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Gretzky vs. Jordan

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Old
03-18-2008, 10:10 PM
  #26
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by 88Bottles View Post
It's also pretty easy to get into if you're that tall, especially easy if you are over 7 feet! lol
Yeah but what percentage of society is over 6'4, maybe 5% of the population of males, how many are over 6'8, like 2% at best.

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03-18-2008, 10:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Basketball is alot harder to get into, if youre not 6'4, your chances of making it are slim to none.
Allen Iverson and Steve Nash both beg to differ.

Jordan was a better basketball player than Gretzky was a hockey player, and the margin might be big. Both were dominant scorers, but Jordan was dominant at everything.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jordami01.html

Jordan won 5 League MVP awards (Hart Trophies)
Gretzky won 8

Jordan won 6 NBA Finals MVP awards (Conn Smythes)
Gretzky won 2

Jordan won 10 NBA scoring titles (Art Ross)
Gretzky won 9

Jordan was a 9-time NBA all-defensive first team (Top 5 in Selke voting)
Gretzky never even got close

Jordan won 6 titles with help from Scotty Pippen, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman
Gretzky won 4 with help from Jari Kurri, Mark Messier and Paul Coffey

Individual players dominate more at basketball ... they get more time on the floor and they can control the game more.

It's no slight to Gretzky ... but Jordan was sick.

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Old
03-18-2008, 10:43 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Allen Iverson and Steve Nash both beg to differ.

Jordan was a better basketball player than Gretzky was a hockey player, and the margin might be big. Both were dominant scorers, but Jordan was dominant at everything.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jordami01.html

Jordan won 5 League MVP awards (Hart Trophies)
Gretzky won 8

Jordan won 6 NBA Finals MVP awards (Conn Smythes)
Gretzky won 2

Jordan won 10 NBA scoring titles (Art Ross)
Gretzky won 9

Jordan was a 9-time NBA all-defensive first team (Top 5 in Selke voting)
Gretzky never even got close

Jordan won 6 titles with help from Scotty Pippen, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman
Gretzky won 4 with help from Jari Kurri, Mark Messier and Paul Coffey

Individual players dominate more at basketball ... they get more time on the floor and they can control the game more.

It's no slight to Gretzky ... but Jordan was sick.
theres 1 position in the nba that allows you to be under 6'4. Hell even nowadays 6'6 would be considered the minimum for shooting guards.

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Old
03-18-2008, 10:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Jordan won 5 League MVP awards (Hart Trophies)
Gretzky won 8

Jordan won 10 NBA scoring titles (Art Ross)
Gretzky won 9
Hate to nitpick, but Gretzky had 9 Hart Trophies and 10 scoring titles.

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Old
03-18-2008, 11:13 PM
  #30
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Since I think Jordan is getting shortchanged here, I'll throw up a little something in his defense.


Here's his career from his rookie season until his last game as a Bull (I don't find his comeback tour with Washington particularly relevant):

1985:
-NBA scoring leader
-Rookie of the Year

1986: Injured - 18 games played

1987:
-NBA scoring leader

1988:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Defensive Player of the Year
-NBA Steals Leader
-NBA MVP

1989:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar

1990:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Steal Leader

1991:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Champion
-NBA Finals MVP
-NBA MVP

1992:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Champion
-NBA Finals MVP
-NBA MVP

1993:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Champion
-NBA Finals MVP
-NBA Steal Leader

1994: retired

1995: mostly retired - played 17 games

1996:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Champion
-NBA Finals MVP
-NBA MVP

1997:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Champion
-NBA Finals MVP

1998:
-NBA scoring leader
-First Team Defensive Allstar
-NBA Champion
-NBA Finals MVP
-NBA MVP

NBA records:
-Highest career PPG regular season (30.1)
-Highest career PPG playoffs (33.4)
-Most NBA Finals MVPs (6)
-Most NBA scoring titles (10)
-Most NBA Defensive First Allstar Team selections (9)
-Highest career Efficiency Rating (similar idea to QB rating in football, uses a plethora of statistical categories)

So basically, the only full seasons that Jordan played in which he didn't lead the league in scoring were his two in Washington at age 39 and 40. On top of leading the league in scoring every season, he was a First Team Defensive Allstar every year from 1988-1998. Imagine a guy winning the Art Ross and being a Selke finalist EVERY YEAR.

