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Old
03-11-2008, 04:23 AM
  #51
Erika
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inf4mous_1 View Post
We already have our big star player in Kovalev right now. He's aging however and it's fair to say that Andrei Kostitsyn is eventually going to replace him in the long run.

A.Kost has a terrific combination of speed, shot, vision and stickhandling. He also knows how to deke his way to the net and has that ability to become a very hard player to contain in one-on-one situations, just like Kovalev was. The set of tools he poccess is unmatched by any other player in our organization right now, he's the only one with "star" material IMO.

It's funny how people already see Sergei as being the better point producer of the two. He does not have the natural talent his older brother has. It's fair to say that he's going to be the more complete player, because he has more defensive awareness and plays better positional hockey, however, in terms of offensive prowess, Andrei is far ahead. The younger Kostitsyn can score goals too, no doubt, but he's not going to score the kind of goals his older brother can that makes the crowd go "wow".

Claiming that Sergei is a better passer or shooter than Andrei is not accurate either. The older brother is just as good, if not better in those departments. People tend to underestimate Andrei's passing abilities. The only claim we can make about Sergei being better than Andrei is that the younger Kostitsyn is more complete at the moment, playing a smart and safer hockey.

Bottom line, they play a very different game and are hard to compare.. I like both players and I don't see the point going into a "who is better" debate. The answer simply depends on what kind of player you like more.. in order words, "who you prefer".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hochelaga View Post
Totally agree with you my friend , I can see you know your Hockey.
It is really amazing how people think Sergei is better than his brother while hes obv not.Its not an opinion its a fact as far as im concerned.
And hes playing LW but hes a natural RW.Watch out when Kovy is gonna retire or A.Kos is gonna play RW on another line.
I can understand why people prefer sergei but talent-wise andrei is better.
You know whats good in all that? We have the 2
I think you guys don't realize that Hockey smarts >>>>> Pure technical skills
Because Hockey sense, vision, smarts, work ethic, etc. are also include in the player package skills when you talk about talent-wise. There's more than just pure technical skills for a hockey player.

Let's make a list of major aspects in hockey here to illustrate this example:

Shooting Arsenal: Andrei > Sergei
Passing skills: Andrei = Sergei
Skating speed: Andrei = Sergei
Grit: Andrei < Sergei
Hustling: Andrei < Sergei
Work Ethic: Andrei < Sergei
Leadership: Andrei < Sergei
Poise: Andrei < Sergei
Stickhandling: Andrei > Sergei
Agility: Andrei = Sergei
Size: Andrei > Sergei
Strength: Andrei > Sergei
Defensive Awareness: Andrei < Sergei
Offensive awareness: Andrei < Sergei
Goalscoring ability: Andrei > Sergei
Playmaking ability: Andrei < Sergei
Positionnal play: Andrei < Sergei
Anticipation: Andrei < Sergei

Overall Technical Skills: Andrei > Sergei
Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts: Andrei < Sergei

So in overall, Andrei Kostitsyn is better in the technical skills aspects, but what put Sergei clearly ahead of Andrei is his Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts and his work ethic. Everybody knows that Hockey smarts and work ethic are more important for a hockey player than Pure technical skills. For example, both have great passing skills, but Sergei has superior offensive vision that makes him the better playmaker, no doubt in my mind, because Passing skills =/ Playmaking ability, it's two different things. Also, Sergei's vision makes him understand the game better than Andrei, this is also one of the reason why Sergei has higher defensive awareness.

To conclude,

Andrei > Sergei ====> Technical Skills and Strenght
Sergei > Andrei ====> Everything else



Last edited by Erika: 03-11-2008 at 10:31 AM.
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Old
03-11-2008, 05:20 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiro View Post
I think you guys don't realize that Hockey smarts >>>>> Pure technical skills
Because Hockey sense, vision, smarts, work ethic, etc. are also include in the player package skills when you talk about talent-wise. There's more than just pure technical skills for a hockey player.

