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What would it take for Ottawa to move up into the top 5 or 10 in the draft?

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Old
03-19-2008, 10:46 PM
  #26
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What would it take? Losing all of their remaining games.

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03-19-2008, 11:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Kaptain Bégin View Post
If I'm Jay Feaster, I will take some time to think about take Volchenkov, Vermette and a 2nd or 2rd for a top-5 pick because he must save his job and need help right now. If not, he will probably say good bye vinny in a couple of year.
god you people never give up

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03-19-2008, 11:08 PM
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god you people never give up
Well, he's right.

Richards is gone, and the team will still suck.

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03-19-2008, 11:10 PM
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Vermette/Meszaros + 1st should be enough to get into top 8 or so.

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03-20-2008, 09:19 AM
  #30
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You want to move into the top 5 (from like 25 or so), and you're not willing to move Stillman?
Stillman is UFA - so no, he's not going to make any notable difference in a trade to move up.

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Originally Posted by madpooh View Post
How about ottawa gets better scouting since 2002 they have less than 5 guys make any impact in the NHL and no one really out of the 1st round
Jarmo Kekalainen says hi.

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03-20-2008, 09:29 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by spanky4681 View Post
Vermette/Meszaros + 1st should be enough to get into top 8 or so.
No it wouldn't.

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Old
03-20-2008, 09:30 AM
  #32
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No it wouldn't.
Yes it would.

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03-20-2008, 09:34 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Redden Punches Faces View Post
Yes it would.
Trading RFAs who want more than they're worth doesn't come close to closing the gap between a mid-20s pick and a top 8 pick.

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03-20-2008, 09:50 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Stillman is UFA - so no, he's not going to make any notable difference in a trade to move up.


Jarmo Kekalainen says hi.
Kekalainen was a big part of our success but we've also lost Timmins, Marshall Johnston and recently Jay Feaster... the brain drain has been relentless.

As for the OP, I'll remind people that we also hold CHI's 2nd round pick, likely to be fairly high.
If Fedotenko + 2 2nds could land a top 4 pick, then it's possible Vermette + 25ish overall + 35ish overall could land a top 10 pick this year. Most experts say there's a drop after the first 7-8 picks, well if a GM sitting 9th sees the 7-8 players he wanted drafted ahead of him he may think of moving back and the package mentionned above becomes pretty damn appealing.

Just because one of the best teams in the league can make Vermette and/or Meszaros expendable (arguably) doesn't mean they have no value, both are great young players. If signed to an RFA offer, the Sens would likely get compensation of a 1st and 3rd for Vermette, 1st, 2nd and 3rd for Meszaros...

Fans of teams in the top 10 may not like it but packages centred around Vermette or Meszaros could very well land a top 10 pick.

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03-20-2008, 10:12 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Redden Punches Faces View Post
Yes it would.
I don't see how it would be enough. An underachieving defenceman (who may have upside but is already looking for too much money), a possible top-6 forward who is also going to want a big pay raise, and a pick that is gonna be 20th or lower (hopefully 30th) In a draft year like this one, this is not enough to get you into the top 10.

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03-20-2008, 10:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
I don't see how it would be enough. An underachieving defenceman (who may have upside but is already looking for too much money), a possible top-6 forward who is also going to want a big pay raise, and a pick that is gonna be 20th or lower (hopefully 30th) In a draft year like this one, this is not enough to get you into the top 10.
Meszaros is too young to be underachieving, rather I think you still have to refer to him as developping. He's an experienced young defenceman with a lot of upside, he's having a bit of a tough time now and again but lets not pretend he has no value.

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03-20-2008, 10:21 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by mayoradamwest View Post
Meszaros is too young to be underachieving, rather I think you still have to refer to him as developping. He's an experienced young defenceman with a lot of upside, he's having a bit of a tough time now and again but lets not pretend he has no value.
It all depends what kind of contract he wants...and until he's signed he doesn't have loads of trade value imo. If he wants a big raise after a less than stellar season, then you are paying entirely for his potential.

I'm not saying he can't be good or great...just that his current play and status work against him.

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03-20-2008, 10:25 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by spanky4681 View Post
Vermette/Meszaros + 1st should be enough to get into top 8 or so.
In terms of value, Vermette should not be on the same level as Meszaros. When it comes to picks, everybody is either incredibly overating draft picks or underrating the Sens players. Just because fans offer them up in trade proposals doesn't mean they are bad players/not worth anything.

