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Gretzky vs. Jordan

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Old
04-20-2017, 04:13 PM
  #576
MickeyMelchiondo
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Originally Posted by KoozNetsOff 92 View Post
I thought we were talking about individual players, my bad.
I thought we were too until someone brought up marketing

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04-20-2017, 06:45 PM
  #577
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Facts. Lemieux had a 12 point lead on a 28-29 year old gretzky in 89-90 58 games into the season. By the time lemieux was 23 and gretzky was only 27 there was a new king

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04-20-2017, 08:31 PM
  #578
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Gretzky but im biased and hate basketball. Also I dont see much value in a sport that comes with the requirement that you are freak of nature tall to begin with. Kinda eliminates alot of people.

(Lemieux prime is NOT, at all, close to Gretzkys. Peak there might be kind of an argument to be made but prime is, I repeat, not close AT ALL.)

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04-20-2017, 08:51 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
I thought we were too until someone brought up marketing
Were the Chicago bulls on shoes and clothing or Jordan? Last time I checked it was air jordan/jump man, in other words the individual. So yeah, marketing is a valid point in an individual debate, championships are not.

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04-20-2017, 10:42 PM
  #580
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Facts. Lemieux had a 12 point lead on a 28-29 year old gretzky in 89-90 58 games into the season. By the time lemieux was 23 and gretzky was only 27 there was a new king
As usual with Mario-apologists, the argument for 1989-90 rests on "shoulda, coulda, woulda". Mario did out-produce Gretzky that season in PPG (barely). But Mario didn't win the scoring title (Gretzky did) and didn't win the Hart, and didn't make the playoffs, and went -18. Some "king".

Certainly in 1988-89 and maybe in 1989-90, Mario produced a higher PPG than Gretzky. But Gretzky still kicked Mario's ass in even-strength scoring in those seasons.

By the way, who was king in 1990-91??? (Don't worry, you need only one sentence to answer this.)

Oh, also -- who was king at Canada Cup '91? You know, the tournament Mario couldn't be dragged from the golf-course to participate in?

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Old
04-21-2017, 12:28 AM
  #581
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By the way, who was king in 1990-91??? (Don't worry, you need only one sentence to answer this.)

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04-21-2017, 12:38 AM
  #582
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Why a whole sentence, Panther?

The pic speaks volumes.

As for 90/91, the mice will play when the cat's away.

Once the big cat healed up and turned it on just when the big cat time arrived, it looked like this:

Lemieux PS numbers:

23GP 16G 28A 44PTS

Shall we check the great one's 91 post-season numbers too?

Ah, let's do it while we're at 90/91, before it slips away...

12GP 4G 11A 15PTS

Those would be some fine average numbers for Fedorov during the DPE.

And they still were cool in spring 91, even for the alpha mouse.

Nothing like the Big Cat though, nothing like HIM at all.

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04-21-2017, 10:46 AM
  #583
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Okay.... To summarize my position on Gretzky and Lemieux's mutually relative dominance (and why did someone bring up Lemieux in this thread, in the first place...?):

There are three phases:

1) Gretzky as undisputed best player in the world

1980-81 to 1987-88 regular season
Total seasons: 8
Total points: 1532 to 901 (2nd)
Total goals: 532 to 400 (2nd)
Total assists: 1000 to 580 (2nd)
PPG: 2.48 to 1.77 (2nd) / 2.48 to 1.56 (non-Lemieux 2nd)
GPG: 0.86 to 0.76 (2nd)
APG: 1.62 to 1.03 (2nd) / 1.62 to 0.96 (non-Lemieux 2nd)
Plus/Minus: +536 to +330 (2nd)

