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Old
03-16-2008, 10:23 AM
  #1
TaketheCannoli
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How much trouble are we in?

I'm beginning to get worried about the Jackets ability to survive, at least in Columbus. The team is much improved, but not a winner and seems a good way away from being a true cup contender. Ticket sales are clearly slipping, I go to almost every game- 40+ per year. The stands get less and less full each year. Then the team management sends the renewal letter with a clear statement that to get playoff tickets, season ticket holders must renew first. There apparently was a huge backlash. A new letter was sent this weekend to season ticketholders saying essentially, nevermind- if you want playoff tickets, it's not necessary to renew. What playoffs?

I understand 70% of NHL revenues are from ticket sales. I have spoken with a number of people who did not renew by the March 14th deadline, and many have said they don't plan to renew.

On another front, the Jackets have some great young players: Nash, Nicki and LeClaire. I have to believe they will reach a point soon where they want a cup, and if they don't see it happening here, will go somewhere they believe they can win one.

I believe promises of improvement, deals that will improve the team in 2011-12 and spending way below the cap limit will not bring the fans back. I understand this board has a lot of great posters who might believe the fans who might not renew are not "important" fans, not diehards. If the Jackets have to rely on diehards that can afford season tickets, there will soon be a few thousand at home games.

Once that happens, are they gone?? Can this team be saved?

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03-16-2008, 10:48 AM
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I don't want to think about it, but its always in the back of my mind. For what its worth, I believe JMac JR is heir apparent to take over the team, I can only hope he is steadfast in his resolve to not ever move this team.

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03-16-2008, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by contingent_23 View Post
I don't want to think about it, but its always in the back of my mind. For what its worth, I believe JMac JR is heir apparent to take over the team, I can only hope he is steadfast in his resolve to not ever move this team.
Should they ever think about it, they should consider this:
what other city would give them greater attendance after seven years of losing with little more than promises and prospects in sight?!?
I cannot think of one.

That said, yeah, I think about it. This summer is critical for the future of this organization in Columbus.

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03-16-2008, 11:09 AM
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leesmith- If the fans keep leaving and the team keeps losing money.....

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03-16-2008, 11:11 AM
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leesmith- If the fans keep leaving and the team keeps losing money.....
You gotta spend money to make money.

105,000 every Saturday prove that if you are committed to being a winner in Columbus, the fans will come. Several minor league teams in our past (and one other major league team in our present) also prove that if you want to run yourself like a busch league organization, the fans will not.

Frankly, we're not all that different than any other major league city.

Lastly, Mr. Mac bought the franchise for $80 million. He's only lost a small amount of money two seasons plus the lockout. The club is currently valued over $150 million. That's losing money?!?


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03-16-2008, 11:33 AM
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The package timing couldn't have been worse, while this team was in a "swoon " cycle. Our first playoff run is definately going very lame, not exciting as it should be. Is this team snakebit, maybe? Bandwagon fans were starting to climb on board till we fell on our face at the end of the ASB. Then they quickly lost interest. The renewal package is normally not due till at end of April. Quite the "surprise" for their loyal fans how this was handled. As a day one PSL holder and fan who has yet to renew this team could well be in trouble. We have seen so many teams rise and fall and rise again during our 8 yrs that it goes way beyond disappointment. This team is so in desperate need for success, something to get fans excited again. People love a winner and this franchise had better deliver, and deliver quicker than 2011-2012.

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03-16-2008, 11:39 AM
  #7
TaketheCannoli
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
You gotta spend money to make money.

The club is currently valued over $150 million. That's losing money?!?
Aye, there's the rub. This team has no history of spending money to make money. It has a history of overselling to the fans to attempt to make money.

As far as the team's valuation, it's worth $150m if someone writes that check. I can imagine that happening if it involves a move to someplace else, perhaps Hamilton or Kansas City?

Frankly, the only salvation is to actually spend close to the cap if that's what it takes to duplicate the success of that team that draws 105,000 every week. They draw that number for several reasons:

Tradition- it's a way of life here.

Success- While there have been some "less successful stretches", none have approached the results the Jackets have acheived to this point. In BAD years, they were .500 a couple times. If you count OT/SO losses, this team has never been above .500.

Excellence- that program is one of the 5 or so best programs in there sport. We aren't the Canadiens, Red Wings, Bruins or Rangers, it will take a lot of winning to create that record of excellence.

I submitted my renewal, many people I know didn't. I love going to see the Jackets, I'll probably keep renewing as long as I can afford the $6,000 + and as long as we have a team. I just wish we had better answers and better reasons to believe in the ownership and management. The latest mis-steps with renewals angered a lot of ticket holders, and the constant apologies make them look desperate. My buddy even told me he would bet me he could wait to renew until pre-season and they would take his money and not take his PSLs. Another told me the Jackets agreed to back out his pre-season tickets and trade them for extra regular season tickets.
They are flexible, but that type of flexibility speaks to a team that can't sell enough seats.