Let's make a list of major aspects in hockey here to illustrate this example:

Shooting Arsenal: Andrei > Sergei
Passing skills: Andrei = Sergei
Skating speed: Andrei = Sergei
Grit: Andrei < Sergei
Hustling: Andrei < Sergei
Work Ethic: Andrei < Sergei
Leadership: Andrei < Sergei
Poise: Andrei < Sergei
Stickhandling: Andrei > Sergei
Agility: Andrei = Sergei
Size: Andrei > Sergei
Strength: Andrei > Sergei
Defensive Awareness: Andrei < Sergei
Offensive awareness: Andrei < Sergei
Goalscoring ability: Andrei > Sergei
Playmaking ability: Andrei < Sergei
Positionnal play: Andrei < Sergei
Anticipation: Andrei < Sergei

Overall Technical Skills: Andrei > Sergei
Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts: Andrei < Sergei

So in overall, Andrei Kostitsyn is better in the technical skills aspects, but what put Sergei clearly ahead of Andrei is his Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts and his work ethic. Everybody knows that Hockey smarts and work ethic are more important for a hockey player than Pure technical skills. For example, both have great passing skills, but Sergei has superior offensive vision that makes him the better playmaker, no doubt in my mind, because Passing skills =/ Playmaking ability, it's two different things. Also, Sergei's vision makes him understand the game better than Andrei, this is also one of the reason why Sergei has higher defensive awareness.

To conclude,

Andrei > Sergei ====> Technical Skills and Strenght
Sergei < Andrei ====> Everything else

Hum.. Let me get this straight... After all that analysis, you came to the conclusion that Andrei is >> Sergei?

Andrei > Sergei & Sergei < Andrei --> Andredi >> Sergei?

I guess you wanted to say Sergei > Andrei ====> Everything else right?

I find funny that when I started this thread, I never thought it would turn out to be a thread about comparing the two Kostitsyn brothers...


Last edited by Kachino: 03-11-2008 at 05:59 AM.
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Old
03-11-2008, 05:49 AM
  #53
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Shooting Arsenal: Andrei > Sergei
Passing skills: Andrei = Sergei (Andrei is superior)
Skating speed: Andrei = Sergei (Andrei top end speed is superior)
Grit: Andrei < Sergei (I don't know what you are smoking)
Hustling: Andrei < Sergei (Andrei is far superior)
Work Ethic: Andrei < Sergei(What? Andrei is superior)
Leadership: Andrei < Sergei(Leadership? way to soon to call, I would give the nod to Andrei atm)
Poise: Andrei < Sergei(ok)
Stickhandling: Andrei > Sergei
Agility: Andrei = Sergei
Size: Andrei > Sergei
Strength: Andrei > Sergei
Defensive Awareness: Andrei < Sergei (This is correct.)
Offensive awareness: Andrei < Sergei (Crazy talk)
Goalscoring ability: Andrei > Sergei
Playmaking ability: Andrei < Sergei(Crazy talk)
Positionnal play: Andrei < Serge(Equal)
Anticipation: Andrei < Sergei (What?)

Overall Technical Skills: Andrei > Sergei
Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts: Andrei < Sergei(False)

You have nothing to teach with your evaluation. It's quite frankly crap. At least...

Pest : Sergei > Andrei

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Old
03-11-2008, 06:15 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Kosty Jr > Kosty Sr.

Also Price and Halak are both potential superstars.
I wasn'y saying AKost is the only superstar....I was reffering to those that think he's the only one who has potential to be great when most wanted him gone in october.

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03-11-2008, 10:32 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kachino82 View Post
Hum.. Let me get this straight... After all that analysis, you came to the conclusion that Andrei is >> Sergei?

Andrei > Sergei & Sergei < Andrei --> Andredi >> Sergei?

I guess you wanted to say Sergei > Andrei ====> Everything else right?

I find funny that when I started this thread, I never thought it would turn out to be a thread about comparing the two Kostitsyn brothers...

lol, I fixed it. It's Sergei > Andrei ====> Everything else

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03-11-2008, 10:35 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Shooting Arsenal: Andrei > Sergei
Passing skills: Andrei = Sergei (Andrei is superior)
Skating speed: Andrei = Sergei (Andrei top end speed is superior)
Grit: Andrei < Sergei (I don't know what you are smoking)
Hustling: Andrei < Sergei (Andrei is far superior)
Work Ethic: Andrei < Sergei(What? Andrei is superior)
Leadership: Andrei < Sergei(Leadership? way to soon to call, I would give the nod to Andrei atm)
Poise: Andrei < Sergei(ok)
Stickhandling: Andrei > Sergei
Agility: Andrei = Sergei
Size: Andrei > Sergei
Strength: Andrei > Sergei
Defensive Awareness: Andrei < Sergei (This is correct.)
Offensive awareness: Andrei < Sergei (Crazy talk)
Goalscoring ability: Andrei > Sergei
Playmaking ability: Andrei < Sergei(Crazy talk)
Positionnal play: Andrei < Serge(Equal)
Anticipation: Andrei < Sergei (What?)

