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Old
02-04-2004, 05:52 PM
  #26
stardog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface
I wouldn't mind seeing Rob Scuderi and Matt Murley called up either. Matt has wheels and plays a pretty decent game. He doesn't float around as much as Beech, but i think Beech should be called up because it has to be seen if this guy is capable of doing better than his last call up. I can't even remember when that was, thats how long ago it was.
I would also like to see what Scuderi has to offer. See if he is as steady as he is billed to be.

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02-04-2004, 05:54 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MrKnowNothing
, Murley, and Armstrong please.

I'll be satisfied with those three.
Wait...I only see two

Not being argumentative cuz you listen to more WBS games than I do, but what has Armstrong done to deserve a call up? Has he really earned it?

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02-04-2004, 06:18 PM
  #28
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No more than any of them else, really. No one's exactly setting the league on fire.

I just chose candidates who play games that Edzo might like.

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02-04-2004, 08:23 PM
  #29
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I'd still keep Bucky. Even though he don't score, I think most of you are giving him a bad rap.

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02-04-2004, 08:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Scarface
Webb and Simpson should not be brought up the same time, both don't offer anything but toughness, although we lack it in McKenna and well Buchberger is tough but man he can't fight, so i would hold back on them, maybe Webb i'd call up.
ok, if toughness is something we need, why shouldnt the two guys who can add toughness be brought up? Webb can hit, which most our guys cant/dont do, and Simpson can fight, which none of our guys can/are willing to do. not to mention, they will add some excitement to a game. and personally, i dont like seeing the Pens get man handled on the ice cuase no one is willing to throw their body around.

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02-04-2004, 08:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jimmy page
I'd still keep Bucky. Even though he don't score, I think most of you are giving him a bad rap.
As some (Mark Madden being one) have said, having had him here this year will pay off down the road. It's already starting to develop in some guys like Orpik and Kostopoulos.

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02-04-2004, 08:33 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by davemess
Who would you say is then?

I dont think you could play him with Orpik who is probably our best defensive defenceman simply because Orpik needs a partner who would allow him to be aggressive and make hits.

Melichar is our most steady Dman, he makes the least mistakes, plays the best positional defence of all our guys. I think he is the kind of reliable safe player that would be best able to cover for Lupaschuk.

Only other option i could think off would be Bergie.


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Originally Posted by stardog
Melichar our most solid defenseman? I think Melichar had the potential to be that but is far from it this year. He has played tentativley and not up to the standards that we expected. There are many excusable reasons for this of course, but he is our 3rd or 4th best defenseman this year. Once again, I wouldn't mind seeing Lupy get a shot, but I wouldn't replace Drake at this point. I would consider Bergevin or Focht, who just aren't capable right now, though Focht is still young and has plenty of time to improve.
i pretty much agree with stardog except about focht. melichar has made plenty of mistakes this year and some of them have been pretty blantant. he was supposed to be a bruising defenseman but he cant because of his shoulder problems. granted thats not his fault. technically this is focht's rookie year and i think he has played for the most part very well. hes been very physical and has made some smart plays, but hes also has had his share of bonehead plays but this whole team has done them this year. also about bergevin, IMO when hes not in the lineup, i feel at ease. if a guy gets passed his poke check, they fly right past him and hes left in the dust soaking his dentures. i sure hope they get rid of him.

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02-04-2004, 08:45 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by look out for orpik
i pretty much agree with stardog except about focht. melichar has made plenty of mistakes this year and some of them have been pretty blantant. he was supposed to be a bruising defenseman but he cant because of his shoulder problems. granted thats not his fault. technically this is focht's rookie year and i think he has played for the most part very well. hes been very physical and has made some smart plays, but hes also has had his share of bonehead plays but this whole team has done them this year. also about bergevin, IMO when hes not in the lineup, i feel at ease. if a guy gets passed his poke check, they fly right past him and hes left in the dust soaking his dentures. i sure hope they get rid of him.
I agree that Focht has played physical for most of the season. That is something we obviously need our defensemen to do.
Focht's lack of mobility though is astounding. He just can't skate very well and it is costing us goals against. I am also unimpressed with his defensive awareness (or lack thereof).
I understand TK can't skate well either, but he is scoring goals and has defensive awareness. A forward who has skating issues is easier to handle than a defenseman who has those same issues.Focher needs alot of improvement as his "tough play" just isn't enough to make up for his huge skating/awarness deficencies.