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03-16-2008, 11:44 AM
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The team needs more cannon and more tradition. We should fire the cannon at every stoppage in play. We need to make our advertisements look more antique, and we need to use the civil war theme more.

It's worked wonders for attendance this year...

right?

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03-16-2008, 11:45 AM
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I hear you 100% loud and clear, leek - I'm worried about this team's future here in Columbus. Sports fans in this town hate losers - and they hate losers who don't even TRY to get better even more. As I said in the other thread - I won't be back as a CBJ fan after next year if:

1. This team doesn't land at least 2 big-time acquisitions this summer
2. This team doesn't make the playoffs next season

And I don't think I'm alone among the CBJ fanbase. Not even close.

And yes, I did see the Dispatch article this morning about the Jackets' plans this summer. I'll believe it when I see it. We always hear that the Jackets are going to be "players" in the offseason. It's one thing to talk about spending money (i.e. Richards), but actually getting the deal done is another matter. Players aren't going to magically appear on our roster - it will take some work to get what we want.

I'll be watching intently.

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03-16-2008, 11:46 AM
  #10
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Here's something to consider--the Jackets have a lease for Nationwide Arena. What are the terms of that lease? I don't know, but I've been told it is much more difficult for the Jackets to get out of that lease than it would be for Nashville to get out of its lease, for example.

The penalty for early termination of the Nationwide Arena lease may be especially heft since it was privately built as opposed to being built with public funds--if the Jackets leave, its the private entities that foot the bill for the Arena who will want their debt service payments back since there isn't tax revenue supporting it.

Bottom line--its not out of the realm of possibility that the team moves at some point if the owners (or a new owner) wants to get greedy and maximize their revenues (even though they aren't truly "losing" money), but it would be more complicated than the Baltimore Colts leaving in the middle of the night in Mayflower trucks.

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03-16-2008, 11:59 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Aye, there's the rub. This team has no history of spending money to make money. It has a history of overselling to the fans to attempt to make money.
New York Yankees or Kansas City Royals? Boston Red Sox or Florida Marlins? Manchester United or Manchester City? Andretti Green or Roth Racing? Los Angeles Lakers or Los Angeles Clippers? In sports with salary caps, the teams that are successful year after year are usually closer to the salary cap than the salary floor. Dallas Cowboys or Cincinnati Bengals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
As far as the team's valuation, it's worth $150m if someone writes that check. I can imagine that happening if it involves a move to someplace else, perhaps Hamilton or Kansas City?
Or more likely, a realization that bringing a championship organization to an underserved sports market is a recipe for big success. What will they find in Kansas City or Las Vegas that they don't have here in Columbus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
Frankly, the only salvation is to actually spend close to the cap if that's what it takes to duplicate the success of that team that draws 105,000 every week. They draw that number for several reasons:

Tradition- it's a way of life here.

Success- While there have been some "less successful stretches", none have approached the results the Jackets have acheived to this point. In BAD years, they were .500 a couple times. If you count OT/SO losses, this team has never been above .500.

Excellence- that program is one of the 5 or so best programs in there sport. We aren't the Canadiens, Red Wings, Bruins or Rangers, it will take a lot of winning to create that record of excellence.

So let's get started building a tradition of success and excellence. We don't need 105,000, we only need ONE-FIFTH that amount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
I submitted my renewal, many people I know didn't. I love going to see the Jackets, I'll probably keep renewing as long as I can afford the $6,000 + and as long as we have a team. I just wish we had better answers and better reasons to believe in the ownership and management. The latest mis-steps with renewals angered a lot of ticket holders, and the constant apologies make them look desperate. My buddy even told me he would bet me he could wait to renew until pre-season and they would take his money and not take his PSLs. Another told me the Jackets agreed to back out his pre-season tickets and trade them for extra regular season tickets.
They are flexible, but that type of flexibility speaks to a team that can't sell enough seats.
It's more fun to see your team win 6-3 than lose 6-3. Bring the fun and you'll bring in the fans. The fact that our attendance is as good as it is with a product this bad says a lot for the hockey fans in Columbus.


Last edited by leesmith: 03-16-2008 at 12:07 PM.
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03-16-2008, 12:05 PM
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I may be the last one standing in Nationwide as I'll never give up on this team but if they don't do something big this offseason to give Hitch a legit lineup to work with then yeah, this franchise could be in for a world of hurt.

It really ticks me off too as just about every ounce of goodwill from what was a very strong and forgiving fanbase has been completely pissed away and you can't blame the fans for that.

