping all the players. This team has better players than lots of the teams in a playoff position. The fact that most of them have had off years at the most inopportune times is completely irrelevant to their overall value. This team should be playing better and they should be in a playoff position.
Thanks for missing the point

No, no, no and no.

No it wasn't a shot a Mike York. I think he is a fine player. But if he is your best player then your team isn't very good.

No, best players don't make the playoffs (NYR) best teams do (NJ). And to be a good team you need a lot more 'better' players than the Oilers have.

No I haven't just started to say this team wasn't good enough.

No I doubt very much that this team should be in the playoffs. They needed a lot of things to go right for them to be in the hunt this season and a whole whack of things have gone wrong.


Last edited by HOZ: 02-02-2004 at 05:21 AM.
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Old
02-02-2004, 02:39 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
No it wasn't a shot a Mike York. I think he is a fine player. But if he is your best player then your team isn't very good.
I see nothing wrong with York being our best player. Neither does Walsher, which was his point. Playing with a virtual rookie and a snake bitten Dvorak, York was on pace for 60+ points. He was also +14 on a minus team. Damn fine player in my opinion.

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02-02-2004, 03:22 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
I see nothing wrong with York being our best player. Neither does Walsher, which was his point. Playing with a virtual rookie and a snake bitten Dvorak, York was on pace for 60+ points. He was also +14 on a minus team. Damn fine player in my opinion.
Not sure if either of you understand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with York being the best player. Just expect your team to miss the playoffs if he is.

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02-02-2004, 03:30 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
Not sure if either of you understand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with York being the best player. Just expect your team to miss the playoffs if he is.
Last season, Mike York scored the game winning goal to get the Oilers into the playoffs, that was shortly after breaking his scaphoid bone. He has been the Oilers consistent bright spot this season. If the Oilers do miss the postseason, it won't be because Mike York is their best player. It's been a series of minor collapses that began shortly after the Heritage Classic. Not to mention, other than taking faceoffs, Oates has been a bust as well.

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02-02-2004, 03:40 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
Not sure if either of you understand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with York being the best player. Just expect your team to miss the playoffs if he is.
We understand what you're trying to say. What you don't undertsand is that when you say what you did, that IS a slight against York, even if you didn't mean it that way.

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02-02-2004, 03:49 AM
  #8
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Wow, Im pretty sure that I am understanding HOZ, but I do get the same feeling that he is, you are all missing his point. Mie York scored the goal that got the Oilers in to the playoffs last year.........good for him, good for the Oil. He is not trying to take anything away from York. York is a great player and he has made no indication that he thinks otherwise. I think the point he is trying to make is that while York is a great player, he is not an elite player, and it is much more difficult to make the playoffs without a Weight, Forseberg, Iginla, than when you do have one. I agree that York is a great player, but when he is your MVP then you dont have enough talent. York is an all around give it your all 2nd liner, or supporting 1st liner, but he is our best player in Edmonton and that is why we are in trouble. York is a player that should be the 3-5th best player on a team. He will always be important to his team but should never be the MVP, depsite being used in all situations.

Now I know that Oilers have snuck in to the playoffs last year without one of these types of stars, but I think we had *more* good players to carry the load than we did this year with Niins and Carter here most of the year, Smyth playing well, York, Dvo taking over for Carter, Comrie.

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02-02-2004, 03:52 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
We understand what you're trying to say. What you don't undertsand is that when you say what you did, that IS a slight against York, even if you didn't mean it that way.
If York and others are thinking that he is an elite player than I guess so. If not I fail to see how it is.

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02-02-2004, 03:54 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fincan
Wow, Im pretty sure that I am understanding HOZ, but I do get the same feeling that he is, you are all missing his point. Mie York scored the goal that got the Oilers in to the playoffs last year.........good for him, good for the Oil. He is not trying to take anything away from York. York is a great player and he has made no indication that he thinks otherwise. I think the point he is trying to make is that while York is a great player, he is not an elite player, and it is much more difficult to make the playoffs without a Weight, Forseberg, Iginla, than when you do have one. I agree that York is a great player, but when he is your MVP then you dont have enough talent. York is an all around give it your all 2nd liner, or supporting 1st liner, but he is our best player in Edmonton and that is why we are in trouble. York is a player that should be the 3-5th best player on a team. He will always be important to his team but should never be the MVP, depsite being used in all situations.