1980-81 to 1987-88 playoffs
Total seasons: 8
Total points: 249 to 169 (2nd, which is Gretzky's linemate)
Total goals: 79 (tied with another player, who is his linemate) to 65 (2nd)
Total assists: 170 to 90 (2nd)
PPG: 2.13 to 1.53 (2nd)
GPG: doesn't win this (missed by 0.02 off 1st place Bossy)
APG: 1.45 to 1.07 (2nd) / 1.45 to 0.90 (30+ games played 2nd)
Plus/Minus: +65 to +63 (2nd)

To summarize: For eight straight seasons -- missing almost no games and with no time off to rest, despite yearly deep playoff runs -- Gretzky was by far the best player in goals, assists, points, and plus/minus, in both playoffs and regular season (one exception: he was 2nd in goals per game in the playoffs, by two-hundredths of a percent), by a mammoth and unprecedented distance in most of those categories.


2) Gretzky & Lemieux about even as two best players in the world

1988-89 to September 1991 regular season
Total seasons: 3 each (Gretzky missed some games in 1989-90, and Lemieux missed several games the same season; Lemieux barely played in the 1990-91 regular season).
Total points: Gretzky 473 (1st) / Lemieux 367 (3rd)
Total goals: Lemieux 149 (3rd) / Gretzky 135 (8th)
Total assists: Gretzky 338 (1st) / Lemieux 218 (4th)
PPG: Lemieux 2.28 (1st) / Gretzky 2.07 (2nd)
GPG: Lemieux 0.93 (1st) / Gretzky 0.59 (8th or 9th)
APG: Gretzky 1.48 (1st) / Lemieux 1.35 (2nd)
Plus/Minus: Gretzky +53 (17th) / Lemieux +31 (41st)

1989 to 1991 playoffs
Total seasons: Gretzky 3 / Lemieux 2 (missed 1990 playoffs)
Total points: Lemieux 63 (1st) / Gretzky 47 (10th)
Total goals: Lemieux 28 (3rd) / Gretzky 12 (33rd)
Total assists: Tied at 35 each (4th/5th)
PPG: Lemieux 1.85 (1st) / Gretzky 1.57 (2nd)
GPG: Lemieux 0.82 (2nd) / Gretzky 0.40 (40th; around 26th of players with 20+ games played)
APG: Gretzky 1.17 (1st) / Lemieux 1.03 (3rd)
Plus/Minus: Lemieux +13 (12th) / Gretzky -8 (180th)

To summarize: The two are very close in overall per-game production, with a slight edge to Mario, though he missed a bunch of games (not to mention that Gretzky is starting over on a new team and has the hardest travel schedule in the League). Gretzky wins two of three scoring titles, and still outscores Mario per-game at even strength.

Gretzky's goal-scoring and plus/minus take a big hit in the playoffs, largely due to having to play against his old team every year in 1989, 1990, and 1991 (call it 'The Tikkanen effect').

Lemieux certainly performs far better than Gretzky in the playoffs overall here, even though he was a no-show for games 6 and 7 against Philly in '89 and missed the playoffs entirely in 1990.

In September 1991, when Mario was eating poutine and golfing, Wayne led Team Canada to victory at the Canada Cup. Gretzky was (as in '81, '84, and '87) the leading scorer and best player in the tournament against the world's best players. If my memory serves, Wayne was named MVP of nearly every game, until he was 'Sutered' in game 2 of the Final. Thus ended his prime.


3) Lemieux as undisputed best player in the world

October 1991 to 1996 (I don't think he made it 1997, as by then he's severely challenged by Hasek, Jagr... even Lindros)

1991-92 to 1995-96 regular season
Total seasons: 4 (of 5 possible)
Total points: doesn't win this (2nd; missed by 9 points off 1st place Oates)
Total goals: doesn't win this (4th; missed by 54 off 1st place Hull)
Total assists: doesn't win this (8th; missed by 74 off 1st place Oates)
PPG: 2.26 to 1.48 (2nd)
GPG: 0.92 to 0.76 (2nd)
APG: 1.34 to 1.06 (2nd) / 1.34 to 1.01 (non-Gretzky 2nd)
Plus/Minus: doesn't win this (8th)

