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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Gretzky vs. Jordan

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Old
03-19-2008, 05:00 AM
  #51
JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
well do a comparison on thier ppg average per year and lemuiex beats him almost every year.
Again, you are only starting to count Gretzky AFTER his best seasons are done.

Line them up 1st year to 1st year and you get drastically different results.

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Old
03-19-2008, 05:06 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by 88Bottles View Post
I agree, it is very demanding, all sports are, but I was merely stating my opinion that hockey takes much more of a toll on one's body than basketball. The NBA playoffs are nowhere near the physical calibre as NHL playoffs and with all those timeouts and player subsitutions during one game, basketball players have a lot more time to rest.
It seems worth noting that the NBA is on the whole a much younger league than the NHL.

NBA average age: 26.89

Can't find the most recent NHL stats, but the trend is upwards and in 2006 it was 28.66.

The ability to play longer is a good sign of the physical demand of the sport.

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Old
03-19-2008, 07:59 AM
  #53
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Mario was more dominant in his prime.
Magic was more dominant in his prime.

Wayne had a better career.
Michael had a better career.

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Old
03-19-2008, 01:40 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post

in 88,89,92, 93, 96, 97 lemieux was clearly better and the age difference between them is only 4 years.
Lemieux only won the scoring title in `88 because Gretzky was injured.

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Old
03-19-2008, 01:53 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
You really can't compare team and individual sports, not to mention that a line has to be drawn somewhere between what is and isn't a sport.

BTW, the best way to ruin sarcasm is to go back and explain it to the person .
I agree that it is very hard to compare team and individual sports. However, it is VERY tough to deny that Tiger is more dominant in his particular sport than Gretzky or Jordan were in their particular sports.

I also agree that a line has to be drawn between what is and isn't a sport. If you ask 100% of people associated with the NHL, and I'll go 90% of the general public, they'll say golf is a sport.

BTW, I didn't really explain the sarcasm as just type out the sarcasm emoticon. I didn't want to put it at the end of my statement and have people think that I was being sarcastic with the entire statement. At the same time, somebody on this board would have taken it at face value had I not put that on there. Anyone who's been posting at HF for any reasonable amount of time knows that to be true.

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Old
03-19-2008, 01:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
bah ... golf... take away their sticks and you have a bunch of old guys in bad pants.......... walking
That's a really, REALLY bad argument. I mean what happens to hockey if you take away their sticks? You've got a bunch of toothless guys wearing big, fat padded shorts.... skating.

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Old
03-19-2008, 02:02 PM
  #57
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I'd say there 2a and 2b with Jordan having a slight edge.

The most dominant athlete at there own sport IMO is Tiger Woods.

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Old
03-19-2008, 02:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Lemieux only won the scoring title in `88 because Gretzky was injured.
lemiuex still had a higher ppg average, in 91 and 94, lemiuex was injured and gtrez won the scoring titles, but mario's ppg average was still convingly higher. If he were to have played the whole season he was gonna outscore gretzky by 20-30 points like he did in every year that they were healthy together.

Why dont we mention that a 36 year old lemiuex scored 76 points in 43 games. A 38 lemieux scored 91 points in 67 games and this was in the middle of the dead puck era.

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Old
03-19-2008, 03:25 PM
  #59
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The NBA is a individualistic sport. 2 stars can make or break a team. Gretzky was way more dominant in a more team oriented sport, whereas Jordan was probably able to stand out more since there's what, 12 players on an NBA roster?

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Old
03-19-2008, 03:52 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Lemieux only won the scoring title in `88 because Gretzky was injured.
True

But Gretz in '90, 91 and 94 and Jagr in '95 only won because Lemeiux was injured/didn't play.

Think of it this way. In the beginning of the 89-90 season, Lemieux was just about to turn 24. From the age of 24 to 40 when he retired he only played 2 seasons with over 70 games. Two 70-game seasons in 16 years. The guy's prime was taken away from him by injuries, yet many people act as if he was perfectly healthy all that time and don't give him any credit for fighting through what he did and still accomplish so much

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Old
03-19-2008, 04:09 PM
  #61
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Jordan's physique was so good that he was the only player to play in all games for Washington Wizards in 2003. At age of 40 he managed to reach 40 points in one game.

I think Gretzky was amazing but you could see him slowing down in his final seasons. In his last season he was no longer great - just good.

For sake of athleticism and coolness, I have to say Jordan.

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Old
03-19-2008, 07:35 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
lemiuex still had a higher ppg average, in 91 and 94, lemiuex was injured and gtrez won the scoring titles, but mario's ppg average was still convingly higher. If he were to have played the whole season he was gonna outscore gretzky by 20-30 points like he did in every year that they were healthy together.