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02-04-2004, 09:06 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
I agree that Focht has played physical for most of the season. That is something we obviously need our defensemen to do.
Focht's lack of mobility though is astounding. He just can't skate very well and it is costing us goals against. I am also unimpressed with his defensive awareness (or lack thereof).
I understand TK can't skate well either, but he is scoring goals and has defensive awareness. A forward who has skating issues is easier to handle than a defenseman who has those same issues.Focher needs alot of improvement as his "tough play" just isn't enough to make up for his huge skating/awarness deficencies.

I like the way TK has skated since his last call-up.
No complaints.

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02-04-2004, 09:34 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Focher needs alot of improvement as his "tough play" just isn't enough to make up for his huge skating/awarness deficencies.
that can be said for a lot of our team though. just about all our guys are deficient in some way. but theyre young, and they can still learn.

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02-04-2004, 11:20 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MrKnowNothing
As some (Mark Madden being one) have said, having had him here this year will pay off down the road. It's already starting to develop in some guys like Orpik and Kostopoulos.
That's why I'm against getting rid of Buchy and Bergy.

It's already starting to pay off, our youth will be better for having them here, even if they don't chip in themselves.

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02-04-2004, 11:27 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by jimmy page
I'd still keep Bucky. Even though he don't score, I think most of you are giving him a bad rap.
People bring up the fact he hasn't scored but really, what difference would it make if he did have a few points? When you're talking about Buchberger or Mike Eastwood, scoring isn't important, its peripheral. I think he's been one of the better 4th liners we've had in quite a while.

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02-05-2004, 01:12 AM
  #38
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Here are my changes :

1. Trade Morozov . . . he hasn't done anything to warrant us paying him 1 million plus
2. trade or cut Eastwood,Buchberger,McKenna,Berevgin, Berehowsky, Bradley, Holzinger

Veteran leaderships helps in the playoffs but frankly when are we going to get there . . .let some of our young players develop into leaders is what I say . . .

Replace these guys with Beach, Sivek - when healthy, Murley, Endicott, quite scratching guys like Kraft, Surovy, Kostopoulos,Meloche, and Malone to give playing times to these older bums . . .and that's exactly what they are

On defense play Melichar, Bouileau, Strbak, Lupaschuk, Focht, Orpik, Melichar,Tarnstrom and Scuderi . . . Roszival will be back next year to help out . .. .to me that looks a hell of a lot better than send Bergevin or Berehowsky out there . . .Lupaschuk takes over on the point - helps powerplay . . .and Scuderi hopefully adds defense . . .

 
Old
02-05-2004, 02:37 AM
  #39
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Why would you get rid of every veteran? You can't have a team with no vet on it. It would demoralize the kids, whom would be getting pummeled every night, stagnating their development. I am not saying that most shouldn't go, but you at least have to have one veteran to act as liason between players and coach, or someone for the kids to look up to and seek out for advice. In 2 years, the Pens youth will have enough experience where it wouldn't be a necessity, but right now? I don't think that would help much long term.

That said: The vast majority will probably go assuming that there is a taker. Quite a few playoff teams would like to have Eastwood, Buchy, Bergevin and Berehowsky for depth. McKenna? Probably not. Holzinger? Maybe...tough call. Bradley is young still and will not go anywhere until after this season, if then.