What really makes him great was his will to win. His scoring in the playoffs is significantly higher than his regular season PPG (even if we take out his Washington years). It's over 3 points higher than any other player in NBA history, and like any sport, very very few players are able to produce higher in the playoffs than in the regular season. He was simply on another level come crunch time, and is arguably the greatest clutch performer of all time. It's for this reason, and not necessarily his regular season amazingness, that I feel Jordan is the greatest athlete I've ever seen (except for maybe that little Japanese dude who eats hotdogs).


Last edited by arrbez: 03-18-2008 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
03-18-2008, 11:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by 88Bottles View Post
Yes it is! You think that being President of the United States is just as easy as being the President of Malta?

Of course they chose their sports, but certain sports have higher levels of difficulty, for example, I think it is much harder to dominate baseball as a hitter or pitcher than any other sport.

Oh, and Magic Johnson was better in his prime than Michael Jordan.
Yes, but the question is how much did they dominate their respective sports, not who had a larger physical toll taken on them. If that's the case, you can say that Dave Semenko was better than Michael Jordan as well. Or if you think baseball is the most difficult, why not take Troy Glaus over Gretzky?

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Old
03-18-2008, 11:24 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Yes, but the question is how much did they dominate their respective sports, not who had a larger physical toll taken on them. If that's the case, you can say that Dave Semenko was better than Michael Jordan as well. Or if you think baseball is the most difficult, why not take Troy Glaus over Gretzky?
Because Glaus is injury prone and on the juice! Luckily we traded him for a guy who's only injury prone and possibly a malcontent .

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Old
03-18-2008, 11:27 PM
  #33
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gretzky.... mike was the better marketed player. He is however the only player in any other sport that comes close to the great one's utter dominance
I don't know if you've heard of him or not, but there's this pretty dominating golfer named Tiger Woods.

NOTE: I'm being facetious with the first part of the above sentence.

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Old
03-18-2008, 11:34 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noteman View Post
I don't know if you've heard of him or not, but there's this pretty dominating golfer named Tiger Woods.

NOTE: I'm being facetious with the first part of the above sentence.
You really can't compare team and individual sports, not to mention that a line has to be drawn somewhere between what is and isn't a sport.

BTW, the best way to ruin sarcasm is to go back and explain it to the person .

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Old
03-19-2008, 12:51 AM
  #35
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you can argue that prime for prime mario was better than wayne. Which basketball player was better than jordan? Wilt 'ballhog' chamberlain, i dont think so.
You make a poor argument. One can argue Mario was better in his prime than Wayne... I disagree and you offer no evidence. Wilt the "ball hog" Chamberlain led the NBA in assists later in his career on the Lakers. Chamberlain was a basketball genius.... A big man.. the biggest man leading the NBA in assists.. after leading many times in scoring and rebounds is indeed amazing. It would be like Akeem or Ewing or Shaq in their mid thirties rejigging their game to be like Magic Johnson....

Instead of multiple posts I'll post all my comments here. Jordan vs Gretzky. It is hard to compare the two with the value of a dominant star so much more important in basketball. Definately Gretzky was more dominant than his peers than Jordan was... however Jordan won at an unprecedented rate in a deep 25+ team league. Cousey and Russell won more.. but in a far lesser league that had little parity. The Bulls won against many other great teams.

Jordan was a winner... A bigger winner than Bird and Magic or Shaq or Kobe or Wilt or Kareem. Was he that much better than all of them? Not by as much as Gretzky is better than Beliveau and Rocket and Bobby Hull and Doug Harvey. Better than Orr or Mario.. I think so but one can easily argue Wilt was Jordan's peer.

Basketball is a different sport but the Bulls sans Jordan were not even a contender.. with him they won almost every year. The Oilers won without Gretzky.. but the Oilers were more stacked in talent than the Bulls were.. but Basketball is not a sport that demands 5 or 6 stars only 2 or 3.

I'll say a tie. Both were the biggest WINNERS of their era and they led their legaues in scoring many times. Jordan was better defensively... But Gretzky was the best playmaker AND goal scorer for many years... something Jordan wasn't.

As much as people hype Messier's leadership and so on... Gretzky was the undenialble leader of the Oilers when he was there. He made everyone else better and not just on the ice but in spirit.. and it carried for most of these guys long after Gretzky left the Oilers. Gretzky lived for hockey... he cared little for fame or money compared to hockey... Messier maybe not so much. A leader yes.. a clutch player? Yes. But Gretzky was the guy... the guy that went into EVERY game expecting to score 5 points and win.