I could see GMs around the league..."well I would have made the deal but it's pretty obvious from all the trade proposals your fans are making that there isn't a good buzz around said player, so I'm going to have to pass."

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03-20-2008, 10:27 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by spanky4681 View Post
Vermette/Meszaros + 1st should be enough to get into top 8 or so.
WTF?
Meszaros>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>top8 pick

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03-20-2008, 10:27 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
It all depends what kind of contract he wants...and until he's signed he doesn't have loads of trade value imo. If he wants a big raise after a less than stellar season, then you are paying entirely for his potential.

I'm not saying he can't be good or great...just that his current play and status work against him.
Even if he makes 6 million next year, he's still more valuable than a prospect who may or may not pan out. Contract has nothing to do with it if the team has the cap space, personally I'd rather have an up and coming player making 3.5 million despite maybe being 1-3 years away from his prime than a prospect who is 4-7 years away.

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03-20-2008, 10:38 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by mayoradamwest View Post
Even if he makes 6 million next year, he's still more valuable than a prospect who may or may not pan out. Contract has nothing to do with it if the team has the cap space, personally I'd rather have an up and coming player making 3.5 million despite maybe being 1-3 years away from his prime than a prospect who is 4-7 years away.
OK...but you admit that Meszaros making $6 million is worth a lot less than Meszaros making $3 million? All I'm saying is that their are intangibles that have to do with the salary cap that devalue a player like Meszaros in any attempt to move up in the draft.

If the Sens can find a trading partner (like they did with Havlat) that is willing to pay whatever...then it might work but that team would also probably value their high draft pick more as well.

He's not signed. He's slumping. He wants a significant raise (based on some of what I've read). While I think he's still a good player that could fill Redden's role on the powerplay next season, his trade value is probably at the lowest it's ever been.

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03-20-2008, 10:38 AM
  #42
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Trading RFAs who want more than they're worth doesn't come close to closing the gap between a mid-20s pick and a top 8 pick.
Yes it does. Check and Mate, sucker.

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03-20-2008, 10:39 AM
  #43
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Yes it does.
Oh...thanks for clearing that up for me.

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03-20-2008, 10:53 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by captain AARON MAIDEN View Post
WTF?
Meszaros>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>top8 pick
in recent drafts (maybe the last 3 years) ya you might be right, but in the next two drafts there is no way a team would part with their 1st rounder, let alone a top 8 first rounder for meszaros. we would have to add to that deal to get a 1st, not just vermette and our 1st imo

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03-20-2008, 10:55 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
OK...but you admit that Meszaros making $6 million is worth a lot less than Meszaros making $3 million? All I'm saying is that their are intangibles that have to do with the salary cap that devalue a player like Meszaros in any attempt to move up in the draft.

If the Sens can find a trading partner (like they did with Havlat) that is willing to pay whatever...then it might work but that team would also probably value their high draft pick more as well.

He's not signed. He's slumping. He wants a significant raise (based on some of what I've read). While I think he's still a good player that could fill Redden's role on the powerplay next season, his trade value is probably at the lowest it's ever been.
So Meszaros at around..... 3.5 million would be worth it then?

Don't worry, regardless of what GM's might read young offensive d-men with lots of upside are generally pretty valuable. He makes a lot of mistakes that young players make, but that is what makes him more valuable; he's already gone through a lot of the trials and shown himself to be a capable nhl defenceman. If you were to pick say.... Drew Doughty for the sake of argument, how long do you really think it will be before he makes it into the NHL? 3 or 4 years? Watch Meszaros play, and I'll bet you'd be willing to give up a top 10 pick for him.

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03-20-2008, 10:56 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
in recent drafts (maybe the last 3 years) ya you might be right, but in the next two drafts there is no way a team would part with their 1st rounder, let alone a top 8 first rounder for meszaros. we would have to add to that deal to get a 1st, not just vermette and our 1st imo
Vermette +1st, I can see. Meszaros+1st, not unless it's for the first overall pick which obviously isn't going to happen.

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03-20-2008, 11:01 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by mayoradamwest View Post
So Meszaros at around..... 3.5 million would be worth it then?

Don't worry, regardless of what GM's might read young offensive d-men with lots of upside are generally pretty valuable. He makes a lot of mistakes that young players make, but that is what makes him more valuable; he's already gone through a lot of the trials and shown himself to be a capable nhl defenceman. If you were to pick say.... Drew Doughty for the sake of argument, how long do you really think it will be before he makes it into the NHL? 3 or 4 years? Watch Meszaros play, and I'll bet you'd be willing to give up a top 10 pick for him.
That part's really funny.