1992 to 1996 playoffs
Total seasons: 4
Total points: 86 to 77 (2nd)
Total goals: 39 (tied with Jagr)
Total assists: doesn't win this (5th)
PPG: 1.72 to 1.63 (2nd) / 1.72 to 1.48 (2nd of players with 30+ games played)
GPG: doesn't win this (missed by 0.05 off 1st place Fleury; of players with 30+ games played Mario is 1st, but only slightly over Sakic)
APG: doesn't win this (3rd)

To summarize: Mario is by far the best player on a per-game basis during this 5 year period, though his per-game domination -- for half the time that Gretzky was completely dominant -- is not nearly as dominant as Gretzky's in any area, except in goals-per-game (and by the way, Gretzky's GPG dominance in the five-year span of 1981-82 through 1984-85 is far greater than Lemieux's, with Bossy as competition).



CONCLUSION: There is no way any rational person can study the above stats and conclude that Lemieux was in any way, shape, or form a more dominant, better, or more important player than Gretzky in each player's period of dominance.


Getting it back on topic: Is Lemieux in any way comparable to Michael Jordan in career accomplishments?

Let's see. Who owns the following records in ice hockey?:
- goals per game per season
- total goals
- assists per game per season
- total assists
- points per game per season
- total points
- Fastest 50 goals
- Fastest player to 100 goals, 200 goals, 300 goals, 400 goals, 500 goals, 600 goals, 700 goals
- most hat tricks
- most total goals in playoffs
- most total assists in playoffs
- most total points in playoffs
- most points one playoff year
- most assists one playoff year
- most assists in the Final
- most Points in the Final
- most goals in the Final (modern record)
- most consecutive games with a point
- most hat-tricks in the playoffs

Answer: Not Lemieux.

Who accomplished all this entering the NHL on an expansion team, getting traded to a bottom feeder at age 27, and having probably the hardest travel-schedule of any player for his first 17 seasons?

Answer: Not Lemieux.

Who is the one hockey player every casual sports fan who doesn't even like hockey all know?

Answer: Not Lemieux.


So, there is no way Mario Lemieux can be compared to Michael Jordan in accomplishments.

Mario could be compared to Jordan -- in fact, I would support it -- in terms of relative playing styles in the two different sports. There is some similarity there, and also in the way both players entered the pros and had little support their first few years (they also started pro in the same season).


Last edited by The Panther: 04-21-2017 at 11:01 AM.
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Old
04-21-2017, 11:52 AM
  #584
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I'm sorry wildcat, no doubt your post is meticulously researched, yet I won't read it, because my point was not to appologize / criticize Gretzky / Lemieux.

I intended to suggest that Gretzky was not necessarily more dominant than Jordan was in their respective sport, as Mario rivaled Wayne at times. And until Mario arrived and got rid of his baby fat and put on the manly one, Gretzky didn't really face all the best players in the world.

Even with the Iron Curtain intact, NBA still comprised the majority of the best players in the world.

Meanwhile NHL would have been a completely different competition with all the good-enough Russians, Czechs and Slovaks abroad and aboard.

I understand why so many hockey-first fans would say Gretzky meant more to hockey than Jordan did to basketball. Yet i don't really buy that. My mind won't be made up as easily.

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04-21-2017, 12:01 PM
  #585
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arvydas sabonis was awesome. maybe fetisov or makarov awesome.

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04-21-2017, 04:27 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by threetimer View Post
I'm sorry wildcat, no doubt your post is meticulously researched, yet I won't read it, because my point was not to appologize / criticize Gretzky / Lemieux.

I intended to suggest that Gretzky was not necessarily more dominant than Jordan was in their respective sport, as Mario rivaled Wayne at times. And until Mario arrived and got rid of his baby fat and put on the manly one, Gretzky didn't really face all the best players in the world.

Even with the Iron Curtain intact, NBA still comprised the majority of the best players in the world.