Jordan has the dream team.. at the time it was seen as a gimmee. But in hindsight with the USA struggling in many tournies since then despite being endowwed with more talent it IS a great accomplishment. Jordan was all about Winning... too. He was less of a good teammate than Gretzky I think. But he demanded alot from his team. Both players would whine to officials and get away with it. To me Jordan was a more selfish player. Gretzky really cared about proving to himslef he was the best. He cared little for the accolades he got from others... he simply had a goal that he would play as best as he could and he knew he was the best ever so he expected the best. Jordan was similar.. but he cared alot that others percieved him as the best.

I watched both of their careers... Gretzky I think never, ever blamed a teammate for any loss or bad play.. at least he NEVER said it EVER in a single interview I can ever remember him having. I don't even remember him *****ing about not getting the shoot out chance in the Olympics... sure he whined to refs on the ice.. becuase he sought advantage... but he NEVER blamed another for anything. Jordan... he OFTEN criticized Pippen or other teammates in the media. He whined about his teammates. He complained about how others screwed up. Gretzky never did that.

I'll say they are a tie.

Clutch =
As a leader and teammate - Gretzky
As a marketing guy - Jordan (though irrelevant)
For Championships - different sport but I take Jordan very slightly.

Still a tie.

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Old
03-19-2008, 12:54 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by 88Bottles View Post
Oh, and Magic Johnson was better in his prime than Michael Jordan.
No he wasn't. It is like saying Guy Lafleur or Bobby Clarke was better than Orr or Gretzky... You might WANT to believe it but it just ain't so.

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03-19-2008, 01:04 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
You make a poor argument. One can argue Mario was better in his prime than Wayne... I disagree and you offer no evidence. Wilt the "ball hog" Chamberlain led the NBA in assists later in his career on the Lakers. Chamberlain was a basketball genius.... A big man.. the biggest man leading the NBA in assists.. after leading many times in scoring and rebounds is indeed amazing. It would be like Akeem or Ewing or Shaq in their mid thirties rejigging their game to be like Magic Johnson....

Instead of multiple posts I'll post all my comments here. Jordan vs Gretzky. It is hard to compare the two with the value of a dominant star so much more important in basketball. Definately Gretzky was more dominant than his peers than Jordan was... however Jordan won at an unprecedented rate in a deep 25+ team league. Cousey and Russell won more.. but in a far lesser league that had little parity. The Bulls won against many other great teams.

Jordan was a winner... A bigger winner than Bird and Magic or Shaq or Kobe or Wilt or Kareem. Was he that much better than all of them? Not by as much as Gretzky is better than Beliveau and Rocket and Bobby Hull and Doug Harvey. Better than Orr or Mario.. I think so but one can easily argue Wilt was Jordan's peer.

Basketball is a different sport but the Bulls sans Jordan were not even a contender.. with him they won almost every year. The Oilers won without Gretzky.. but the Oilers were more stacked in talent than the Bulls were.. but Basketball is not a sport that demands 5 or 6 stars only 2 or 3.

I'll say a tie. Both were the biggest WINNERS of their era and they led their legaues in scoring many times. Jordan was better defensively... But Gretzky was the best playmaker AND goal scorer for many years... something Jordan wasn't.

As much as people hype Messier's leadership and so on... Gretzky was the undenialble leader of the Oilers when he was there. He made everyone else better and not just on the ice but in spirit.. and it carried for most of these guys long after Gretzky left the Oilers. Gretzky lived for hockey... he cared little for fame or money compared to hockey... Messier maybe not so much. A leader yes.. a clutch player? Yes. But Gretzky was the guy... the guy that went into EVERY game expecting to score 5 points and win.

Jordan has the dream team.. at the time it was seen as a gimmee. But in hindsight with the USA struggling in many tournies since then despite being endowwed with more talent it IS a great accomplishment. Jordan was all about Winning... too. He was less of a good teammate than Gretzky I think. But he demanded alot from his team. Both players would whine to officials and get away with it. To me Jordan was a more selfish player. Gretzky really cared about proving to himslef he was the best. He cared little for the accolades he got from others... he simply had a goal that he would play as best as he could and he knew he was the best ever so he expected the best. Jordan was similar.. but he cared alot that others percieved him as the best.

I watched both of their careers... Gretzky I think never, ever blamed a teammate for any loss or bad play.. at least he NEVER said it EVER in a single interview I can ever remember him having. I don't even remember him *****ing about not getting the shoot out chance in the Olympics... sure he whined to refs on the ice.. becuase he sought advantage... but he NEVER blamed another for anything. Jordan... he OFTEN criticized Pippen or other teammates in the media. He whined about his teammates. He complained about how others screwed up. Gretzky never did that.

I'll say they are a tie.

