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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Gretzky vs. Jordan

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Old
03-22-2008, 11:43 AM
  #76
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Not that I'm siding with Jordan, but it can be argued that he wasn't even the most dominant hockey player ever. There are many athletes who have dominated their sport more than Gretzky did.
No, there are not. Gretzky won his league's scoring title for nearly a decade straight. No one in any other sport has every done something like that, not even Tiger Woods. Imagine if Roger Federer continued his domination for another 6 years...then you would be getting close. And Gretzky continued to be a threat and an ambassador for the sport for another decade, something Jordan couldn't do. He was not nearly as good after his baseball debacle, and let's not forget his Washington year(s). Gretzky never had a dropoff that dramatic. His last season, he was still one of the top 3 in assists in the NHL.

Heck, on scoring titles and championships alone, Kareem Abdul-Jabber is on par with Jordan!

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03-22-2008, 12:00 PM
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people need to realize how impressive it is to win an NBA championship, much less 6, without good big men on offense

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03-22-2008, 01:02 PM
  #78
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No, there are not. Gretzky won his league's scoring title for nearly a decade straight. No one in any other sport has every done something like that, not even Tiger Woods. Imagine if Roger Federer continued his domination for another 6 years...then you would be getting close. And Gretzky continued to be a threat and an ambassador for the sport for another decade, something Jordan couldn't do. He was not nearly as good after his baseball debacle, and let's not forget his Washington year(s). Gretzky never had a dropoff that dramatic. His last season, he was still one of the top 3 in assists in the NHL.

Heck, on scoring titles and championships alone, Kareem Abdul-Jabber is on par with Jordan!
Jordan also won the league's scoring title for nearly a decade straight. He also won the scoring title, made the all-defence team, and won the playoffs MVP in each of the 3 full seasons he played after the "baseball debacle," in addition to 2 league MVP's. So he was obviously nearly as good. He was a threat from his rookie season all the way to his final game with the Bulls. His Washington years weren't nearly as good but he was old and had been away from the game for 4 years. Gretzky declined as well but obviously the dropoff wouldn't be as dramatic since he wasn't away from the game for 4 years.

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03-22-2008, 02:54 PM
  #79
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Not that I'm siding with Jordan, but it can be argued that he wasn't even the most dominant hockey player ever. There are many athletes who have dominated their sport more than Gretzky did.
Some would argue that Wilt was better than Jordan as well.

But in terms of accomplishments, none are even close to TGO. He has virtually every record recorded.

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03-22-2008, 03:35 PM
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Only people that just started watching basketball in 1985 think that Jordan is a lock for the #1 spot.

Wilt, Russell, and the Big "O" are in the discussion every bit as much as Orr, Howe and Lemieux are in the discussion in hockey.

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03-22-2008, 03:59 PM
  #81
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Some would argue that Wilt was better than Jordan as well.

But in terms of accomplishments, none are even close to TGO. He has virtually every record recorded.
based on what is wilt better, cuz he had those stats in a lesser skilled era. Jordan has more rings, more mvps and a slightly higher ppg average. He is the better players, hands down.

You can argue lemiuex was better than gretzky, i mean if he didnt get injured, gretzky prolly wouldnt have those records anymore. Before his comeback in 2001, lemieux ppg average was well over 2.00

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03-22-2008, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Only people that just started watching basketball in 1985 think that Jordan is a lock for the #1 spot.

Wilt, Russell, and the Big "O" are in the discussion every bit as much as Orr, Howe and Lemieux are in the discussion in hockey.
what about kareem? He has more mvps and rings than wilt. All wilt has is better paper stats, well it helps if you play 9 minutes more per game and against weaker competition. The 1980s was a more talented decade than the 60s.

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03-22-2008, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Gretzky was a better hockey player than Jordan was a basketball player.

A great basketball player will dominate more than a great hockey player.
thats where the discussion should stop.

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03-22-2008, 05:02 PM
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It will be hard to find that dominated a sport the way Gretz did. Many of his records beat the second place guy by a ton, and for the most case it is not that way with Jordan. (Of course Jordan had a couple of encores and if he would have stayed in the league for those years, than most of his records would probably look like Gretzs'. But that is his own fault.) I think the closest player to Gretz in terms of dominating the entire sport is Babe Ruth who was hitting more home runs than many teams, when homers were not hit at a pace anywhere near what they are today. Or even in the past few years Barry Bonds was just dominating the sport of baseball. Jordan was clutch and I don't know if I would want anyone else in any sport on my team when it comes to the final game. He would always find a way to win the big games. So when it comes to the final game in a finals, or series, super bowl or whatever I would want Jordan. But for a season, or to build a team around I would take Gretz.
you have the greatest avatar EVER!!!!

