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What would it take for Ottawa to move up into the top 5 or 10 in the draft?

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:22 AM
  #51
IHWR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoradamwest View Post
If you take Doughty this year, he'll probably have a few years where he gives the puck away and makes a lot of mistakes.

Total NHL gp 237 goals 26 assists 81 points 107 +28 . And he is turning 23 in October. Not to mention he already has a lot of playoff experience.

In comparison:Brent Burns 258 26 61 87 +10

Pitkanen who is 25 ;261 33 106 139 +10

How many other defencemen are there around that age in the NHL? Not too many. Draft picks are great year, but are you just going to turn around in 4 years and trade away Doughty when he's having his growing pains in favour of some highly touted pick?

Most guys at 23 are in the AHL learning the craft. Meszaros at that age already has more playoff experience than some people get over their entire careers.

I really do like how you suggest people don't mind waiting for draft picks to develop, but that Meszaros wouldn't be worth a pick as he is..... still developping.
You're being a silly goose.

It's not about who will be better next season. It's about the long-term. And long term, Doughty will be a much better, well rounded player than Meszaros imo. So he might not have an impact for a few seasons? That only affects teams that are planning on being playoff contenders, which is a lofty goal for anyone drafting in the top 8 next year (not saying they can't...).

If Meszaros is as awesome as Sens fans are telling me...maybe you should just keep him.

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03-20-2008, 11:24 AM
  #52
Cherith Cutestory
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"If a team is looking for an immediate impact...yeah they'd probably rather have Meszaros than a top 8 draft pick."

Between the 2 bottom teams (Tampa and LA) Tampa would be looking for that immediate impact. Only problem with Tampa is that they are unlikely to give Ottawa a top-5 pick when they're gonna face us so much in the future for a guy who may or may not pan out.
If you expand this to include St Louis, Atlanta and the Isles I would pick St. Louis as that team looking for an immediate impact. Out of ALL of those teams, we're most likely to get that top 8 pick from St. Louis, only thing is what else would they want other than Meszaros?

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:27 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
"If a team is looking for an immediate impact...yeah they'd probably rather have Meszaros than a top 8 draft pick."

Between the 2 bottom teams (Tampa and LA) Tampa would be looking for that immediate impact. Only problem with Tampa is that they are unlikely to give Ottawa a top-5 pick when they're gonna face us so much in the future for a guy who may or may not pan out.
If you expand this to include St Louis, Atlanta and the Isles I would pick St. Louis as that team looking for an immediate impact. Out of ALL of those teams, we're most likely to get that top 8 pick from St. Louis, only thing is what else would they want other than Meszaros?
For most of these teams, it'd be really hard to pry away a top 8-10 pick from them and the compensation would have to be pretty substantial.

I don't think Meszaros + Ottawa's first is enough. It's not a knock on Meszaros, it's a compliment to the top end prospects in this year's draft and I can see why Ottawa would be interested in moving up...almost every team would.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:28 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
The Tank + 2 2nds deal tells us nothing about the potential for a trade this year.
That was one bad deal by a green GM. And, for every deal like this, there were probably several hundred that other GMs turned down. The only thing we conclude from this is that every once in a blue moon a GM does something stupid.

Second, this draft is a lot deeper than just 7 - 8. Burke and others have said that the top seven are in a tier above the next 10 players, but teams drafting in the 8 - 15 range are still going to have a great shot at a player this year. You're going to have a very hard time prying away top 15 picks at the draft.

Now, getting back to the OP, packages around Vermette/Meszaros may well be at the same level of value at as a top 10 pick. But, there have been relatively few deals of that nature over the years for a reason. Teams holding low picks are rebuilding and more interested in future potential than short-term bumps (particularly with UFA age being so low) and vet teams like Ottawa want to hold onto their players for immediate contention. This will be particularly true if, as I hope, the SENS win it all this Spring.

So, it is nice to talk about possibilities here, but at the end of the day, Meszaros and Vermette will be Senators next fall and Ottawa will be drafting late in the first round.

BTW, doesn't Redden's situation make a trade of Meszaros particularly unlikely
Great points all around.

You don't see deals like this precisely for those reasons. That's also why it's nearly impossible to find a fair deal on a message board. I can't fathom trading Vermette and Meszaros for a pick at Ottawa's current stage of competitiveness.

The only time you see these type of deals, is when a team has to unload a superstar player, for whatever reason. The biggest deal we've seen, was the Yashin one, and, that took a desperate GM, when Ottawa was unloading a superstar.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
You're being a silly goose.

It's not about who will be better next season. It's about the long-term. And long term, Doughty will be a much better, well rounded player than Meszaros imo. So he might not have an impact for a few seasons? That only affects teams that are planning on being playoff contenders, which is a lofty goal for anyone drafting in the top 8 next year (not saying they can't...).