Overall Technical Skills: Andrei > Sergei
Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts: Andrei < Sergei(False)

You have nothing to teach with your evaluation. It's quite frankly crap. At least...

Pest : Sergei > Andrei
You clearly don't watch the games sorry. To say for example that Andrei has better work ethic or grit than Sergei is just admitting that you dont' have a clue about evaluating a player

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03-11-2008, 10:51 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by vampiro View Post
You clearly don't watch the games sorry. To say for example that Andrei has better work ethic or grit than Sergei is just admitting that you dont' have a clue about evaluating a player
Really? Or you have yet another episode of newkidontheblockism?

Newer players always have to be better in all aspects right?

I guess we are not watching the same games. I see a 20 years old guy with an insane attitude, never backs down, opportunistic and clever. But Andrei is still the superior breed of skill, grit, strength and mostly every single aspect of evaluation but defensive awareness. Andrei is much closer to being a star than Sergei is. I'm not talking about their upside, they are similar, but Andrei is 2 years further down the path and it shows in every evaluation points. It's easy to become over enthusiastic about a young player by letting your upside evaluation dominate your "present" evaluation.


Last edited by SOLR: 03-11-2008 at 01:22 PM.
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03-11-2008, 10:58 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hochelaga View Post
Its not an opinion im saying , Andrei have the better shot and BY FAR.
Please look more closely before saying some stuff like that.

Also , the passing abilities of Andrei is underrated.

And Andrei is simply a better player than his younger brother but I can understand some people like Sergei the most.

But it is truly easy to see Andrei is better , its not an opinion or anything , just a fact.

ALSO , DONT FORGET ANDREI IS NOT PLAYING IN HIS POSITION ( RW )

Put him RW and youll see a superstar very soon.

Andrei is better than Sergei but Sergei is very good too.

But people saying Sergei will make 100 pts are too optimistic , people sayingAndrei could hit 100 pts are more realistic.
That's your opinion.. Why is it optimistic to think at 20 year old scoring at a great pace and producing great hockey with two struggling (semi-struggling) players in Higgins and Koivu.. where-as Kostitsyn may not be playing his good wing, but he's getting a good ride with the teams best two forwards.

Kostitsyn Jr is miles ahead of Andrei in terms of adaptation to the North American game because he came over earlier.. he's at the same level as his brother already.. and producing at the NHL level with limited ice-time.

Sergei has a production rate about 5 minutes less than Andrei playing on a far worse line.

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03-11-2008, 10:59 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
That's your opinion.. Why is it optimistic to think at 20 year old scoring at a great pace and producing great hockey with two struggling (semi-struggling) players in Higgins and Koivu.. where-as Kostitsyn may not be playing his good wing, but he's getting a good ride with the teams best two forwards.

Kostitsyn Jr is miles ahead of Andrei in terms of adaptation to the North American game because he came over earlier.. he's at the same level as his brother already.. and producing at the NHL level with limited ice-time.

Sergei has a production rate about 5 minutes less than Andrei playing on a far worse line.
Billy is not more adapted right now, hes more adapted for his age. (Granted)

Andrei is a big part of Plekanec and Kovalev production, theres not one element on this line leeching from the others.

It's like saying Brisebois can only still play in the NHL because of Hamrlik.


Last edited by SOLR: 03-11-2008 at 01:23 PM.
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03-11-2008, 11:01 AM
  #60
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Seriously.. how can you argue that Plekanec & Kovalev aren't the two best forwards on the team this year??


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03-11-2008, 11:06 AM
  #61
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Why do you think Carbo doesnt want to use Andrei to jump start Saku and Higgins? Because Andrei isnt optional to Pleky's and Kovalev success, hes a big part of it.

I love what I see from both of them, even more so when they play together.


Last edited by SOLR: 03-11-2008 at 01:24 PM.
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03-11-2008, 01:09 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Seriously.. how can you argue that Plekanec & Kovalev aren't the two best forwards on the team this year?
That's not what we're arguing.

What we're saying is that Pleks, Kovalev AND AK are the three best forwards on the team this year.

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03-11-2008, 01:20 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD View Post
That's not what we're arguing.

What we're saying is that Pleks, Kovalev AND AK are the three best forwards on the team this year.
I'd say Higgins is pretty close to AK.