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03-22-2008, 05:08 PM
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Jordan also won the league's scoring title for nearly a decade straight. He also won the scoring title, made the all-defence team, and won the playoffs MVP in each of the 3 full seasons he played after the "baseball debacle," in addition to 2 league MVP's. So he was obviously nearly as good. He was a threat from his rookie season all the way to his final game with the Bulls. His Washington years weren't nearly as good but he was old and had been away from the game for 4 years. Gretzky declined as well but obviously the dropoff wouldn't be as dramatic since he wasn't away from the game for 4 years.
Yes, but it's BASKETBALL! A sport that is not nearly as difficult as hockey! And Jordan barely won those scoring titles, as opposed to Gretzky, who could have been the leading scorer several times without ever even scoring a goal! That's like Jordan winning the scoring title just by his free-throws!

Whatever, no one can ever convince me Jordan was even the best basketball player, let alone the most dominant in sports. I grew up watching Dr. J, and he was every bit the player Jordan was, only without the gambling problems!

And a better dunker, too.

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03-22-2008, 05:41 PM
  #86
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based on what is wilt better, cuz he had those stats in a lesser skilled era. Jordan has more rings, more mvps and a slightly higher ppg average. He is the better players, hands down.

You can argue lemiuex was better than gretzky, i mean if he didnt get injured, gretzky prolly wouldnt have those records anymore. Before his comeback in 2001, lemieux ppg average was well over 2.00
Gretzky has more assists than anybody else has points. He has every single-season (goals, points, assists) and career record. Look at the best single-seasons in NHL history. The top-5 are TGO. Almost all of the top-10. So it isn't like he has the records by a little bit, he has them by a canyon-esque divide. We are talking about a player who would routinly win the Art Ross with assists alone... over a teammate of his.

As for Mario having the records, even at his best, he still fell short. Mario's career best is still 16 points behind Wayne. Heck, if you want to play the "What if" game, we could take on another 6-10 games (depending on what shedule you want to use) on Wayne's 205 point season to make the "new record" a jaw-dropping 232 points.

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03-22-2008, 05:45 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
Some would argue that Wilt was better than Jordan as well.

But in terms of accomplishments, none are even close to TGO. He has virtually every record recorded.
I can't really comment on Jordan as my knowledge of basketball simply isn't good enough. Like I said, I'm not siding with him here.

But once you adjust the stats you'll quickly notice that Gordie Howe in his best seasons was nearly as dominant offensively as Gretzky (and more dominant than Lemieux). He was also much more complete as a player and had a far longer prime (one point short of 20 straight seasons as a top 5 point producer). Then you've got a player like Orr who might not compare to Gretzky in greatness or stats, but can certainly be argued to do so in overall impact in his prime. Unlike Gretzky, he also dominated defensively.

Based on all this, Gretzky is not unquestionably the greatest or the most dominant ever hockey player IMO. He is unquestionably top 2 of all time in greatness and top 3 in dominance, but that's it. And that doesn't cut it against athletes who are unquestionably the best ever in their respective sports.

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03-22-2008, 05:50 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
Gretzky has more assists than anybody else has points. He has every single-season (goals, points, assists) and career record. Look at the best single-seasons in NHL history. The top-5 are TGO. Almost all of the top-10. So it isn't like he has the records by a little bit, he has them by a canyon-esque divide. We are talking about a player who would routinly win the Art Ross with assists alone... over a teammate of his.

As for Mario having the records, even at his best, he still fell short. Mario's career best is still 16 points behind Wayne. Heck, if you want to play the "What if" game, we could take on another 6-10 games (depending on what shedule you want to use) on Wayne's 205 point season to make the "new record" a jaw-dropping 232 points.
Yeah but jordan was also a 9 time all defensive team player, when was gretzky ever a defensive forward? Its like getting nominated for the franke j selke trophy 9 times. Jordan played both ends of the game to perfection. Without jordan bulls arent even contenders. Wothout gretzky, oilers win another cup.

Lemieux also had a season where he scored 160 points in 60 games. If he would have played the remaining 24 games, his points totals would have surpassed 220. There was also another year where he scored 199 points while missing 5-7 games.

Lets not forget that during the 80s penguins were a horrible team. Gretzky had the best goalie of the 80s. He had the best scoring defenceman of the 80s, and 3 hall of fame level forwards from the 80s like kurri, messier and anderson. He was on a dream team, while lemiiuex was on a crap team until the jagr gang came along.

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03-22-2008, 06:01 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sampe View Post
I can't really comment on Jordan as my knowledge of basketball simply isn't good enough. Like I said, I'm not siding with him here.

But once you adjust the stats you'll quickly notice that Gordie Howe in his best seasons was nearly as dominant offensively as Gretzky (and more dominant than Lemieux). He was also much more complete as a player and had a far longer prime (one point short of 20 straight seasons as a top 5 point producer). Then you've got a player like Orr who might not compare to Gretzky in greatness or stats, but can certainly be argued to do so in overall impact in his prime. Unlike Gretzky, he also dominated defensively.