Why dont we mention that a 36 year old lemiuex scored 76 points in 43 games. A 38 lemieux scored 91 points in 67 games and this was in the middle of the dead puck era.
Comparing statistics is not the way to go if you are trying to make a case for Mario over Wayne. That is bringing a knife to a gun fight.

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Old
03-19-2008, 08:16 PM
  #63
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
lemiuex still had a higher ppg average,
Since that was a response to my point about `88:

Lemieux GP-77, PTS-168, PPG- 2.18
Gretzky GP-64, PTS-149, PPG-- 2.33

So....no he didn't.

Quote:
in 91 and 94, lemiuex was injured and gtrez won the scoring titles, but mario's ppg average was still convingly higher.
1991:

Lemieux GP-26, PTS-45, PPG- 1.73
Gretzky GP-78, PTS-163, PPG- 2.09

So....no he didn't.

1994:

Lemieux GP-22, PTS-37, PPG- 1.68
Gretzky GP-81, PTS-130, PPG- 1.60

Lemieux takes that one, though it's hardly by a "convincing" margin. But I'll give it you anyway. A 28 year-old Mario Lemieux was better than a 33 year-old Wayne Gretzky.

Quote:
Why dont we mention that a 36 year old lemiuex scored 76 points in 43 games. A 38 lemieux scored 91 points in 67 games and this was in the middle of the dead puck era.
Why don't we mention that a 19 year-old Gretzky tied for 1st in scoring and won the MVP while a 19 year-old Lemieux couldn't crack the top 10 scorers.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:26 AM
  #64
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Wayne Gretzky easily. Too me the only other athlete who could compare to Gretzky is Tiger Woods

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:50 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Hey, a Gretzky vs. Lemieux thread...sweet.
Yeah, why don't we see these more often?

Cool avatar, BTW!

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Old
03-20-2008, 01:00 PM
  #66
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I would like to see a list of the records each one holds. I believe Gretzky holds more. Gretzky's point totals were so ridiculously higher than anyone before him, and only Lemieux has come close, who one could argue is as good as Gretzky. Jordan's point totals were not that much higher than his competition, and I beleive Kareem or Wilt might have a higher ppg average, I am not sure.

Gretzky's total points is almost 1000 more than the next person! that's about a third higher than the next person. Jordan isn't even the point leader in NBA history.

I would suggest Jordan was a more rounded player, since he was AWESOME defensively as well as offensively, but I don't know a player in any sport that was as offensively dominant as Gretzky was to hockey.

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Old
03-20-2008, 07:08 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I would like to see a list of the records each one holds. I believe Gretzky holds more. Gretzky's point totals were so ridiculously higher than anyone before him, and only Lemieux has come close, who one could argue is as good as Gretzky. Jordan's point totals were not that much higher than his competition, and I beleive Kareem or Wilt might have a higher ppg average, I am not sure.

Gretzky's total points is almost 1000 more than the next person! that's about a third higher than the next person. Jordan isn't even the point leader in NBA history.

I would suggest Jordan was a more rounded player, since he was AWESOME defensively as well as offensively, but I don't know a player in any sport that was as offensively dominant as Gretzky was to hockey.
I am no stat expert but Barry Bonds maybe. (I know he was cheating but ignore that and just look at what he did)

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Old
03-20-2008, 07:40 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by pkd88 View Post
I am no stat expert but Barry Bonds maybe. (I know he was cheating but ignore that and just look at what he did)
If Bonds had been Barroid in the late 80's and 90's yes.. but he was only so freakishly dominant for 4 or 5 years at the end of his career. He was an amazing overall player earlier and won 3 MVPs but he was not even the best offensive player then.... not like when he had this ridiculous .600 OBP and a Slugging Pct 100 points above the second guy.

He can't touch Gretzky or Jordan

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Old
03-20-2008, 08:28 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by flyin_finn View Post
Jordan's physique was so good that he was the only player to play in all games for Washington Wizards in 2003. At age of 40 he managed to reach 40 points in one game.

I think Gretzky was amazing but you could see him slowing down in his final seasons. In his last season he was no longer great - just good.

For sake of athleticism and coolness, I have to say Jordan.
Gretaky was far better as a New York Ranger than Jordan was as a Washington Wizard.

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Old
03-20-2008, 08:40 PM
  #70
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Gretzky but I'm biased

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Old
03-20-2008, 09:38 PM
  #71
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Wilt Chamberlain once averaged 50 points per game(and 25 rebounds or so and a few seasons that were close to as good)!!AVERAGED.....Wilt revolutionized basketball by blowing away records,who did that in the NHL?Gretzky....Jordan was great,I'm a Knick fan,Jordan broke my heart more than anyone he was so damn good but only Wilt compares with Gretzky.Jordans best scoring season was 37 ppg,great but not close to Wilt...Wilt scored 100 points in one game,ONE!