Clutch =
As a leader and teammate - Gretzky
As a marketing guy - Jordan (though irrelevant)
For Championships - different sport but I take Jordan very slightly.

Still a tie.
O please wilt played in the nba during an era where other players were in general less athletic. Not to mention that he played the entire game and never sat on the bench. There is a reason jordan is considered better.

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03-19-2008, 01:06 AM
  #38
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Yeah but what percentage of society is over 6'4, maybe 5% of the population of males, how many are over 6'8, like 2% at best.
I tried to look this up to get the actual stats.. But I could not find exact stats... But I'd say being 6'4" as a male is about 1% of the population. 6'8" is like a minute fraction of one percent. maybe 1 of 10000 males are that tall maybe less.

Let's look at the NHL.. and all pro and top level hockey. In history... and hockey is a sport that would attract larger males. ONE player is over 6'8" in History... Chara. I think the ONLY other guy in HISTORY over 6'6" is Hal Gill. Their haven't even been other juniors or AHLers or top Euros over 6'8".

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03-19-2008, 01:07 AM
  #39
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O please wilt played in the nba during an era where other players were in general less athletic. Not to mention that he played the entire game and never sat on the bench. There is a reason jordan is considered better.
Great argument!

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03-19-2008, 01:07 AM
  #40
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My arugment for mario being superior to gretzky, its simple. They played about 9 proper season at the same time and lemieux either had more points or had a higher ppg average in 6 out of those 9 seasons. in 91 mario was injured, in 93 gretzky was injured and in 94 mario was injured so i didnt count those seasons. For the vast majority of the time that they were in the nhl together, lemieux was better.

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03-19-2008, 01:07 AM
  #41
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Many arguments can be made about whether Mario at his peak was better than Wayne. Mario was already best in the world at 23 when Wayne was 27, still in his physical prime. Of course there's a score of arguments for Wayne being better as well, but if you can't recognize that both sides have valid points then perhaps you're the one who shouldn't be "allowed into serious debates."

Oh and cute 7/11 joke. I'm sure a lot of people also appreciated your "there are only 3 Nordiques fans" post in the other topic as well.

My 2 cents.
what're you the fourth?

and causes you to think that I give a ******* for people who can't take a joke? lifes to short bud.. get it or get the f away from me.

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03-19-2008, 01:18 AM
  #42
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theres 1 position in the nba that allows you to be under 6'4. Hell even nowadays 6'6 would be considered the minimum for shooting guards.
There have been and will continue to be players that are great in the NBA that are not 6'4". Allen Iverson is 6 feet exactly... Two players have a better PPG than him... Wilt and Jordan. 1st overall pick, rookie of the year, MVP, FOUR scoring championships, one finals appearance.. an 11 year career. I think that maybe...just maybe he is a pretty impressive player. He is like Gretzky's size.. actually smaller... and the ridiculous arguement that basketball isn't physcial... it is.... Iverson has gone down hard a zillion times and popped right back up. It ain't hockey but nor is it baseball.

Iverson is a HOFer... a truly great player at like 6 foot flat and 170lbs (a shooting guard?)... maybe his tats act like kevlar? Or maybe your argument is stupid? I pick the later.

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03-19-2008, 01:21 AM
  #43
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I don't know if you've heard of him or not, but there's this pretty dominating golfer named Tiger Woods.

NOTE: I'm being facetious with the first part of the above sentence.
bah ... golf... take away their sticks and you have a bunch of old guys in bad pants.......... walking

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03-19-2008, 01:42 AM
  #44
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My arugment for mario being superior to gretzky, its simple. They played about 9 proper season at the same time and lemieux either had more points or had a higher ppg average in 6 out of those 9 seasons. in 91 mario was injured, in 93 gretzky was injured and in 94 mario was injured so i didnt count those seasons. For the vast majority of the time that they were in the nhl together, lemieux was better.
Gretzky won 4 Cups and went to 6 finals.. Mario had 2 and 2.. and for quite a few years he was on a very talented team. Mario may have been better in a single year.. or a stretch of 40 or 60 games... but for their prime you know the 8-12 years they were at their best it is really, really hard to argue for Mario. Peak.. perhaps it is close.. for Prime which entails a lot of seasons... no.....

Lets look at Gretzky's point totals regular season and playoffs his first 14 seasons.... which includes 6 finals....

140
185
224
234
255
234
217
192
190
152
178
128
105
130

If you think Mario can counter that for his prime you are not paying attention or you are giving him a ton of credit for his injuries and for what he didn't do.... Two seasons above he missed a lot of games... but got well over 100 points. 14 years in a row 100+ points.. He averages 200 points a year for his first 11 seasons. Let's compare to Mario...