I've seen him play. He turns the puck over a lot and avoids contact. I'd never trade a top 8 pick for him...even with Ottawa's first coming back with him. Especially if I my draft pick has a shot at Doughty.

If a team is looking for an immediate impact...yeah they'd probably rather have Meszaros than a top 8 draft pick. But you probably won't find too many people that are worried about how long it takes a prospect to develop.

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03-20-2008, 11:13 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Ismellofhockey View Post
Kekalainen was a big part of our success but we've also lost Timmins, Marshall Johnston and recently Jay Feaster... the brain drain has been relentless.

As for the OP, I'll remind people that we also hold CHI's 2nd round pick, likely to be fairly high.
If Fedotenko + 2 2nds could land a top 4 pick, then it's possible Vermette + 25ish overall + 35ish overall could land a top 10 pick this year. Most experts say there's a drop after the first 7-8 picks, well if a GM sitting 9th sees the 7-8 players he wanted drafted ahead of him he may think of moving back and the package mentionned above becomes pretty damn appealing.

Just because one of the best teams in the league can make Vermette and/or Meszaros expendable (arguably) doesn't mean they have no value, both are great young players. If signed to an RFA offer, the Sens would likely get compensation of a 1st and 3rd for Vermette, 1st, 2nd and 3rd for Meszaros...

Fans of teams in the top 10 may not like it but packages centred around Vermette or Meszaros could very well land a top 10 pick.
The Tank + 2 2nds deal tells us nothing about the potential for a trade this year.
That was one bad deal by a green GM. And, for every deal like this, there were probably several hundred that other GMs turned down. The only thing we conclude from this is that every once in a blue moon a GM does something stupid.

Second, this draft is a lot deeper than just 7 - 8. Burke and others have said that the top seven are in a tier above the next 10 players, but teams drafting in the 8 - 15 range are still going to have a great shot at a player this year. You're going to have a very hard time prying away top 15 picks at the draft.

Now, getting back to the OP, packages around Vermette/Meszaros may well be at the same level of value at as a top 10 pick. But, there have been relatively few deals of that nature over the years for a reason. Teams holding low picks are rebuilding and more interested in future potential than short-term bumps (particularly with UFA age being so low) and vet teams like Ottawa want to hold onto their players for immediate contention. This will be particularly true if, as I hope, the SENS win it all this Spring.

So, it is nice to talk about possibilities here, but at the end of the day, Meszaros and Vermette will be Senators next fall and Ottawa will be drafting late in the first round.

BTW, doesn't Redden's situation make a trade of Meszaros particularly unlikely?

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:17 AM
  #49
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That part's really funny.

I've seen him play. He turns the puck over a lot and avoids contact. I'd never trade a top 8 pick for him...even with Ottawa's first coming back with him. Especially if I my draft pick has a shot at Doughty.

If a team is looking for an immediate impact...yeah they'd probably rather have Meszaros than a top 8 draft pick. But you probably won't find too many people that are worried about how long it takes a prospect to develop.
If you take Doughty this year, he'll probably have a few years where he gives the puck away and makes a lot of mistakes.

Total NHL gp 237 goals 26 assists 81 points 107 +28 . And he is turning 23 in October. Not to mention he already has a lot of playoff experience.

In comparison:Brent Burns 258 26 61 87 +10

Pitkanen who is 25 ;261 33 106 139 +10

How many other defencemen are there around that age in the NHL? Not too many. Draft picks are great year, but are you just going to turn around in 4 years and trade away Doughty when he's having his growing pains in favour of some highly touted pick?

Most guys at 23 are in the AHL learning the craft. Meszaros at that age already has more playoff experience than some people get over their entire careers.

I really do like how you suggest people don't mind waiting for draft picks to develop, but that Meszaros wouldn't be worth a pick as he is..... still developping.

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03-20-2008, 11:19 AM
  #50
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So, it is nice to talk about possibilities here, but at the end of the day, Meszaros and Vermette will be Senators next fall and Ottawa will be drafting late in the first round.

BTW, doesn't Redden's situation make a trade of Meszaros particularly unlikely?
It's extremely unlikely he'd get dealt unless Murray can find somebody better. No way he'd give him up for a simple draft pick though.

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