And SK would have about the same amount of PTS as AK if he played the whole season.

AK is great, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that while he's going to be great (not as good as SK, IMO) he is playing with the best two forwards on the team and his stats may be inflated a bit... or not. Who knows.

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03-11-2008, 01:39 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I'd say Higgins is pretty close to AK.

And SK would have about the same amount of PTS as AK if he played the whole season.

AK is great, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that while he's going to be great (not as good as SK, IMO) he is playing with the best two forwards on the team and his stats may be inflated a bit... or not. Who knows.
1) Higgins is not close to AK imo. Not this version of Higgins anyway.
2) Thats not really true, AK first 13 games this year he was barely used by the coaching staff, the PPG rate is much different when this is taken into account.
3) AK will always be the biggest "engine" of the 2, hes the one with a skillset that could become dominating on its own. When Sergei will be more mature I expect him to outhink the other teams rather than overpower them(something he cant do like Andrei). Sergei could produce more points even if Andrei is the better player, the game breaker. I don't know if you noticed who got the best chances against Anaheim, but theres only 2 names(Andrei and Kovalev) and it's not the first time. IMO Plekanec's and Kovalev stats are the ones inflated by Andrei, not the other way around. He could do it with Koivu and Higgins as well, hes a treat on any line.

Is this the masterplan?

Paccioretty - Plekanec - Kovalev/UFA/08 Draft for the future)
SK - Maxwell - AK
Higgins-Grabovski-D'Agostini
Latendresse-Chipchura-Lapierre

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03-11-2008, 01:40 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post

AK is great, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that while he's going to be great (not as good as SK, IMO) he is playing with the best two forwards on the team and his stats may be inflated a bit... or not. Who knows.
dude , do you followed the season?
The only reason A.Kostitsyn stats are not so good is because he was not playing with plek and kovy at the beginning of the season and in november he was again adaptating to the NHL and then he finally find himself and since then hes been explosive.

Watch the andrei stats since sergei is there if you can find that and youll see.

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03-11-2008, 01:41 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
1) Higgins is not close to AK imo. Not this version of Higgins anyway.
2) Thats not really true, AK first 13 games this year he was barely used by the coaching staff, the PPG rate is much different when this is taken into account.
3) AK will always be the biggest "engine" of the 2, hes the one with a skillset that could become dominating on its own. When Sergei will be more mature I expect him to outhink the other teams rather than overpower them(something he cant do like Andrei). Sergei could produce more points even if Andrei is the better player, the game breaker. I don't know if you noticed who got the best chances against Anaheim, but theres only 1 name(Andrei) and it's not the first time. IMO Plekanec's and Kovalev stats are the ones inflated by Andrei, not the other way around. He could do it with Koivu and Higgins as well, hes a treat on any line.

Is this the masterplan?

Paccioretty - Plekanec - Kovalev/UFA/08 Draft for the future)
SK - Maxwell - AK
Higgins-Grabovski-D'Agostini
Latendresse-Chipchura-Lapierre
I just want to point out what you said about A. Kost against the Ducks. He was easily our best player, offensively he was the only one getting in and making Giguere move. Sure Kovalev shot a lot, but he didn't get Giguere moving.

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03-11-2008, 01:49 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I just want to point out what you said about A. Kost against the Ducks. He was easily our best player, offensively he was the only one getting in and making Giguere move. Sure Kovalev shot a lot, but he didn't get Giguere moving.
I changed it to include Kovalev, but yes, it's my overall impression that AK was our best forward.

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03-11-2008, 02:39 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by kachino82 View Post
Last example: S. Kostitsyn is a great stick handler and very creative with the puck. He can either finish or set-up plays. Probably going to finish with 25 pts in 50 games. He reminds me a lot of Pavel Datsyuk.
Montreal fans on these boards are widely known for grossly - laughably - over rating their players, but this stuff with Sergei Kostitsyn has gone to a whole other level.

Recently, on his very board, the vast majority of posters picked Sergei Kostitsyn to be a better prospect/player then Chris Higgins.

That is laughably absurd. It amazes me that people who claim to be fans - who you would assume watch all the games - would actually think that Sergei will be a superior player to Chris Higgins. It's not even close.

Now I open this thread to find you comparing Sergei to Pavel Datsyuk.

Have you watched Datsyuk play? Do you understand the toolset he possesses as a player? Your remarks are truly laughable.