Now I know that Oilers have snuck in to the playoffs last year without one of these types of stars, but I think we had *more* good players to carry the load than we did this year with Niins and Carter here most of the year, Smyth playing well, York, Dvo taking over for Carter, Comrie.
I disagree 100%. Nashville is a playoff team and their best player isn't half the player York is. Mike York is doing what he is doing because he is a very good NHL player. You don't need a superstar to win a cup - Look at New Jersey, other than Brodeur their team doesn't have a dominant player. Mike York is so underrated it is funny. He has had better numbers in his first 4 seasons than Ryan Smyth - by a fairly wide margin, yet he still doesn't get credit. This is a shot at Mike York. He was the best player on the Oilers last year and he is this year. Nothings changed.

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02-02-2004, 04:17 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
I disagree 100%. Nashville is a playoff team and their best player isn't half the player York is. Mike York is doing what he is doing because he is a very good NHL player. You don't need a superstar to win a cup - Look at New Jersey, other than Brodeur their team doesn't have a dominant player. Mike York is so underrated it is funny. He has had better numbers in his first 4 seasons than Ryan Smyth - by a fairly wide margin, yet he still doesn't get credit. This is a shot at Mike York. He was the best player on the Oilers last year and he is this year. Nothings changed.
I didne say it is impossible to make the playoffs if a guy like York is your best player now did I. I said it makes it more difficult to do so. I did also mention that the Oilers did make the playoffs last year without a star. I also said that the Oilers had more of these really good players than they do now which is a huge different. I guess I should expand on what i mean though. Yeah Nashville does not have a star (although I disagree big time that Legwand isnt half the player York is) and they have a damn good shot at the playoffs. Yes the Oilers did it last year. But what they had is more players in this class. So I guess I should say that your team is in trouble if York is your MVP and you dont have enough other players who are in his class.

You wont win a cup with a team like that though. You need to have those star players to do that and if you dont you are in trouble. You bring up NJ and Brodeur like it is nothing. Other than Brodeur they dont ahve a dominant player? This is incomplete on so many levels. Having the worlds best goalie is a HUGE deal, not just a "they only have him statement." Then on top of that they have Stevens, Niedermayer, and Elias who are at least on Yorks level. Nieds is having a Norris type season so I would put him well above York. Then they have Madden, and Rafalski who may be or at least close to Yorks level.

I still agree with HOZ if York is your best player you are in trouble. your team will not be great. They may make the playoffs but it is unliekly they will do any damage there. He is a 3-5 guy, not a number 1. If he is your #1 youd better have a lot more Yorks in your aresnal which the Oilers dont, which is why we are most likely gonna miss the playoffs.

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02-02-2004, 04:26 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fincan
I didne say it is impossible to make the playoffs if a guy like York is your best player now did I.
The guy you are defending did say that.

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02-02-2004, 04:29 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fincan
If York and others are thinking that he is an elite player than I guess so. If not I fail to see how it is.
It's a matter of semantics. If you say "when York is your best player, your team is no good," the focus of what you are saying is that York is defecient, whether that was what Hoz intended to say or not.

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02-02-2004, 04:40 AM
  #14
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On a good contending team, Mike York is a 2nd liner, plain and simple.

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02-02-2004, 04:48 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
On a good contending team, Mike York is a 2nd liner, plain and simple.
Probably, but does your team suck if York's your best player?