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02-05-2004, 07:50 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmoransucks
Here are my changes :
Veteran leaderships helps in the playoffs but frankly when are we going to get there . . .let some of our young players develop into leaders is what I say . . .
. . . quit scratching guys like Kraft, Surovy, Kostopoulos,Meloche, and Malone to give playing times to these older bums . . .and that's exactly what they are
On defense play Melichar, Bouileau, Strbak, Lupaschuk, Focht, Orpik, Melichar,Tarnstrom and Scuderi . . . Roszival will be back next year to help out . .. .to me that looks a hell of a lot better than send Bergevin or Berehowsky out there . . .Lupaschuk takes over on the point - helps powerplay . . .and Scuderi hopefully adds defense . . .
I wouldn't go as far to call them bums. For some reason, however, there are a ton of people who believe that we need to carry these older players. I'm sure, somewhere out there, there is a reason, something that supports their conclusion, other than (my favorite one) you can't play in the NHL without veterans. Did you every notice that when ANYONE provides the reasons why you can't it usually is presented (very logically) as . . . "you just can't . . . it just isn't done."
To suggest otherwise, you are presented as a fool.
We've had this argument since before this season began. And, although I don't disagree that a couple "mentors" might be good for a young team, I still have not wavered on the "too many mentors" don't contribute anything but some "lifer-types" hanging around making another half-million to a million as their career fades away.
The "mentors" for the most part should be the coaches and management. They don't "have" to be players who haven't had any major impact in the hockey-world, themselves.

There have been major startups in the business world by freethinking younger people who if they listened to some of their "mentors" would have never tried it. I'm not discouraging "mentoring" . . . as a matter of fact, I think it applies in the sports world as much as it does in sports. But it shouldn't put a stop to a "thinking out of the box" approach to building a hockey team.

What will really be the telling tale on the "presumed value" of the Penguin's "mentors" will be by deadline day. If Eastwood, Bergevin, Buchberger, Holtzinger, McKenna and/or Berehowsky DON'T GET PICKED-UP it will go a long way in making the point that we just may have an overload of "mentor-vets" that other teams didn't find to be hat valuable.
IMO, out of the above names I see only Berehowsky "possibly" being picked up. When (and if) that happens it will be interesting to see the comments from our "we must have vets and mentors" contingent.

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Old
02-05-2004, 08:17 AM
  #41
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kutda,

youre trying to make it sound like those advocates, myself being one, want all the vets currently on the team to be one this team. but dont you think that people saying to get rid of McKenna and Holzinger all the time means that we dont agree with how many there are? if it were up to me (and i know other posters have said hte same), we would have eastwood and buchberger, holzinger and mckenna would be gone, and bergevin played about once every 5 games.

you said that the coaches should be the ones mentoring these guys. the thing is, the coaches have enough to worry about. they cant be there for every player all the time. one of hte things the vets can do is pull aside the young guy and talk to them. while you are right, coaches should be mentors, they cant always be there. i dont think anyone would disagree that too many mentors doesnt help, but who is to say those people that support the mentor idea want 6-7 of them on the team?

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02-05-2004, 08:51 AM
  #42
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Does anyone else remember a couple of seasons ago, there was a Colorado playoff game televised, and they had put mikes on a couple of players. One sequence showed old, decrepit Dave Reid, in his last season in the NHL, lecturing hot-shot forward prospect Alex Tanguay on how to angle the defensemen when breaking out of the defensive zone.

That's the kind of mentoring veterans are there for. Coaches don't have time to do teach during games; they have to match and change lines, draw up set plays, look for weaknesses in their opponent's game. Practices can only simulate a real game up to a point. These minor issues -- tricks of the trade, so to speak -- this is where veteran players can really help out. Not only will they be better positioned to notice such flaws, but they're there to point it out immediately. Tanguay threw a beautiful break-out pass his very next shift to spring Hejduk on a breakaway.

Further, getting a few helpful tips from an older player has less stigma attached to it than being scolded by the coach. At some point, scolding is going to get tuned out; however, the helpful advice from someone who is 'on your side' probably won't.

And then there's intangibles -- work ethic, mannerisms, a certain attitude, a way to approach the game. These things are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to teach with chalk-boards and video replays. But stick a natural leader like Buchberger in an NHL lockerroom, and sooner or later that attitude will spread. Imitation is a premier learning tool, but you need someone to imitate first.