Meanwhile NHL would have been a completely different competition with all the good-enough Russians, Czechs and Slovaks abroad and aboard.

I understand why so many hockey-first fans would say Gretzky meant more to hockey than Jordan did to basketball. Yet i don't really buy that. My mind won't be made up as easily.
Gretzky was the best player and leading scorer in every best on best 81/84/87/91 Canada Cup.

That spoils your argument. Vs all the best Gretzky was always the best. 6 Finals and leading scorer in each one.

Plus in the "head to head" superstar matchups that mean so much in basketball and what gives Jordan his "legend" status.... Gretzky crushes Mario even after Mario was in his peak/prime and Gretzky had left his.

Also Gretzky crushed his first decade of hockey. Led the NHL in points easily. His second decade in hockey 89/90-98/99 he STILL LED THE NHL in POINTS.

Mario is a legend but Gretzky is the hammer. Even past his prime after his back injury he drags an average team to the final with 40 pts. Then on a horrible team, far past his prime wins another Art Ross in 93/94. His fifteenth NHL season. Did Jordan or Mario win a scoring title in their fifteenth season?

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04-21-2017, 04:43 PM
  #587
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Gretzky's prime is roughly 1980 to 1991.

So, during the years that Mario and he overlapped -- 1984 to 1991 -- when did Mario "dominate Gretzky"? Answer: 1988-89 only.

And what was unique about that season? Oh yeah, it's the season Gretzky started over again on a new team.

So, except for that one blip (which is obviously a bizarre and exceptional situation, to say the least), Mario dominated Gretzky during their prime... never.
Plus Gretzky won the Hart that year (even though Mario should probably have won).

Mario was either unlucky or just fated to almost always be in Gretzky's shadow.

87/88 Mario has 168 points. Finally wins Hart and Ross. Gretzky wins Cup and Conn Smythe.

88/89 Mario hits 199 points. Still loses Hart to Gretzky and the media is focused on the Gretzky in LA storyline.
89/90 Mario misses over 20 games. Penguins miss playoffs. Gretzky wins Art Ross.
90/91 Mario misses most of season. Still awesomely wins Conn Smthe and Cup. Gretzky with the Art Ross
91/92 Mario wins Ross and Smythe and Cup. Messier is big story wins Hart.
92/93 Mario has superb season but misses 20+ games 160 points 69 goals but misses shot at 92 goal record and 200 pts. Playoffs his #1 seed team upset in playoffs. Gretzky takes dark horse team to finals. 40 points. Overshadows maybe Mario's best season.
93/94 Mario plays 22 games. Gretzky wins Art Ross.

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04-21-2017, 10:17 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by threetimer View Post
I'm sorry wildcat, no doubt your post is meticulously researched, yet I won't read it, because my point was not to appologize / criticize Gretzky / Lemieux.

I intended to suggest that Gretzky was not necessarily more dominant than Jordan was in their respective sport, as Mario rivaled Wayne at times. And until Mario arrived and got rid of his baby fat and put on the manly one, Gretzky didn't really face all the best players in the world.

Even with the Iron Curtain intact, NBA still comprised the majority of the best players in the world.

Meanwhile NHL would have been a completely different competition with all the good-enough Russians, Czechs and Slovaks abroad and aboard.

I understand why so many hockey-first fans would say Gretzky meant more to hockey than Jordan did to basketball. Yet i don't really buy that. My mind won't be made up as easily.

When looking at scoring, at his peak year Jordan averaged 37.1 ppg over the 2nd place scorer at 29 ppg, a 1.27 points per game more than his closest competitor.

At Gretzky's peak years (between 1982-1987), he was averaging between 1.52-1.69 times more points than his closest competitor (over a 6 year year span).

Just based on scoring statistics, Gretzky was more dominant. I am not sure how else to look at the idea of dominance.

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04-21-2017, 10:37 PM
  #589
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Gretzky was the best player and leading scorer in every best on best 81/84/87/91 Canada Cup.