If Meszaros is as awesome as Sens fans are telling me...maybe you should just keep him.



No he won't.

(your debating skills are so overwhelming, I just had to try out some of your methods.)


and ok then.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:29 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by discostu View Post
Great points all around.

You don't see deals like this precisely for those reasons. That's also why it's nearly impossible to find a fair deal on a message board. I can't fathom trading Vermette and Meszaros for a pick at Ottawa's current stage of competitiveness.

The only time you see these type of deals, is when a team has to unload a superstar player, for whatever reason. The biggest deal we've seen, was the Yashin one, and, that took a desperate GM, when Ottawa was unloading a superstar.
and is also frequently mentioned as being up there amongst the worst trades of all time.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:32 AM
  #57
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What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:34 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoradamwest View Post
[/B]


No he won't.

(your debating skills are so overwhelming, I just had to try out some of your methods.)


and ok then.
Now you're being the silliest goose.

Feel free to evaluate prospects anyway you like. I think you are really overrating Meszaros...but that's cool.

Doughty is considered a top 5 pick by most and by myself. I think his ceiling is much higher than Meszaros's but hey...what do I know?

Just keep Meszaros then...I don't see Ottawa trading him anyway.

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03-20-2008, 11:35 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008
Way too much.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:36 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008
Too much now. I don't think Ottawa has the right pieces to successfully move up without moving a key guy...which they won't do.

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Old
03-20-2008, 01:17 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008
Only one HF would somebody give up a pick, a Selke worthy all-around impressive 2nd line capable center, and a young still developing Dman...for an unkown.


Its amazing how overrated draft picks are on this board.

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Old
03-20-2008, 04:41 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008
Big pass from an Ottawa POV.

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Old
03-20-2008, 08:30 PM
  #63
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Big pass from an Ottawa POV.
The purpose of this proposal was more to find out the value of a likely top-8 pick in this years draft. Granted it may seem like alot to give up, but you've gotta start somewhere on the issue. The thread is titled 'what would it take...', well this is a starting package for what is supposed to be one of the deepest drafts in many years. My argument is that Meszaros and our 1st is a good start, but Vermette would not cut it as the top-6 roster forward a team would want in return.

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Old
03-20-2008, 09:30 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
The purpose of this proposal was more to find out the value of a likely top-8 pick in this years draft. Granted it may seem like alot to give up, but you've gotta start somewhere on the issue. The thread is titled 'what would it take...', well this is a starting package for what is supposed to be one of the deepest drafts in many years. My argument is that Meszaros and our 1st is a good start, but Vermette would not cut it as the top-6 roster forward a team would want in return.
Trading Fisher would be completely counter-productive for a contending team. Not to mention Meszaros AND the 1st round pick. If Murray pulled a deal like that, he'd be fired almost immediately. That's a big overpayment IMO.

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Old
03-20-2008, 10:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008
As I said earlier ... Ottawa won't actually give what St. Louis is looking for. However, if the Senators inexplicably called with this offer [less the presigned contract for Meszaros], the Blues take it and run laughing hysterically before anyone has a chance to think twice.

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03-20-2008, 10:13 PM
  #66
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As I said earlier ... Ottawa won't actually give what St. Louis is looking for. However, if the Senators inexplicably called with this offer [less the presigned contract for Meszaros], the Blues take it and run laughing hysterically before anyone has a chance to think twice.
Exactly, I'd love it if Ottawa could nab a high first rounder in this draft, but realistically the Sens don't have anything they can afford to give up that will yield one. I highly doubt we can package quantity for quality. I'll be happy if they just walk out of there with Chet Pickard and a puck-moving d-man like Voynov or ideally Del Zotto.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd like to wish Bobby Orr a happy 60th birthday.

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Old
03-20-2008, 10:24 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
What about this?

To St. Louis: Meszaros (sign at 3 mil. per year for 4 years)
Mike Fisher
Ottawa's 1st in 2008

To Ottawa: St. Louis' 1st in 2008
Fisher's got a (limited) NMC.

I know it doesn't technically kick in until July 1, but you'd be burning bridges with every free-agent you ever want to re-sign if you trade him at the draft.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:58 PM
  #68
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fisher, heatley, spezza, alfie, phillips, and volchenkov are untouchable due to their roles on the team and the new contracts they all signed.

the picks i would target if i were murray would be phoenix, chicago, and st louis - 3 teams with great prospect bases that would like to contend/make the playoffs next year. The players ottawa would want from the top-end of the draft would be one of the top end forwards like hodgson, wilson, or beach (murray would love him). Basically, if any of the 3 teams mentioned are sitting with a pick in the 5-9 range, i wouldnt be suprised if murray made an offer.