..and whatever dumbass made that decision to extort season ticket holders for what was even then a very boarderline playoff team should be ****-canned. If anything, the season ticket holders should be given free playoff tickets to the first game for hanging around so long.

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03-16-2008, 12:10 PM
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TaketheCannoli
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Topshelf- i couldn't agree more.
Problem is people who will be the last one standing is a very small crowd. To succeed they need the bandwagon fans, die hard fans and have to find a way to create new fans that have never seen a hockey game.

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03-16-2008, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Topshelf- i couldn't agree more.
Problem is people who will be the last one standing is a very small crowd. To succeed they need the bandwagon fans, die hard fans and have to find a way to create new fans that have never seen a hockey game.
I'll agree with both you and TS on that.

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03-16-2008, 12:16 PM
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Topshelf- i couldn't agree more.
Problem is people who will be the last one standing is a very small crowd. To succeed they need the bandwagon fans, die hard fans and have to find a way to create new fans that have never seen a hockey game.
I'm with ya man...there just aren't enough of us that's for sure.

Sometime I think we may be the crazy ones for hangin around but at the end of the day its NHL hockey in my hometown and win, lose or shootout I'll support it.

..but I'm not naive either...I'm by far the exception and not the rule. Bandwagon fans are aboslutely key as well as corporate support and this team is definitely approaching that danger zone in terms of those segments if they aren't already in it.

The organization can only point their fingers at themselves -- can't put anything on the fans. Every team in this league has tasted some kind of success over the 7 years we've been around besides the Jackets. Actually, check that, I think the only team not to make the playoffs in that span is the Panthers. At least they made the finals at one point though.

Next year's slogan: 2008-2009 - make or break year.

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03-16-2008, 12:39 PM
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The management/ownership philosophy needs to change from "thinking about the future" to "winning today AND in the future". The big teams competing for the cup each year, plan on winning today AND winning in the future. When those teams have needs, they fill those needs, unlike us.

At the trade deadline, we shipped off 2 veteran players and did nothing to fill those positions. But yet management comes out saying "we still believe we can make the playoffs". Really? I mean, really? You actually thought this team was deep enough to just get rid of an Adam Foote and Sergie Fedorov and not need to replace them with NHL talent? Or is it just the spin as usual? Do you think we're really that stupid? (You may not have liked DM as a GM, but he did a pretty good job in getting hockey fans in a non hockey market...this site is very proof of that.) SH may have made us better in 3-4 years at the trade deadline, but he made us worse for the rest of the season. What ever happened to being sellers AND buyers?

Yes we were still in playoff hunt at 5 points our with 20 some games to go, I always felt that way. But getting rid of those type players and replacing them with guys named Rome and MacKensie, sounds more like saving money and just using what youve got instead of getting better for a playoff run.

SH has been given a year pass in the "he inherited a mess of a team" excuse, but I seem to recall there was free agents last year that could have addressed our needs, but we decided to dip into 3rd liners and up (ecomnical players)that we didnt really need (we only got Peca because Svitov left).

If he didnt know ANYTHING about the team before he started that he could have seen the needs,then he didnt do much research coming into the job. We apparently passed on Recchi because "he didnt play center"...he seemed to play center pretty good for Kovulchuk.

Its not the city thats the problem, its the ownership and management used to carry out their requirements that make fans go away. That wont change no matter which city you would go to. They'll get the "we're just happy we have a team" years, and then 5-7 years in to where they finally start demanding winning and start to leave if they dont.


Last edited by BluejacketNut: 03-16-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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Old
03-16-2008, 12:49 PM
  #17
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The management philosphy needs to change from "thinking about the future" to "winning today AND in the future". The big teams competing for the cup each year, plan on winning today AND winning in the future. When those teams have needs, they fill those needs, unlike us.

You actually thought this team was deep enough to just get rid of an Adam Foote and Sergie Fedorov and not need to replace them with NHL talent? Or is it just the spin as usual? Do you think we're really that stupid? (You may not have liked DM as a GM, but he did a pretty good job in getting hockey fans in a non hockey market...this site is very proof of that.) SH may have made us better in 3-4 years at the trade deadline, but he made us worse for the rest of the season. What ever happened to being sellers AND buyers?

SH has been given a year pass in the "he inherited a mess of a team" excuse, but I seem to recall there was free agents last year that could have addressed our needs, but we decided to dip into 3rd liners and up (ecomnical players)that we didnt really need (we only got Peca because Svitov left).

If he didnt know ANYTHING about the team before he started that he could have seen the needs,then he didnt do much research coming into the job. We apparently passed on Recchi because "he didnt play center"...he seemed to play center pretty good for Kovulchuk.