McKennas and Holzingers, I could care less about. But keep guys like Eastwood and Buchberger around -- they're not eating up valuable ice time anyway, and their peripheral contributions outweigh their on-ice shortcomings by a wide margin, IMHO.

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02-05-2004, 09:00 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KungFuPenguin
But keep guys like Eastwood and Buchberger around -- they're not eating up valuable ice time anyway, and their peripheral contributions outweigh their on-ice shortcomings by a wide margin, IMHO.
i dont think their on ice shortcomings are that bad. buchberger is at leas willing to fight, and eastwood's face offs do come in handy (especially since we've been so bad at them for years).

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02-05-2004, 01:44 PM
  #44
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I'd keep Eastwood and Buchberger too...

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02-05-2004, 05:59 PM
  #45
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Don't know where else to post this, and don't think it warrants a new thread, but I think it fits in with the whole deal of veterans and player transactions, and seeing as the recall of Drew Fata belongs in this thread, I just thought..ok, I'm rambling.

The WBS Penguins have released David Karpa.

Quote:
Karpa, 32, recorded 11 points (3+8) and 43 penalty minutes in 29 games this season with the Penguins.

The 6-1, 210-pound native of Regina, Saskatchewan was signed by the Penguins to an American Hockey League contract on January 16. He left the team on Monday and will play in Russia.
http://wbspenguins.com/News%20Room/T...rpa%20Gone.asp

A little surprising, seeing as he's been such an important player for WBS, but I guess the offer from Russia was too good to pass up.

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02-05-2004, 06:42 PM
  #46
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wasnt he only on a limited game contract anyways?

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02-05-2004, 07:16 PM
  #47
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He was on a tryout contract, but was signed to a minor league contract about a monthe ago when his 25-game tryout period expired.

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Old
02-06-2004, 09:59 AM
  #48
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Does anyone else remember a couple of seasons ago, there was a Colorado playoff game televised, and they had put mikes on a couple of players. One sequence showed old, decrepit Dave Reid, in his last season in the NHL, lecturing hot-shot forward prospect Alex Tanguay on how to angle the defensemen when breaking out of the defensive zone. That's the kind of mentoring veterans are there for. Coaches don't have time to do teach during games.
I'm not "really" against mentors. Virtually anyone can benefit from having a mentor. And, there are many athletes have identified a special person who provided what they needed to develop as a person and as an athlete.

An example right in our city is Jagr, pointing out Lemieux, Trottier and Kehoe as his mentors to improve his on-ice skills. Yet Brian Trottier says his mentor was his father, Eldon. Gretzky claimed Ace Baily was his mentor.

Quote:
Coaches don't have time to do teach during games; they have to match and change lines, draw up set plays, look for weaknesses in their opponent's game. Practices can only simulate a real game up to a point. These minor issues -- tricks of the trade, so to speak -- this is where veteran players can really help out. Not only will they be better positioned to notice such flaws, but they're there to point it out immediately.
I can't remember who the Owner or GM was that said . . . If you're going to war you want a few guys around that picked up a gun once in a while. Surrounding yourself with quality people with good intentions is one of the major keys to success in no matter what your venture. Whoever he was, he was correct.

The organization that will put the time and effort into their players is the organization that will reap the rewards in the long run. Teams should invest time and effort into their players and I think that with Mario Lemieux, Craig Patrick and the staff that they have been assembling with the coaches both here and at WB/S, the scouting group . . . that everyone (including Edzo) are one of the strongest, most capable groups as there is in the NHL. A lot of the "real mentors" we never hear about. While I will agree that coaches (for the most part) don't have that much time, during the game, to teach . . . teaching, mentoring still remains their number one job. Coaching, by definition is one who instructs players in the fundamentals of a competitive sport and directs team strategy.

Do you remember Johan Hedberg's comment about how goaltending coach Warren Strelow was a major key to his development? Strelow's work was invaluable to the Sharks. Strelow is known thru out the hockey world as one of the best teachers AND mentors of young goaltenders and he has a rather impressive lists of past proteges . . . Peeters, Malarchuk, Riggin, Sean Burke, Martin Brodeur and since MIRACLE is now showing . . . Jim Craig. Recently with those above are Hedberg, Kiprusoff, Nabokov and Toskala. That's a mentor. That's a teacher with a track record of results. As far as I know he's still preforming his work not IN the NHL per say.