Based on all this, Gretzky is not unquestionably the greatest or the most dominant ever hockey player IMO. He is unquestionably top 2 of all time in greatness and top 3 in dominance, but that's it. And that doesn't cut it against athletes who are unquestionably the best ever in their respective sports.
And what sport is their with somebody who is the unquestioned greatest?

Babe Ruth? Too fat to field. Could barely run the bases, let alone steal any.
Jordan? Never had games like Wilt did.
Montana? Some call him a product of the system.

There is always a short list in every sport.

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03-22-2008, 06:16 PM
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Yeah but jordan was also a 9 time all defensive team player, when was gretzky ever a defensive forward? Its like getting nominated for the franke j selke trophy 9 times. Jordan played both ends of the game to perfection.
That is like saying Babe Ruth wasn't great because he didn't steal bases.

If Jordan was scoring 180% the points of the #2 guy, nobody would care about his defense. That is just how dominant offensively Gretzky was. More so, Gretzky made a defensive impact by just stepping on the ice. You immediately caused the opposition to respect where he was, limiting their offense.

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Without jordan bulls arent even contenders. Wothout gretzky, oilers win another cup.
Tough to compare the two. Take any elite player from your 5 basketball starters and of course it will have a greater impact than removing one of your hockey starters. Such is the nature of a game with larger teams.

Lets stop acting like the Bulls were just Jordan. A host of other elite players made up that dynasty. Jordan was the obvious centerpiece, but that was a good team as well.

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Lemieux also had a season where he scored 160 points in 60 games. If he would have played the remaining 24 games, his points totals would have surpassed 220. There was also another year where he scored 199 points while missing 5-7 games.
Those are some of the greatest single-seasons ever. Now, knowing how great they were, realize that Gretzky had a half-dozen where he put up points at a similar (in some cases, greater) clip. Think about that. Mario's best seasons ever would only be somewhere in Wayne's top-5.

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Lets not forget that during the 80s penguins were a horrible team. Gretzky had the best goalie of the 80s. He had the best scoring defenceman of the 80s, and 3 hall of fame level forwards from the 80s like kurri, messier and anderson. He was on a dream team, while lemiiuex was on a crap team until the jagr gang came along.
Lets forget about the urban legends and look at reality. Both Wayne and Mario started out on crap teams. Oilers built up to a dynasty a couple seasons faster than the Penguins did, but BOTH Wayne and Mario benefitted from having a host of Hall of Fame caliber players around them. Want to know a little secret? There were just as many Hall of Famers (Murphy, Coffey, Mullen, Francis, etc.) and elite players (Tocchet, Stevens, Ulf, etc) on those Penguin teams as there were on the Oilers.

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03-22-2008, 07:06 PM
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And what sport is their with somebody who is the unquestioned greatest?

Babe Ruth? Too fat to field. Could barely run the bases, let alone steal any.
Jordan? Never had games like Wilt did.
Montana? Some call him a product of the system.

There is always a short list in every sport.
Well, I was initially responding to the claim that "Gretzky was by far the most dominating athlete in any sport ever". I admit that I took that pretty literally. If you guys were only referring to the most popular North American team sports, then I stand corrected.

But if you want an example, I can give you the most popular sport in the world. No soccer player beats Pelé in greatness, dominance or completeness and there's a decent chance that he's also the most naturally gifted individual to ever play the game. The only player who has any kind of chance in a debate against Pelé IMO is Franz Beckenbauer, and that's only because the two played completely different positions. Beckenbauer however rarely makes the top 2 in these type of discussions - in hockey terms, you can think of him as a slightly less gifted version of Bobby Orr (or a slightly more gifted version of Doug Harvey) who had a longer prime and a more successful career than Orr did. He often ranks anywhere between 3rd and 5th of all time.

Another problem for Beckenbauer's case is that in quite possibly the only ever game he played against Pelé, he got owned just as badly as Ray Bourque once did against Mario Lemieux. The only difference and the only fortunate thing for Beckenbauer being that Pelé wasted the glorious scoring chance he created for himself by shooting wide.

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03-22-2008, 08:09 PM
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Well, I was initially responding to the claim that "Gretzky was by far the most dominating athlete in any sport ever". I admit that I took that pretty literally. If you guys were only referring to the most popular North American team sports, then I stand corrected.

But if you want an example, I can give you the most popular sport in the world. No soccer player beats Pelé in greatness, dominance or completeness and there's a decent chance that he's also the most naturally gifted individual to ever play the game. The only player who has any kind of chance in a debate against Pelé IMO is Franz Beckenbauer, and that's only because the two played completely different positions. Beckenbauer however rarely makes the top 2 in these type of discussions - in hockey terms, you can think of him as a slightly less gifted version of Bobby Orr (or a slightly more gifted version of Doug Harvey) who had a longer prime and a more successful career than Orr did. He often ranks anywhere between 3rd and 5th of all time.