That spoils your argument. Vs all the best Gretzky was always the best. 6 Finals and leading scorer in each one.

Plus in the "head to head" superstar matchups that mean so much in basketball and what gives Jordan his "legend" status.... Gretzky crushes Mario even after Mario was in his peak/prime and Gretzky had left his.

Also Gretzky crushed his first decade of hockey. Led the NHL in points easily. His second decade in hockey 89/90-98/99 he STILL LED THE NHL in POINTS.

Mario is a legend but Gretzky is the hammer. Even past his prime after his back injury he drags an average team to the final with 40 pts. Then on a horrible team, far past his prime wins another Art Ross in 93/94. His fifteenth NHL season. Did Jordan or Mario win a scoring title in their fifteenth season?

Doesn't "spoil" my argument. Because I don't argue against Gretzky being the best during the first three quarters of the eighties.

I just say... never mind.

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04-21-2017, 10:43 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
When looking at scoring, at his peak year Jordan averaged 37.1 ppg over the 2nd place scorer at 29 ppg, a 1.27 points per game more than his closest competitor.

At Gretzky's peak years (between 1982-1987), he was averaging between 1.52-1.69 times more points than his closest competitor (over a 6 year year span).

Just based on scoring statistics, Gretzky was more dominant. I am not sure how else to look at the idea of dominance.
But that's the thing. The second best scorer of the eighties was Stastny. A legend? Yeah. The best Euro?

...

Gretzky was not competing against all the best players of the era week in week out. That's what I meant. His "dominance" may be a bit overblown when compared with Jordan's.

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04-22-2017, 03:55 AM
  #591
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But that's the thing. The second best scorer of the eighties was Stastny. A legend? Yeah. The best Euro?

...

Gretzky was not competing against all the best players of the era week in week out. That's what I meant. His "dominance" may be a bit overblown when compared with Jordan's.
Gretzky was destroying everyone. In every context and in every way. He did compete against all the best players of his era. Sweden and Finland were sending their best. The best Czechoslovskian player Statsny defected. The Soviets he faced in best on bests and then the second half of his career in the NHL.

The "did not face the best" or "competition was weak" argument for Jordan works better vs Chamberlain or Ruth or Orr. Not so much vs Gretzky.

I mean Jordan faces the Magic and Bird Celts and Lakers and the stacked bad boy Pistons. Young Gretzky Oilers beat the still stacked dynasty Lafleur Habs in the playoffs and then beat the dynasty Islanders in the finals. Gretzky played in a very strong era. Beat and played vs top echlon players and teams.

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04-22-2017, 05:38 AM
  #592
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Gretzky played in a very strong era. Beat and played vs top echlon players and teams.
And yet he didn't have to face all of the truly best players of the 80s. Not weekly. The NHL still was the best hockey league in the world. Despite that, a lot of great players simply played elsewhere. It's a fact.

Can you imagine that the top crop of Soviet players could have made the eighties NHL scoring races look a bit different? Gretzky (likely) would have still won. But some of the best defenders / goalies from Europe (maybe) would have made scoring a tiny bit harder and some of the best forwards from Europe would have -- maybe -- narrowed the gap a little bit more than guys like... Stastny.

Can you imagine this?

(I know the answer. Enjoy your weekend.)

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04-22-2017, 06:24 AM
  #593
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In his 16th pro season, playing on a terrible team with the worst travel schedule, post-prime Gretzky easily won the scoring title over prime Fedorov, Bure, Zubov, Jagr, etc. (not to mention Lindros, etc.).

The supposition that he 'probably' would have won scoring titles ten years earlier is hilarious to say the least.

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04-22-2017, 07:05 AM
  #594
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In his 16th pro season, playing on a terrible team with the worst travel schedule, post-prime Gretzky easily won the scoring title over prime Fedorov, Bure, Zubov, Jagr, etc. (not to mention Lindros, etc.).