Quote:
Further, getting a few helpful tips from an older player has less stigma attached to it than being scolded by the coach. At some point, scolding is going to get tuned out; however, the helpful advice from someone who is 'on your side' probably won't.
**, I'm pretty sure you won't take any offense to my comments on this because none is intended. I hope you others (out there, don't either) . . .
I think that older players can really offers TIPS, if it is in their demeanor to do so. However, there are some older people in the business world that have some high positions that would NEVER offer those type of TIPS. I'm pretty sure that there may be hockey players that wouldn't offer them up, either. I am asumming that Lemieux and Patrick wouldn't want those types in the mix . . . but how do YOU GUYS know who is a mentor and who isn't a mentor?

As to the scolding . . . YIKES! I think the word scolding should never be part of any manager's job trait. To me, scolding is criticism for a fault that is unduly exacting . . . not only is it excessive but highly ineffective in anything from coaching to raising children. I see people that were raised that way that are scared for life. The other term you used . . . help from someone who is "on your side", IMO . . . these guys (from Mario down to the towel-boys) had all better be on the same side. It isn't a me against "yuins" type thing. However, there certainly isn't any objection from me to helpful OTJ advice.

Quote:
And then there's intangibles -- work ethic, mannerisms, a certain attitude, a way to approach the game. These things are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to teach with chalk-boards and video replays. But stick a natural leader like Buchberger in an NHL lockerroom, and sooner or later that attitude will spread. Imitation is a premier learning tool, but you need someone to imitate first.
I don't disagree with that either. As to Kelly Buchberger's contibution . . . as a natural leader in the lockerroom . . . I really haven't a clue. I've never been in the lockerroom. I've have read a bio on him that indicated one of his intagibles was that he could be the kind of player who can help teach the next generation about being a winner and a leader. That was written three years ago while he was with the Kings. In that same book that wrote that about Buchberger they said about Eastwood that, he can make things happen but seems to need prodding . . . their guess was that he wore out his welcome in St. Louis.

I guess what I can't determine the most is . . . how YOU GUYS make the determination who is, and who isn't, a good mentor/teacher. What makes Buchberger good and Bergevin not so good? What makes Bergevin so good and McKenna not so good? What makes Holtzinger such a bad mentor to so many of you? IMO, this season is about teaching and learning. Could more be taught to Beech, Lupaschuk, Sivek, Armstrong, Endicott and the like if they were here rather than in WB/S?
That's why I am more in agreement, every day that these guys "in charge" know a lot more than I do about it. So, I defer to what they are doing as being acceptable.

For right now, I do, anyway.

However, I want to leave it open for massive onslaught of criticism in the future . . . it things don't work out right.


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Old
02-06-2004, 10:14 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez






I guess what I can't determine the most is . . . how YOU GUYS make the determination who is, and who isn't, a good mentor/teacher. What makes Buchberger good and Bergevin not so good? What makes Bergevin so good and McKenna not so good? What makes Holtzinger such a bad mentor to so many of you? IMO, this season is about teaching and learning. Could more be taught to Beech, Lupaschuk, Sivek, Armstrong, Endicott and the like if they were here rather than in WB/S?
well, i dont think anyone has ever said bergevin wasnt a leader, just that they wish he got less ice time or played less games. orpik has said many times he has learned a lot from bergevin.
holzinger, i dont recall ever hearing anything about leadership from him to be honest.
McKenna, well, hes not a leader. he's a joker. he pulls pranks and cheers the players up when they feel down. i wouldnt classify that as a leader, its much more like a good friend.

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02-06-2004, 12:10 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
orpik has said many times he has learned a lot from bergevin.
holzinger, i dont recall ever hearing anything about leadership from him to be honest.

and whats ironic is that bergevin makes more mistakes than orpik

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