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02-02-2004, 05:38 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
I disagree 100%. Nashville is a playoff team and their best player isn't half the player York is. Mike York is doing what he is doing because he is a very good NHL player. You don't need a superstar to win a cup - Look at New Jersey, other than Brodeur their team doesn't have a dominant player. Mike York is so underrated it is funny. He has had better numbers in his first 4 seasons than Ryan Smyth - by a fairly wide margin, yet he still doesn't get credit. This is a shot at Mike York. He was the best player on the Oilers last year and he is this year. Nothings changed.
Try and take the stick out of your posterior, will you please. Mike York is a fine player and if the Oilers had 6 more of him they would be a far better team than they are now. But I have yet to see Horcoff or Chimera morph into Mike York yet. Have you? Unfortunately there is only one Mike York. As much as I like the guy and the way he plays, if he is the best we got then we are a poor team. As such, that IS the case.

NOW....

Lets look at what you said. NJ only has Brodeur....Well that is a mouthful right there. The MOST important player is their Elite player. Their top 6 players are equal or superior to Mike York.

As for Nashville they are having a fine season and getting solid goaltending and are product of the crapolaness of the team below them. "In the playoffs" doesn't mean they are good, just better than the others. The WEST is full of crap teams.

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02-02-2004, 05:41 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by The Rage
Probably, but does your team suck if York's your best player?
The Oilers sure do. I am not sure how your are going to show that they don't suck.

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02-02-2004, 06:07 AM
  #18
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I sure hate it when I get to a thread and the whole argument has been made by both sides. I agree with HOZ and the veritable lurker fincan on this one.

Mike York is very good. He is not an elite player. For a team with Mike York as an MVP to make the playoffs, they need to have 4 more players of the same calibre to do it.

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02-02-2004, 06:11 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
The Oilers sure do. I am not sure how your are going to show that they don't suck.
Mike York's as good as anyone they've had since Weight left, and they didn't suck that entire time.

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02-02-2004, 06:33 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
Probably, but does your team suck if York's your best player?
Your team doesn't 'suck', but it probably won't go too far unless you have 6-8 guys at the same skill level.

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Old
02-02-2004, 06:40 AM
  #21
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Well, nobody I don't think, believes York is an elite NHLer. But to say "when York is your best player..... blah blah" you are being completely ignorant to the fact that the Wild made the playoffs last year in the same boat and that the Predators are probably or will have a damn good chance at it this year and that the Oilers have did it just last year as well. Is it hard/tough? Yes. Do you need more good players in that level to make it? yes. Do we have them? Yes. Have they played like it? No. Smyth, Isbister and Reasoner haven't helped the team as much as they would have if not for injury/new position/off year/bad luck, etc. Take a look at last years club compared to now. Our players up front are MUCH MUCH Better as all we've lost is Comrie Carter yet we've added Dvorak, Torres, Isbister. Dvorak>Comrie, Torres/Isbister=>Carter. Plus Hemsky, who hasn't played great, yet will still give us more points then we got last year.

So, CAN this team make the playoffs with York as their best player? You damn rights it can. Is it tough? Sures hell is.

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02-02-2004, 06:43 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Your team doesn't 'suck', but it probably won't go too far unless you have 6-8 guys at the same skill level.
When you say "go too far" I assume you mean win a round or two. Well, nobody has claimed that. Make the playoffs though? You damn rights you can, and you sures hell don't need 6-8 Mike Yorks to do so. The proof is in teams like the Predators and the Oilers and Wild last year.

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02-02-2004, 06:44 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
When you say "go too far" I assume you mean win a round or two. Well, nobody has claimed that. Make the playoffs though? You damn rights you can, and you sures hell don't need 6-8 Mike Yorks to do so. The proof is in teams like the Predators and the Oilers and Wild last year.
I was just clarifying a point that Rage asked me about.

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02-02-2004, 06:47 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
I was just clarifying a point that Rage asked me about.
Yes, I know you are, but your remark of needing 6-8 at the level of Mike York is folly, as there are lots of examples that state otherwise.

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02-02-2004, 06:50 AM
  #25
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Yes, I know you are, but your remark of needing 6-8 at the level of Mike York is folly, as there are lots of examples that state otherwise.
Um, no, because you're not getting what my point was about a team that didn't 'suck'

I happen to think Nashville sucks pretty bad.

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