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Old
03-21-2008, 06:25 AM
  #72
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The Gretzky-Jordan debate is always interesting. 10 years ago I would have been saying JOrdan, but now not so much. For all the talk of "winner", remember it took Jordan 7 years to win a title. Not only that, until he decided that using John Paxson and Horace Grant as well as Pippen were a good idea, Detroit would just toy with them. Jordan could do anything he wanted on the court, and usually did, and then would see that Detroit had won the game. What impressed m most about Jordan was that his early career was made by going to the hoop, and his later career was made with the fadeaway and three point shot.

But let's get a few things on the record. First of all, I don't put much stock in awards. They are voted on, which brings in bias(including the one already mentioned about giving to someone other than Jordan.) All-defensive first team? Well, maybe he is, maybe he's on there because he's Michael Jordan and since the Bulls play a certain style, he looks good. As far as championships go, they both have a good resume. What jumps out at me is how often the championship in basketball is won by the team with the best player(note that Jordan's first retirement saw Hakeem Olajuwon win two titles, and there was very little doubt he wa the best player with Jordan gone.) Like has been mentioned, being the best basketball player has a far greater impact on the game itself than being the best hockey player(there is no goalie in basketball).

So you have to look at what they did compared to their peers. Jordan's best season was 1986-87, when he averaged 37.1 PPG. Domnique Wilkins finished second at 29. 28% difference. Jordan never again had more than 2.5 pt difference, save for 95-96, when he was nearly 4 pts ahead. So around 10% better than his peers. Gretzky had margins of 31, 65, 72, 79, 73, 74 and 75 before he began sharing the scoring title. All except the first total are 50% or more of the second place finisher's total.

I have to go with Gretzky.

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Old
03-21-2008, 06:25 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
you can argue that prime for prime mario was better than wayne. Which basketball player was better than jordan? Wilt 'ballhog' chamberlain, i dont think so.
Gretzky was by far the most dominating athlete in any sport ever to this day. Jordan was marginally better than the best of his day, Gretzky was nearly twice as good as the players of his day (if you only go by stats). Julius Erving was probably better than Jordan, but played in a time when the NBA wasn't largely followed or marketed.

Imagine Tiger Woods...twice as good as he is. THAT was Gretzky from 1979 through about 1994. Jordan would have had to score about 20 more points a bame to be considered in the same category. Granted, basketball is a different kind of game, and it is easy to run up your stats in it. But even saying that, Jordan is not the all-time leading scorer in any category in the NBA. Gretzky is far and away the highest scorer in the history of the NHL. And he won multiple championships, just like Jordan. Jordan could not have won without Pippin and Kerr and the others, but he certainly made them better. Ditto Gretzky. Gretzky on the Hartford Whalers of the early '80's may well have still led the NHL in scoring, but would not have scored over 200 points. But in saying that, I'm acknowledging how great he was. This is the WHALERS, for crying out loud! A terrible team! And who knows how many more goals Gretz would have scored, because he would not have had anyone to pass to who was any good! He would have had to score 100+ goals a year just to make the team competitive!

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03-21-2008, 06:26 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
you can argue that prime for prime mario was better than wayne. Which basketball player was better than jordan? Wilt 'ballhog' chamberlain, i dont think so.
Gretzky was by far the most dominating athlete in any sport ever to this day. Jordan was marginally better than the best of his day, Gretzky was nearly twice as good as the players of his day (if you only go by stats). Julius Erving was probably better than Jordan, but played in a time when the NBA wasn't largely followed or marketed.

Imagine Tiger Woods...twice as good as he is. THAT was Gretzky from 1979 through about 1994. Jordan would have had to score about 20 more points a game to be considered in the same category. Granted, basketball is a different kind of game, and it is easy to run up your stats in it. But even saying that, Jordan is not the all-time leading scorer in any category in the NBA. Gretzky is far and away the highest scorer in the history of the NHL. And he won multiple championships, just like Jordan. Jordan could not have won without Pippin and Kerr and the others, but he certainly made them better. Ditto Gretzky. Gretzky on the Hartford Whalers of the early '80's may well have still led the NHL in scoring, but would not have scored over 200 points. But in saying that, I'm acknowledging how great he was. This is the WHALERS, for crying out loud! A terrible team! And who knows how many more goals Gretz would have scored, because he would not have had anyone to pass to who was any good! He would have had to score 100+ goals a year just to make the team competitive!

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Old
03-22-2008, 03:10 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by jiggs 10 View Post
Gretzky was by far the most dominating athlete in any sport ever to this day.
Not that I'm siding with Jordan, but it can be argued that he wasn't even the most dominant hockey player ever. There are many athletes who have dominated their sport more than Gretzky did.

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