The supposition that he 'probably' would have won scoring titles ten years earlier is hilarious to say the least.
Over prime Zubov

^^ That's hilarious.

And don't forget to include the Hart voting.

As it's quite possible that some Euros might have made things look different even back in the 80s, had Gretzky still won all those ART's with all of the best players in the world abroad and aboard.

I thought you were a big, big, big, big, big fan of Gretzky.

No no.

Zooobov.

Can I call you Sergei from now on?

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04-22-2017, 07:09 AM
  #595
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Challenged by peak Makarov when he managed to beat prime Zubov?

NO WAY(NE)!

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04-22-2017, 10:10 AM
  #596
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Over prime Zubov

^^ That's hilarious.

And don't forget to include the Hart voting.

As it's quite possible that some Euros might have made things look different even back in the 80s, had Gretzky still won all those ART's with all of the best players in the world abroad and aboard.

I thought you were a big, big, big, big, big fan of Gretzky.

No no.

Zooobov.
Excuse me -- YOU are the one who brought up the issue of Russians not being in the NHL. That is why I mentioned the top-scoring Russions in 1993-94. Are you following?

If the world's best collection of players -- from Canada, the US, the Czech republic, Russia, Finland, Sweden, etc. -- could not match Gretzky, playing for a terrible team and three years past his prime, why on earth would you even ask if he could still win the scoring race ten years earlier??

As has also been mentioned and you've conveniently ignored, Gretzky faced the world's best players in 1981, 1984, 1987, and 1991 Canada Cups and led every tournament in scoring (and won 3 out of 4).

As for Gretzky and the 80s'-era star Russians, here's how they did in the NHL in 1990-91:
Gretzky: 163 points (+30)
Makarov: 79 points (+15)
Larionov: 34 points (-3)

But go ahead and keep desperately digging. You might yet come up with something besides fool's gold.

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04-22-2017, 11:22 AM
  #597
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Excuse me -- YOU are the one who brought up the issue of Russians not being in the NHL. That is why I mentioned the top-scoring Russions in 1993-94. Are you following?
I brought up Zubov's absence?

I was talking about the eighties specifically.

Btw you mentioned (not to mention him) Lindros who played 65 games that year.

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If the world's best collection of players -- from Canada, the US, the Czech republic, Russia, Finland, Sweden, etc. -- could not match Gretzky, playing for a terrible team and three years past his prime, why on earth would you even ask if he could still win the scoring race ten years earlier??
I didn't ask anything like that. You repeatedly argue ghosts here. And even if I did ask that, your simple proportion logic just wouldn't do.

It's almost like suggesting that because Jagr scored 56 points in 90/91 and Gretzky scored 163, since 45-year-old Jagr scored 66 in 15/16, prime Gretzky would have scored -- what was your guess the last time I read this nonsense?

(Only in this case, it's "some Euros here" and "some other Euros there". As long as it's some bunch of Euros that do as I want them to, they're golden. Let's use them up.)

I saw you playing this outrageously simplifying card al least twice already and no-one said a word. They're probably used to it already.

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As has also been mentioned and you've conveniently ignored, Gretzky faced the world's best players in 1981, 1984, 1987, and 1991 Canada Cups and led every tournament in scoring (and won 3 out of 4).
I ignored them because the 9 game samples are pretty pathetic. And if anything, they underscore that there may be something in what I say. Gretzky's point leads looked nothing like the ones he enjoyed running away with Art in not-fully-loaded NHL every year in the 80s. Although he had the rink size advantage.

His most dominant CC performance came alongside Lemieux btw.

I didn't use this because I thought it was cheap.

Until...

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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
As for Gretzky and the 80s'-era star Russians, here's how they did in the NHL in 1990-91:
Gretzky: 163 points (+30)
Makarov: 79 points (+15)
Larionov: 34 points (-3)

But go ahead and keep desperately digging. You might yet come up with something besides fool's gold.
I got a whole artillery fired at me. Although all along, the target's been hanging on the 80s back and the fact the NHL Gretzky dominated didn't comprise all the best players in the world.