Its not the city thats the problem, its the ownership and management used to carry out their requirements that make fans go away. That wont change no matter which city you would go to. They'll get the "we're just happy we have a team" years, and then 5-7 years in to where they finally start demanding winning and start to leave if they dont.
This is a good bit of posting, its straight and to the point. Its time to start holding Ownership and the the President accountable if they tie Howson's hands fom the get go.

And Scott can't be afraid to really go after guys, even if that means sacrificing some of our "Hot Prospects"

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03-16-2008, 01:11 PM
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i'm ready to part ways with mason to get someone this offseason. we have also two 1st round picks and plenty of money and there are some serious trade bait in this team that's loaded with 3rd and 4th liners. my reasoning with parting with mason is leclaire IMO will be the club's number 1 for atleast the next 5 years and that does give mason plenty of time to get experience but is mason worth holding on to for five years when right now we could get a ton for him. i think norrena has done exactly what a number 2 goalie is expected to do and in the next two years when norrena is done we can plug in a great backup for the same amount as norrena. i would like to get jokinen,vermette, and campbell for this team and with what we have to offer i think it can get done this offseason. its time for this team to take off and this summer is the time, or this organ-I-zation isn't really serious about a winner.

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03-16-2008, 01:16 PM
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i'm ready to part ways with mason to get someone this offseason. we have also two 1st round picks and plenty of money and there are some serious trade bait in this team that's loaded with 3rd and 4th liners. my reasoning with parting with mason is leclaire IMO will be the club's number 1 for atleast the next 5 years and that does give mason plenty of time to get experience but is mason worth holding on to for five years when right now we could get a ton for him. i think norrena has done exactly what a number 2 goalie is expected to do and in the next two years when norrena is done we can plug in a great backup for the same amount as norrena. i would like to get jokinen,vermette, and campbell for this team and with what we have to offer i think it can get done this offseason. its time for this team to take off and this summer is the time, or this organ-I-zation isn't really serious about a winner.
Prospects can also be used as resources, aside Rick Nash, I doubt anybody else is untouchable... for Howson to say otherwise shows he's only willing to go so far to get what we need, perhaps not far enough... Nobody is going to fall into his lap like Peca or already have a good relationship with him in Hejda... Scott is really going to have to earn that paycheck this summer.

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03-16-2008, 01:19 PM
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As long as Ohio State University is in Columbus, other than an unlikely NFL franchise in Columbus, any other team is going to be playing second fiddle to OSU football & basketball. Even if the Buckeyes go to the BCS National Championship twice in a row & get blown out each time (hint hint), people are still going to come back.

The Jackets need to try and make themselves an appealing & formidable second fiddle, one that will draw the fans back in and more importantly, keep them.

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03-16-2008, 01:21 PM
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The Jackets need to try and make themselves an appealing & formidable second fiddle, one that will draw the fans back in and more importantly, keep them.
They still may not have the right pieces in the organization to do that, and I don't just mean the players.

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03-16-2008, 01:25 PM
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I will always support this team regardless what happens.

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03-16-2008, 01:28 PM
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CapnCornelius
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As long as Ohio State University is in Columbus, other than an unlikely NFL franchise in Columbus, any other team is going to be playing second fiddle to OSU football & basketball.

Seriously? OSU basketball? People pay attention to OSU basketball once every 10-15 years when they are half-way decent. Can't wait to see them miss the tourney this year so that their inevitable fall to irrelevance proceeds as scheduled.

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03-16-2008, 01:35 PM
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The team needs more cannon and more tradition. We should fire the cannon at every stoppage in play. We need to make our advertisements look more antique, and we need to use the civil war theme more.

It's worked wonders for attendance this year...

right?
Do you even go to many games Sam? I never hear you talking about going.
Those were some of the good things that happened this year.

I'm not concerned about this franchise staying in Columbus at all.
Our owners and affiliates have deep pockets.

Fact: WBNS/DISPATCH/WOLFE FAMILY ENTERPRISES could own this team all by themselves. And the team is a goldmine for their paper/tv/radio ventures.

Fact: Nationwide owns the arena and the district. No way the let the team falter. they have too much at stake to let that happen. If it's ever sold...it would be sold to either them or the Wolfe family.

Fact: Read the paper today about the Net Jets story. The Jackets ALSO bring that kind of job and revenue base to Cbus. No way the city/state fathers let a professional franchise leave town.

Fact: This ain't Nashville. And case you noticed, Nashville still has a team.

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03-16-2008, 01:38 PM
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Seriously? OSU basketball? People pay attention to OSU basketball once every 10-15 years when they are half-way decent. Can't wait to see them miss the tourney this year so that their inevitable fall to irrelevance proceeds as scheduled.
Shows how much I pay attention to OSU basketball. I figured they had a decent following even when mediocre.

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