Another problem for Beckenbauer's case is that in quite possibly the only ever game he played against Pelé, he got owned just as badly as Ray Bourque once did against Mario Lemieux. The only difference and the only fortunate thing for Beckenbauer being that Pelé wasted the glorious scoring chance he created for himself by shooting wide.
I don't know enough about soccer to offer an opinion. Though everybody has heard of Pele.

As far as "greatest ever" I would agree. I don't think there can be such a thing, as "greatness" is always subjective. Statistically speaking, Gretzky's numbers are just crazy. But not every sport translates into numbers as well (boxing for example... not every win is the same).

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03-22-2008, 10:30 PM
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And what sport is their with somebody who is the unquestioned greatest?

Babe Ruth? Too fat to field. Could barely run the bases, let alone steal any.
This is a widely held misconception amongst people who are only casual followers of baseball. Babe Ruth was an excellent athlete, you're probably just used to seeing pictures of him from later in his career, by which time he was sporting a beer gut. He wasn't a prolific base stealer, but he topped out at 17 swipes in a couple of seasons. For his career, he stole 123 bases and was caught stealing 117 times. When it came to fielding, Ruth was average at worst.

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03-22-2008, 10:40 PM
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This is a widely held misconception amongst people who are only casual followers of baseball. Babe Ruth was an excellent athlete, you're probably just used to seeing pictures of him from later in his career, by which time he was sporting a beer gut. He wasn't a prolific base stealer, but he topped out at 17 swipes in a couple of seasons. For his career, he stole 123 bases and was caught stealing 117 times. When it came to fielding, Ruth was average at worst.
Don't forget also that he was 94-46 as a pitcher, and regarded as the best lefthander in the American League during his time in Boston. That's the reason I consider him the greatest player ever in baseball. He was leaps and bounds the best hitter of his tim, and was one of the best pitchers.

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03-23-2008, 05:12 AM
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Don't forget also that he was 94-46 as a pitcher, and regarded as the best lefthander in the American League during his time in Boston. That's the reason I consider him the greatest player ever in baseball. He was leaps and bounds the best hitter of his tim, and was one of the best pitchers.
Imagine what he could have done without is diet of booze, hot dogs, cigars and hookers.

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03-23-2008, 07:28 AM
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Don't forget also that he was 94-46 as a pitcher, and regarded as the best lefthander in the American League during his time in Boston. That's the reason I consider him the greatest player ever in baseball. He was leaps and bounds the best hitter of his tim, and was one of the best pitchers.
Ruth was a great pitcher, I consider him the greatest baseball player for that reason as well.

If Ruth were pitching today and just starting out his career, he would never have even been converted to a full time position player and we would have missed out on perhaps the greatest offensive player in MLB history.

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03-23-2008, 09:18 AM
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No, there are not. Gretzky won his league's scoring title for nearly a decade straight. No one in any other sport has every done something like that, not even Tiger Woods.
Jordan won the NBA scoring title every full season he played before his two Washington Years.


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03-23-2008, 12:13 PM
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Well, I don't even consider Gretzky Top 5 skaters of all time.

And I've always had an arguement between Wilt The Stilt and Air Jordan as to who was the best NBA player of all time.

Wilt The Stilt statistically was and will always be a monster, this is a guy who one season averaged 50 points a game and 20 rebounds!!!

Also Wilt owns 16 of the Top 20 highest point total in a single game.

He's also the oldest on the list.

In his day remember there was no 3 point line.

However Jordan of course almost single handedly lead the Bulls to not one but two threepeats ( could have been 8 in a row had he not semi-retired ).

But to me this is no question, Jordan by miles.

I would have actually asked who was more dominating, Jordan or Pele? Of course again you're forgetting Wilt The Stilt and how great he was.

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03-23-2008, 12:23 PM
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I would have actually asked who was more dominating, Jordan or Pele?
And you would have asked this on a hockey forum? Interesting.

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03-23-2008, 12:37 PM
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And you would have asked this on a hockey forum? Interesting.
Oooops, lol, hey I just joined give me a break.

Yeah sorry, the thing about the NHL is there's never really been a complete monster in the game.

You can point to Bobby Orr and The Rocket but the fact that hockey differs in 3 very key elements, that being line changes ( Basketball in general you're usually using 7-8 guys in a game ), goalies, assists vs. goals.

Basketball is who scores the more points and every game players score points.

I think hockey is best comparable to european football no??

In which case if you wanted to you could ask the question Gretzky or Pele?

In the NBA it's eras, Jordan vs. Chamberlain basically, but you get a good feel for who dominates and certainly nobody aside from those two guys dominated for more than a year or two.

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