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03-11-2008, 02:40 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hochelaga View Post
dude , do you followed the season?
The only reason A.Kostitsyn stats are not so good is because he was not playing with plek and kovy at the beginning of the season and in november he was again adaptating to the NHL and then he finally find himself and since then hes been explosive.

Watch the andrei stats since sergei is there if you can find that and youll see.
I'm not putting down or trying to take away from AK's game. He's fantastic.

But Sergei has had some horrible line-mates but he still produced / played productively. (Latendresse, Lapierre, among others).

I just think Sergei is not only a more complete player, but he'll score more PTS per season.

SK is two years younger and if had played the entire season we'd have him at about;

20 goals, 25 assists for 45 PTS, maybe more.

AK is on pace for;
25 goals, 28 assists for 53 PTS.

AK is scoring at a 0.59 PPG career pace at this moment. SK is already at 0.53 PPG as a rookie.

It's pretty fair, IMO, to believe that SK could be better. If not, they'll be on the same page.. no way will AK be a god compared to SK like some people are posting here.


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03-11-2008, 02:44 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Recently, on his very board, the vast majority of posters picked Sergei Kostitsyn to be a better prospect/player then Chris Higgins.

That is laughably absurd. It amazes me that people who claim to be fans - who you would assume watch all the games - would actually think that Sergei will be a superior player to Chris Higgins. It's not even close.
Why is this absurd? I'm a huge Christopher Higgins fan but SK has more natural talent then Higgins. SK is also gritty and loves to play the body. He'll dig for the puck and he'll fight if he has too. Higgins can do all that too.

As a rookie Higgins scored about 0.47 PPG while SK is producing at 0.53 PPG as a rookie. SK is also a year (or two) younger than when Higgins joined the NHL. Higgins PPG rate is about 0.56 now career wise. Higgins is at 0.61 PPG this year.

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03-11-2008, 03:01 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Montreal fans on these boards are widely known for grossly - laughably - over rating their players, but this stuff with Sergei Kostitsyn has gone to a whole other level.

Recently, on his very board, the vast majority of posters picked Sergei Kostitsyn to be a better prospect/player then Chris Higgins.

That is laughably absurd. It amazes me that people who claim to be fans - who you would assume watch all the games - would actually think that Sergei will be a superior player to Chris Higgins. It's not even close.
Now I open this thread to find you comparing Sergei to Pavel Datsyuk.

Have you watched Datsyuk play? Do you understand the toolset he possesses as a player? Your remarks are truly laughable.
This is the kind of comment that makes me hate Christopher Higgins even more !!
I mean the guy is the most ridiculously overrated in this board

Higgins better than Sergei Kostitsyn ?! In some people dreams maybe...

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03-11-2008, 03:05 PM
  #72
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I think playing with two linemates with good shots would help Sergei Kostitsyn rack up the points as well. He's got an outstanding vision, better or as good as anyone on the team. This is what will separate him from most players, his ability to make others better. He's also impressive in the offensive zone, for a guy his age, its nice to see how many good decisions he makes.

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03-11-2008, 03:05 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by vampiro View Post
This is the kind of comment that makes me hate Christopher Higgins even more !!
I mean the guy is the most ridiculously overrated in this board

Higgins better than Sergei Kostitsyn ?! In some people dreams maybe...
Right now, if neither player was going to get better, Higgins is the best.

In terms of potential, I think SK is the best.

Higgins is either over-rated or bashed/under-rated on this board.

I mean, right now for example, Higgins is getting eaten alive by people. Over his last 7 GP, he's scored 6 PTS, 2 PIM, and +/- of 0.

He's doing just fine. Hell, if he scored on that pace all season he'd hit 70 PTS. That's just fine with me.

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Old
03-11-2008, 03:08 PM
  #74
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiro View Post

Shooting Arsenal: Andrei > Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Passing skills: Andrei = Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Skating speed: Andrei = Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Grit: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Hustling: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Work Ethic: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Leadership: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Poise: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Stickhandling: Andrei > Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Agility: Andrei = Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Size: Andrei > Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Strength: Andrei > Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Defensive Awareness: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Offensive awareness: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Goalscoring ability: Andrei > Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Playmaking ability: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Positionnal play: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Anticipation: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin

Overall Technical Skills: Andrei > Sergei <<<< Perezhogin
Overall Hockey hockey sense and smarts: Andrei < Sergei <<<< Perezhogin


Fixed.

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Old
03-11-2008, 03:10 PM
  #75
One Man Rock Band
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Fixed.
Thank god I know you're never serious.

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