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03-21-2008, 06:59 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
fisher, heatley, spezza, alfie, phillips, and volchenkov are untouchable due to their roles on the team and the new contracts they all signed.

the picks i would target if i were murray would be phoenix, chicago, and st louis - 3 teams with great prospect bases that would like to contend/make the playoffs next year. The players ottawa would want from the top-end of the draft would be one of the top end forwards like hodgson, wilson, or beach (murray would love him). Basically, if any of the 3 teams mentioned are sitting with a pick in the 5-9 range, i wouldnt be suprised if murray made an offer.
I can't speak for Phoenix or Chicago, but from the Blues perspective - Ottawa doesn't have enough to offer to swap spots. Ottawa doesn't have the scoring necessary to make it worth St. Louis's while to trade. (Yes, we have a solid prospect base, but adding a guy like Vermette or Mez - adds nothing to our line up).

We have plently of young dmen in Woywitka, Wagner, and Polak - all of which should be on the roster next year. Not to mention Johnson. Mez isn't a PP QB so he would be redundant to the Blues. Vermette - adding a 3rd line center doesn't help this team help its scoring increase - so he adds little to our roster. Why would we trade a chance at a top pairing dman or top line forward for a 2nd pairing guy and a late 1st rounder (which would be like a 2nd pairing guy or 2 line forward). Giving up the best player in a trade (based on potential at this point) doesn't actually improve the Blues.

The pieces you would be willing to give up don't improve the Blues and therefore there is no reason to make a trade from the Blues perspective.

I will say this again, I think the Mods should make one thread devoted to all of the teams in the back 3rd of the draft trying to move up into a lotto spot.

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Old
03-21-2008, 07:53 AM
  #70
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i just want ottawa to be able to draft Del Zotto or Colborne, no need to get Schenn/Beach, etc, especially at the cost of Fisher.

I'd be happy if we moved up to 12/13, not 8th

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Old
03-21-2008, 09:46 AM
  #71
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Bottom line: Ottawa will not move up in the draft unless the trade key players, nothing more about it than that. If Murray was really serious about moving up, he would have to entertain the idea of trading Fisher, Volchenkov, Schubert, the list goes on. Vermette, Mezaros and a 1st isn't going to cut it for a top 5-8 pick

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Old
03-21-2008, 10:17 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by spanky4681 View Post
Vermette/Meszaros + 1st should be enough to get into top 8 or so.
I think everyone is overlooking the team most likely to trade their first and that's the Columbus Blue Jackets.

I think both of these guys would grab the Jackets attention and I think they'll most certainly be willing to wheel and deal a top 8 pick if they end up there - which looks more and more likely.

They, more than any other team, need to make the playoffs next year and have the assets and cap space to address some serious needs this offseason.

I think Ottawa and the Jackets could make sensible trading partners come draft time. I know they like Vermette.

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Old
03-21-2008, 10:49 AM
  #73
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Vermette + Ottawa's first round(24-30 overall) + Chicago's 2nd round(35-40 overall) for a 8-10 pick

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Old
03-21-2008, 10:55 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by cherith cutestory View Post
Bottom line: Ottawa will not move up in the draft unless the trade key players
On almost any other team Vermette and Meszaros are key players, so what does that mean exactly?

Whether or not a trade can be made is pure speculation however the value is there. Perhaps not for a top 4 pick, but certainly for a top 5-10 pick.

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Old
03-21-2008, 10:57 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Kaptain Bégin View Post
A very good answer, IMO. These guys don't have buzz or good value around them. From Montreal POV, I can take Vermette and your third for our 1st, but you don't get a top-10 pick with these kind of guys if your not a silly TB GM(Fedotenko for 4th overall pick). And maybe you can get a 2nd for your 1st+Emery if you want to dump him.

If I'm Jay Feaster, I will take some time to think about take Volchenkov, Vermette and a 2nd or 2rd for a top-5 pick because he must save his job and need help right now. If not, he will probably say good bye vinny in a couple of year.
No offense but how many 22 year old d men put up numbers like Meszaros 5 maybe? So in the last 4 years since he has been drafted that works out to 1.25 defenseman a draft..... You do the math. Just to rhyme off a few top 10 draft picks in the last 4 years. Brule, Pouliot, Lee, Barker, Vorabik, Ladd, Wheeler, Montoya, Wheeler, Picard, Smid, Olesz, Suter, Kostsitsyn, Setuguchi, Bourdon, Brassard, Frolik, Okposo.

Honestly how many of these guys strait up are worth more then Meszaros......

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