140 100
185 141
224 107
234 168
255 218
234 123
217 89
192 165
190 178
152 44
178 0
128 188
105 128
130 0

Gretzky 12 Mario 2 (year 12 and 13)

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03-19-2008, 01:46 AM
  #45
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you want me to support evidence, well if i took my time i can probably name all the players that are under 6'4, its that short of a list.

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03-19-2008, 01:48 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Gretzky won 4 Cups and went to 6 finals.. Mario had 2 and 2.. and for quite a few years he was on a very talented team. Mario may have been better in a single year.. or a stretch of 40 or 60 games... but for their prime you know the 8-12 years they were at their best it is really, really hard to argue for Mario. Peak.. perhaps it is close.. for Prime which entails a lot of seasons... no.....

Lets look at Gretzky's point totals regular season and playoffs his first 14 seasons.... which includes 6 finals....

140
185
224
234
255
234
217
192
190
152
178
128
105
130

If you think Mario can counter that for his prime you are not paying attention or you are giving him a ton of credit for his injuries and for what he didn't do.... Two seasons above he missed a lot of games... but got well over 100 points. 14 years in a row 100+ points.. He averages 200 points a year for his first 11 seasons. Let's compare to Mario...

140 100
185 141
224 107
234 168
255 218
234 123
217 89
192 165
190 178
152 44
178 0
128 188
105 128
130 0

Gretzky 12 Mario 2 (year 12 and 13)
well do a comparison on thier ppg average per year and lemuiex beats him almost every year.

in 88,89,92, 93, 96, 97 lemieux was clearly better and the age difference between them is only 4 years.

in 1990 gretzky did score more points, but lets be realistic, if leimuex ppg avergae was higher by such a wide margin, are we supposed to believe he would all of sudden not surpass it.

after 87, gretzky only won scoring titles in years lemiex was injured.

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03-19-2008, 01:59 AM
  #47
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Hey, a Gretzky vs. Lemieux thread...sweet.

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03-19-2008, 02:11 AM
  #48
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Gretzky

Jordan feasted off weak compitition

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03-19-2008, 02:11 AM
  #49
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well do a comparison on thier ppg average per year and lemuiex beats him almost every year.

in 88,89,92, 93, 96, 97 lemieux was clearly better and the age difference between them is only 4 years.

in 1990 gretzky did score more points, but lets be realistic, if leimuex ppg avergae was higher by such a wide margin, are we supposed to believe he would all of sudden not surpass it.

after 87, gretzky only won scoring titles in years lemiex was injured.
Of course by 1988 Gretzky had NINE MVPS and FOUR CUPS... If Mario was better after that... and he was he really needs to put his stamp on the game... he did that but not to the extent Gretzky did. I love Mario.... I think he was great and amazing. I am a HUGE fan of both Gretzky and Mario. But it is a really hard argument to make that Mario's Prime excceds Gretzky's.. maybe his absolute PEAK,, in a year or a portion of a year is better than Gretzky's... his peak a 8 or 10 or 12 year period... I can't see a legitimate arguement for Mario over Gretzky. I can't see an argument on that basis for Mario over Orr or Howe either.

The only way you can really make an 8-10-12 year argument for Mario is if you give credit for injuries and cancer.. but you can't. Orr retired young but played more nearly full seasons in a row than Mario. Howe rarely missed games... but almost died and had a massive injury young with a skull injury. Gretzky never missed many games at all in his first decade in the NHL and after back problems missed some but not that many.

You aren't making this argument... but I will give it to Mario.. a far greater dominance post 35 than Gretzky. Mario after his last comeback after 4.5 years off was a ton closer to a young peak Mario than Gretzky was as a Ranger his last few years... but even then Gretzky managed to play more games.

Mario was Gretzky's equal for about 3 regular seasons and 2 playoffs... but Gretzky was that dominant for 12-14 years consecutively.

There is a reason Mario is almost always chosen as the 4th best ever. Absolute peak for one series or one playoffs or one season he is 1a or 1b or 1c... Prime or career he is 4th.

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03-19-2008, 04:56 AM
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JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
For the vast majority of the time that they were in the nhl together, lemieux was better.
Debatable.

Only because you compare an older Gretzky with a younger Mario, if you limit things to just the time they were in the league together.

For the vast majority of the time they were together, my younger sister was a better player than my grand father. Now, my grandfather was in a wheelchair the last 10 years...

If any fair comparison, Gretzky holds a strong advantage.

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