You had better start accepting this with respect to this particular debate. Because it is reality.

There's like a million of things to be discussed further within this acceptance. Instead of making such a huge dumb drama out of it. But how do you discuss anything when you know you're right about all that stuff no-one's really talking about and you'll keep screaming it no matter what.


Last edited by threetimer: 04-22-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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04-22-2017, 11:37 AM
  #598
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Originally Posted by threetimer View Post
I brought up Zubov's absence?

I was talking about the eighties specifically.

Btw you mentioned (not to mention him) Lindros who played 65 games that year.



I didn't ask anything like that. You repeatedly argue ghosts here. And even if I did ask that, your simple proportion logic just wouldn't do.

It's almost like suggesting that because Jagr scored 56 points in 90/91 and Gretzky scored 163, since 45-year-old Jagr scored 66 in 15/16, prime Gretzky would have scored -- what was your guess the last time I read this nonsense?

(Only in this case, it's "some Euros here" and "some other Euros there". As long as it's some bunch of Euros that do as I want them to, they're golden. Let's use them up.)

I saw you playing this outrageously simplifying card al least twice already and no-one said a word. They're probably used to it already.



I ignored them because the 9 game samples are pretty pathetic. And if anything, they underscore that there may be something in what I say. Gretzky's point leads looked nothing like the ones he enjoyed running away with Art in not-fully-loaded NHL every year in the 80s. Although he had the rink size advantage.

His most dominant CC performance came alongside Lemieux btw.

I didn't use this because I thought it was cheap.

Until...



I got a whole artillery fired at me. Although all along, the target's been hanging on the 80s back and the fact the NHL Gretzky dominated didn't comprise all the best players in the world.

You had better start accepting this with respect to this particular debate. Because it is reality.

There's like a million of things to be discussed further within this acceptance. Instead of making such a huge dumb drama out of it. But how do you discuss anything when you know you're right about all that stuff no-one's really talking about and you'll keep screaming it no matter what.
What kind of point are you trying to make? Gretzky utterly dominated the 1980's like no athlete in any sport has ever dominated a decade. He took all comers and beat everyone. He was the Hart MVP 9 of 10 seasons and the year he wasn't he was MVP of the playoffs. He led every International tournament he was in from 1977-1991 in scoring and was clearly the best player in every single one.

There is no possible way to talk down how great peak Gretzky was.

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04-22-2017, 11:49 AM
  #599
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Gretzky utterly dominated the 1980's like no athlete in any sport has ever dominated a decade. He took all comers and beat everyone. He was the Hart MVP 9 of 10 seasons and the year he wasn't he was MVP of the playoffs. He led every International tournament he was in from 1977-1991 in scoring and was clearly the best player in every single one.

There is no possible way to talk down how great peak Gretzky was.
There is. By meekly pointing out he perhaps enjoyed more favorable circumstance than any other athlete in history to dominate his sport* like he did.

But since certain people have enshrined and pontificated him, anyone who ASKS is already guilty of sacrilege and runs a risk of getting run down by an Inquisitor (psychotic fan).

Gretzky was great, greatest and all that. But he shouldn't be a religion forced on everyone.

And if his status can't be questioned, it's probably not as solid as some would like to think.


*He didn't dominate his sport as much as he dominated his league, which, during his days, wasn't to hockey what NBA was to basketball during Jordan's prime.


Last edited by threetimer: 04-22-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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04-22-2017, 11:54 AM
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My, the stubborn is strong with this one...

Funny, how you once called Hart "the writer's-whim award", yet you bring it up to use it AGAINST Gretzky in the 90s, because he did poorly in that category. I tell ya.

Gretzky dwarfed everybody, including Lemieux (who btw gets points from me for beating cancer and for style, because I value artistry on ice). The only argument Jordan has against him is his all-around play.

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